There is no such thing as "Just defend!" anymore...

Mira Arya Enthe··67 votes·4,239 views

So I was playing a game where we were frustratingly behind because somebody thought Kindred was not only viable but also into Shaco, and I noticed another reason why snowball is as bad as it is.

There is no more "Just defend!" in this game. In the past, if the enemy got Baron, had a large lead or things were going bad, I remember people spamming "Just defend!" in chat, the strategy was to attempt to defend your base until Baron wore off or the enemies made some mistake of you could fight on advantageous grounds, etc.

That doesn't exist anymore. Toxic bullshit like Zz'Rot, and the fact that Baron/Dragon(s) are so strong, plus the increased value of jungle camps, makes a defensive turtle worthless. Even if your team has good waveclear and poke, and good counter engagement, if you defend the enemy will just multiple their lead by a thousand percent off of the absurd jungle camps, grab free Inferno/Elder drakes, Barons, bar you in with Zz'Rots that do a billion damage to your turret if you miss one minion, that you cannot counterplay without first fighting them. But even if you do fight them the Zz'Rot keeps pumping out minions during that fight.

Overall, defense is no longer possible in this game. Stalling tactics are no less strategic than team fighting or split pushing. It is another aspect of the game that has vanished. This in my opinion is more responsible for snowball than damage creep, lack of tanks, first tower blood or even Dragons(by themselves).

I remember clearly how before, if your team was behind, you could turtle up. Let three carries soak off of three lanes exp, keep your tank/support around for counter engage and just wait out the bad situation. Which forced the enemy to siege you down. If they engaged it was a high risk for them with the reward of a win, but you had plenty of opportunity to win that engagement with counter engagement and turret advantage.

Now no interaction is even needed from them. If you DARE focus on defense, Baron is now so strong, Elemental/Elder drakes now exist, Zz'Rot now exists and jungle farm is so valuable, that they can make their small victory/lead into a game ending victory/lead with minimal interaction and almost no counterplay.

What do you all think? Do neutral objectives + Zz'Rot make defense too ineffective and non-interactive lead increasing too effective?

Because in my opinion, no other factor contributes to the snowball meta more than removing the primary strategy for when you are behind. Yes, contributes more than even damage creep.

60 Comments

dunder kill37 votes

Because there was a time where "just defend" was the meta. It was that time where the tier two towers actually gave shields and games consisted of a Xerath and Ziggs on opposing teams wave clearing at each other.

This meta was absolutely god awful. Games would regularly reach 50-60 minutes and the entire game was the most insanely boring snoozefest of all time. It was absolutely impossible to do anything with a lead.

So I'm glad the "just defend" and "stall for lategame" meta is gone. It can stay dead forever

Ahristocats13 votes

there was a time where froggen would make him team comeback in season 2 against m5 everytime by using anivia and waveclearing with ult and making the game going to 70 min

except it didn't work everytime if you had a good comp to split push/force fight like with gragas ulti and had multiple GA

https://youtu.be/KxQ0MK3oOkE?t=3083

so yeah, there was a time where "just defend" made you able to defend but not everytime

dunder kill2 votes

Until you had a ziggs who would just throw his ult to the lane you were trying to splitpush and one-shot your stacked wave. Honestly this is more of a case of 'member berries where we perceive that we were happy with that meta at the time when in reality everyone hated it

Ahristocats4 votes

because riot increased ziggs ulti damage to creeps by 400% or something like that, he didn't have that before

dunder kill1 votes

He still one shots waves with like 2, maybe 2.5 items lol

Ahristocats5 votes

Nop, he cant OS melee creeps and he needs to approach the enemy team to OS ranged creeps

he can maybe 2S melee creeps but you still have ranged creeps to push

dunder kill1 votes

He can one shot melees easily with just his ult. You have to position it so the melees are in the center blast radius and the casters are on the edge. The only thing he cant one shot is cannons at full hp

Ahristocats4 votes

{quoted}

He can one shot melees easily with just his ult.

first his ulti has a long cd second they made his ulti damage increased by 400% to minions in season 4 ask meddler why idk third without this his ulti would oneshot creeps in late game, but not in mid game with 150/200 or 300 ap

dunder kill1 votes

He does lmao. If you dont believe me just go in to practice mode and fast forward the time

Ahristocats2 votes

go into a practice mode and test his 400% damage ulti on minions?

k

ChaoticPinecone1 votes

I dont know if this is an endorsement or not. I dont think many people would say Froggen waveclearing for 70 minutes was a good thing. And yeah - you can splitpush or force a fight, but that required a specific team (a splitpusher who gets a lead and is able to 1v1 or someone like Gragas, who is one of the few champions who can force a misposition).

And I mean, the game was 22-5 near the end. I personally dont think a game that is 22-5 or a game where M5 had a 20k gold lead at 40 minutes should take that long. You shouldnt need a 20k gold lead AND a Gragas to break the base just because the enemy picked Anivia.

Ahristocats1 votes

then what should you do?

IT'S A STRATEGY GAME if you pick something to turtle you should turtle, anivia was the only one doing this in s2 due to how her ulti was working

so what you're saying is that if you pick something for a strat you shouldn't be able to do this strat even if the enemy team doesn't have something to counter your strat

ChaoticPinecone1 votes

What the hell are you talking about? When did I say "if pick something for a strat you shouldn't be able to do this strat"?

If you pick something to turtle, you should be able to turtle in reasonable circumstances. Maybe a few kills behind, maybe a few thousand gold behind. When you pick a strat, you should have to play reasonably competitively to execute that strat effectively. You cant just go, "I'm playing Anivia to turtle!", have all 3 lanes and the jungle matchup lose, then still be able to turtle for the next 15 minutes.

Ahristocats1 votes

{quoted}

If you pick something to turtle, you should be able to turtle in reasonable circumstances

this is reasonable

{quoted} You cant just go, "I'm playing Anivia to turtle!", have all 3 lanes and the jungle matchup lose, then >still be able to turtle for the next 15 minutes.

you can, and if you think it's easy to do then i dare you to try but too bad we can't play in s2 anymore it didn't work out everytime, and gragas wasn't the only one who could stop this

ChaoticPinecone1 votes

Well, I shouldnt say you cant - CLG.EU did. It didnt always work, but no strategy has a 100% winrate. But things like this shouldt happen. You shouldnt be able, by virtue of picking one champion, be able to stall out a game for 15 minutes when you get dumpstered for the first 30 against equally-if-not-more skilled opponents who are playing vastly better than you in almost every aspect of the game.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

No... that's wrong. That meta with Ziggs and Xerath happened in Season 4, well before turrets had shields.

Zenthon Prime1 votes

It happened twice. First time was Summer S4, second time was Spring S5 (with the tower shields). That said, the second time was largely limited to high ELO and Korea I think; don't remember it being too bad here in SIlver.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

Hhm, guess that's why I don't remember it, I'd only made it to plat 1 in season 5.

BALDG1VEN BOOMER4 votes

Rather have a 50-60 "snooze fest" than a game ending by 20 mins. I came to play League not gg ff20

Also I find this pretty contradicting that is the top comment on this thread, what exactly does this community want if 60 mins is a snooze fest but 20 mins is too fast?

Sraeg20133 votes

I remember how I did a 2v5 penta with pre-rework Cassio, while enemies tried to push down the mid inhib tower with the rest of my team dead.

It was only possible, because back then towers weren't obliterated in 2 seconds.

If I happened to find myself in an identical situation in the current state of the game, not only I'd die instantly in the initial 2v2, but possibly my tower would be down before me. From full HP.

It's feels nice to outplay your opponents and save the match from a certain doom.

It doesn't feel nice when everybody is running around with permanent +30% damage boosts and spellshields, while having minions and champions that out-range towers.

Skyphic 18 votes

i think baron needs to be nerfed.

if my adc decides to suicide 30 minutes in id like to know that i wont lose the entire game because they just got a free baron and can pretty much end the game off that.

Mira Arya Enthe3 votes

Baron, Dragon, Zz'Rot and Neutral camp value in my opinion are more responsible for the snowball meta than anything else. There is no value in defending anymore. Making being behind completely hopeless unless the enemies are potatoes and screw their lead.

Amasa Delano1 votes

TIL I play against a lot of potatoes.

Keira Helsh10 votes

Yeah, some of my favorite moments playing league come from hunkering down and pulling off the most intense defenses and turning it around into a victory. These days I never feel like games are even close anymore. Like, if we're winning, we're STOMPING, if we're losing we're getting stomped.

Twitch Chat3 votes

Nostalgia goggles gotta be pretty thick to make the old pre baron change "Ziggs stalls a game for 30 minutes" meme be one of your favorite moments.

Woodakoodashooda5 votes

The one complaint I have about baron is the range the cannon minion gets from it. It can demolish turrets from outside the turret's range and your team can hunker down around the turret, but if anyone DARES attacking it, they get collapsed upon by the enemy.

Mira Arya Enthe4 votes

I know, I didn't know this was fucking Nexus Siege, Why the fuck can a cannon minion siege my turret from the fucking Crystal Scar, over TT, through Howling Abyss, Across Murder Bridge and down my Nexus Throat!?!!?

BakedLotion1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Chocolate Frost,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3cOL46U0,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-02-22T08:36:46.113+0000)

The one complaint I have about baron is the range the cannon minion gets from it. It can demolish turrets from outside the turret's range and your team can hunker down around the turret, but if anyone DARES attacking it, they get collapsed upon by the enemy.

no its thhe fact that minions basically become invincible with baron

Chaos Milk Tea5 votes

Baron is a siege tool. It's MEANT to break defense strategies.

As for zzrot... um... build your own. It goes both ways, and the zzrot under tower is much harder to remove than the one in the bush.

People also fail to change their build paths when losing, where it is better to focus defense.

That said, I WOULD like if there were come clearer goals for a defending team, even if they weren't sure shots. Just some courses of action or items to build that you were confident were boosting your chances.

Twitch Chat4 votes

I think zzrot factors into it about 0% considering even nerfed it's still better for pushing and controlling waves than sieging. Overall ability to just defend these days comes down to which team has control of side waves rather than do you have an anivia or some other gay waveclear mage which I consider to be infinitely better.

Votable Jester1 votes

Issue is there's basically no way the defending team can keep control of the side waves as they have to take a longer path between the lanes or risk being picked off.

Twitch Chat1 votes

It's hardly a perfect system but it's better than they have waveclear so we can't end ever. Ideally there would be some kind of split pushing rework that allowed splitpushing to eliminate the need for such a powerful baron buff while doing away with the uninteractive nature of splitting right now.

Its All Skillzz3 votes

yea trying to stop baron empowered minions is like trying to kill tryndamere while he is ulted. it really cant be done. baron now went from an ok buff to your offensive power into a oh now the minions are unkillable and do shit tons of damage to towers. and the team who has a huge lead has control of everything on the map going out to ward as support can easily end up to caught out an die now games is 4 vs 5. honestly a team with a minor lead can snowball so out of control with no chance to come back. once you lose bot tower/mid tower you no longer have control of your blue/red and also dragon. ive seen teams get baron an completely steamroll the base with just the buff after 1 failed team fight. nice to know all the work you put in for last 25 mins or so goes to waste cause of 1 bad team fight where you die an they just push the nexus with baron.

Swaid3 votes

Well said; turtles really have gone extinct.

metabuser1 votes

Rammus Ok

Sahn Uzal2 votes

Yes, Baron is probably too strong. I don't think Dragons are an issue, other than Infernal drake. Fuck that thing. ZZ'Rot is fine tbh. You can also build it to defend, remember? Not as effective as it once was, but it still does the job.

Yes, it is harder to defend now. But you're not looking at the whole picture. item 3085 is build on ADC's very often now, and interacts with Crit Chance. Riot is also not scared to hand out waveclear left and right Gangplank Ryze Leblanc for example. And those who do not have Waveclear can still itemise it (Titanic Hydra, Runaans were not there/not as good in earlier seasons)

Ahristocats2 votes

congrat friend, you realised that the game is shit now

Mira Arya Enthe1 votes

I made the "League, then vs now" post that reached 350+ upvotes. I think I have known for a while.

Spoofghoul2 votes

the zzrot change was a mistake they should revert it

i build it on Sion get 7k hp and the big voidling does like 80% of a turrets healthbar

thats so dumb

they removed the defensive strenght of zzrot, it is now purely an offensive push item since you need to put it close to turrets and makes defense impossible miss 3 voidlings and your turret dies or, if facing someone like a 7k hp sion miss the big one and youre screwed

i can put it near enough to the enemy turret in a 1/3/1 or 4/1 and they have to respond or else their turret dies as soon as the wave is pushed in

meanwhile my 7k ass is helping my team dive them when they are 4 man defending tanking their turret for like 7 years lol, it's absurd and even if they are 5 man i can put itclose enough so that it will destroy both turret and inhib while we are fighting it preposterous

there is no defense against it really

before it would take a while to build up waves or do some damage but the voidlings had tripple the range and a lot more hp so it was also good for defense, right now it just oneshots your base lol

Unironic SJW2 votes

This is what you guys wanted. You all hated that waveclear mages could actually defend against siege or that teams could fight back when losing so we changed Baron to make it impossible to defend against, changed dragons to make them INCREDIBLE snowball tools, and changed the jungle to favor ganking and snowballing.

Paroe3 votes

{quoted}

This is what you guys wanted. You all hated that waveclear mages could actually defend against siege or that teams could fight back when losing so we changed Baron to make it impossible to defend against, changed dragons to make them INCREDIBLE snowball tools, and changed the jungle to favor ganking and snowballing.

Anivia Morgana Orianna*Taliyah Zyra By reducing the amount of overall AP possible, very few champions can actually compete without snowballing. It makes certain mages VERY important for stall comps, and makes base damage and good farming hugely important.

*Orianna is still one of the best mages in the game.

The Yetii Rider2 votes

Yes, defending is not only ineffective, it's largely boring. You just sit in your base and clear waves with little to no PVP interaction or objective testing. Barely even any warding.

It's not really a game at that point, which is why people should just surrender. But NA refuses to do that so we just sit and wait to lose instead.

Not that I think this needs to be changed. If you're winning the game, you should win the game. Comebacks should be a result of skillful plays, not of the enemy team farming up to close the gold gap.

Tormyth1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3cOL46U0,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-02-22T08:14:31.834+0000)

So I was playing a game where we were frustratingly behind because somebody thought Kindred was not only viable but also into Shaco, and I noticed another reason why snowball is as bad as it is.

There is no more "Just defend!" in this game. In the past, if the enemy got Baron, had a large lead or things were going bad, I remember people spamming "Just defend!" in chat, the strategy was to attempt to defend your base until Baron wore off or the enemies made some mistake of you could fight on advantageous grounds, etc.

That doesn't exist anymore. Toxic bullshit like Zz'Rot, and the fact that Baron/Dragon(s) are so strong, plus the increased value of jungle camps, makes a defensive turtle worthless. Even if your team has good waveclear and poke, and good counter engagement, if you defend the enemy will just multiple their lead by a thousand percent off of the absurd jungle camps, grab free Inferno/Elder drakes, Barons, bar you in with Zz'Rots that do a billion damage to your turret if you miss one minion, that you cannot counterplay without first fighting them. But even if you do fight them the Zz'Rot keeps pumping out minions during that fight.

Overall, defense is no longer possible in this game. Stalling tactics are no less strategic than team fighting or split pushing. It is another aspect of the game that has vanished. This in my opinion is more responsible for snowball than damage creep, lack of tanks, first tower blood or even Dragons(by themselves).

I remember clearly how before, if your team was behind, you could turtle up. Let three carries soak off of three lanes exp, keep your tank/support around for counter engage and just wait out the bad situation. Which forced the enemy to siege you down. If they engaged it was a high risk for them with the reward of a win, but you had plenty of opportunity to win that engagement with counter engagement and turret advantage.

Now no interaction is even needed from them. If you DARE focus on defense, Baron is now so strong, Elemental/Elder drakes now exist, Zz'Rot now exists and jungle farm is so valuable, that they can make their small victory/lead into a game ending victory/lead with minimal interaction and almost no counterplay.

What do you all think? Do neutral objectives + Zz'Rot make defense too ineffective and non-interactive lead increasing too effective?

Because in my opinion, no other factor contributes to the snowball meta more than removing the primary strategy for when you are behind. Yes, contributes more than even damage creep.

defending is still possible just a lot harder to pull off and requires a lot more game knowledge than it used to

Candoodle1 votes

it's always the afk top laner perma farming that says this too

meanwhile enemy team has a camille and a leona or some other stupid hard engage that can easily dive turret and then when you die top is like

"why engage?"

WHY ENGAGE?? maybe type that in all chat so enemy team can reply "because we a dive comp and as soon as we had vision of your dumb *** not threatening any objectives that was our go button"

Teemodanegro1 votes

Riot gave a lot a siege power into the game, mountain drake / infernal / baron. And reduced the overall strength of towers and this is what you get.

Towers that melt like cheese and shoot meatballs.

Rocnation981 votes

I don't know about you guys, but in Bronze i can just defend all the time :P

GigaPube1 votes

im sure you noticed all of that before a single normal game where the enemy jungler is 7 divisions higher than the other, which is actually a much bigger contributor as to why you lost as opposed to it just being kindred vs shaco, especially in silver tier

KoKoboto1 votes

Lmfao it's so funny like the game is pretty much over by 10 minutes. One team has gotten kills and snowballed, they take all your towers and EASILY take baron at 20 minutes and proceed to take more towers and then you lose gg.

Arakadia1 votes

Doesn't sound very funny to me.

Autrah Fang1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3cOL46U0,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-02-22T08:14:31.834+0000)

somebody thought Kindred was into Shaco

i need Wolf x Shaco fanart stat! for when Lamb isn't around. since both of them are into Shaco now apparently. XD

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