Are we going to see another new non-tank AP jungler again?

Linna Excel·Apr 25, 2015·6 votes·1,228 views

I was just thinking, why does the magus enchantment exist? Eve doesn't build AP anymore. I dunno what she builds. Mumu and Sej are tanks and cinderhulk is so much better on them even if they did build AP (they usually don't). Elise usually builds cinderhulk too, as does everyone who is played as a tank. Shaco builds AD right? Kayle doesn't jungle much anymore and Teemo jungle is weird, both could just go devourer as well. Fiddlesticks is a fine jungler but having an item exist that only 1 jungler can justify buying seems wrong.

So I started to ask myself, why doesn't riot try to make another AP jungler? There's clearly a niche that needs to be filled.

22 Comments

Voluug13Apr 25, 201511 votes

Diana jungle is pretty good, but suffers from kinda lame pre-6 ganks, but her ganks and scalings are crazy after that.

Karthus is prone to being counterjungled but once he starts his ganks are ridiculous thanks to Wall of Pain.

The current problem isnt the item itself, its that most AP champions dont have the sustain or sustained damage to jungle properly. Also, the jungle is not friendly on mana intensive users. Of course, a good Magus enchantment could fix, or break AP jungling. Imagine early Anivia ganks of doomy dooms with dat wall.

AbyssphereApr 25, 20152 votes

{quoted}

jungle is pretty good, but suffers from kinda lame pre-6 ganks, but her ganks and scalings are crazy after that.

is prone to being counterjungled but once he starts his ganks are ridiculous thanks to Wall of Pain.

The current problem isnt the item itself, its that most AP champions dont have the sustain or sustained damage to jungle properly. Also, the jungle is not friendly on mana intensive users. Of course, a good Magus enchantment could fix, or break AP jungling. Imagine early ganks of doomy dooms with dat wall.

When people ask for AP junglers they don't mean every mage should be able to jungle - they would have to do insane things to Magus to make standard mages good junglers, because they're just not suited to it in any way for the most part. But there are a variety of junglers with dominant AP scaling who still build either Cinderhulk or even Warrior (Eve) and that's something I think needs addressing.

The lack of mana sustain screws over people like Diana whose kits are otherwise great for the jungle and Elise/Eve are huge messes that need justification to build the stat they primarily scale with.

If they reduced the CDR on Magus and replaced it with some mana regen, then changed Elise and Evelynn so that they could justifiably build AP, you'd have quite a bit more use for Magus already. Personally having an AP jungle pool of just Diana, Elise, Nidalee, Fiddlesticks and Evelynn would be good enough for me. Kayle and Teemo too if they could fit them in there.

Aych PiiApr 25, 20155 votes

Some Eves build AP, it's generally considered better. Elise will be back someday. Nunus build Magus when they understand the true bliss that is full AP Nunu. Shaco can build either, like Evelynn, but in his case AD is usually better if you're skilled.

The problem isn't really that mage junglers don't exist so much that any mage that isn't tanky and doesn't have immense sustain (compare Elise and Fiddlesticks ) is going to be slaughtered by the S5 jungle on their first clear, since they tend to have less favorable cooldowns and mana costs than melee AD champs.

Linna ExcelApr 26, 20151 votes

I'm not sure what Eve builds in the jungle anymore. I build AP. I saw Pants are Dragon go Tank. Some people go bork into tank and pick up a TF if fed.

I agree that tanky and sustain is an issue. So maybe we need another AP jungler with enough sustain to do a clear but not so tanky they just build full tank like Sej does.

2OmnkAKGi9Apr 27, 20151 votes

When I go Eve I usually build item 3153 item 3707 item 3078 item 3274 item 3124 item 3146 item 3031 and it works enough.

Poldy ScarecrowApr 25, 20152 votes

Agreed on all points OP. Really hoping the next Jungler is a genuine AP jungler ( not midlaner or tank ). Has lots of potential imo

Two Right Wings Apr 25, 20152 votes

Ao Shin :^]

Jungle Lux GodApr 26, 20152 votes

I think we might see AP junglers eventually, but right now the game really isn't able to support AP junglers because Magus really isn't strong.

We can basically look at there being four kinds of junglers, one for each item: AD/Bruiser junglers that build Warrior, Tank/Bruiser junglers that build Cinderhulk, AP/Support junglers that build Magus, and On-hit champs that run Devourer. We need to look at how each kind of jungler will fare in the jungle between their starting clears, mid-game clears, and their impact later on.

Warrior: junglers that run the Warrior enchant will normally clear pretty well on the first clear, especially considering they are going to have the AD to clear early. Warrior will also greatly help champions clear the jungle throughout the early-mid game through its stats, and because the stats will apply on both their auto attacks and, in most cases, their abilities. Because these junglers can auto attack and will get faster clears and either get tankier (bruisers) or get sustain through lifesteal (AD's like assassins), then Warrior is going to allow most champions to do a lot better in the jungle than other champions.

Cinderhulk: more tankiness and faster clears. More tankiness means you can take more damage, and the clear speed off of immolate will make a lot of champions way faster, in some cases clear so much faster that any abilities that these champs use will actually have their mana costs restored simply because of Machete regen.

Devourer: you are getting a lot more clear speed just from auto attacks. This means that you don't have to spend much mana, if any, to clear camps, at least once you start getting devourer sufficiently stacked. Most users of this item also build tanky after they build this, and rely on its damage for the rest of the game as their only damage source or buy physical damage so they can deal tons of damage off of two damage types. This means that these champions are going to get the same kind of value out of devourer as warrior junglers get out of warrior.

Magus: AP junglers rely a lot on their abilities to clear and not on their auto attacks. This means that these junglers need to spend mana to try and clear the jungle, and there aren't too many junglers that can efficiently clear the jungle while still being mana efficient. This also doesn't include the fact that most don't have innate sustain, and will likely have too low health to really clear. Magus will increase clear speeds, but it doesn't fix any of the other problems that AP junglers have with jungling, which is their severe lack of sustain.

It's not a problem with designing an AP jungler. It's a matter of creating an environment where an AP jungler (that isn't Nidalee or Fiddlesticks or any of the other half-dozen AP jungler exceptions that I have no idea actually work in the jungle) can actually work while still being able to positively contribute to a team.

LifeCyclesTWAApr 25, 20151 votes

Fiddlesticks Diana

/thread

Sightless66Apr 25, 20151 votes

Nidalee, Fiddlesticks, Diana, Karthus. Theoretically Elise if the eventual buffs come to her damage ratios.

KMannnnn1Apr 25, 20151 votes

I prefer Magus on Amumu . item 3724 lets me clear the jungle quickly and keep enough mana to gank pretty much freely. Yeah, Cinderhulk lets you scale into a late game unkillable tanky thing, but it's not nearly as fun as just jumping and bursting the enemy carries with an AP build.

RenailleApr 25, 20151 votes

Diana Fiddlesticks Karthus Lulu

Kayle doesn't use magus.

Slamurai JackApr 25, 20151 votes

Kayle jungle with Magus is pretty solid if you want to play a more skirmish oriented, burst and utility centered build. I usually prefer it over devourer unless it's clear I'm going to need to be the main source of DPS on our team.

And on the topic of Magus, I'm pretty sure everyone favorite Cancer Kitty Nidalee uses it as well.

Linna ExcelApr 26, 20151 votes

I totally forgot about Nidalee. Wonder why I had that mental void?

SukishooApr 25, 20151 votes

Actually with recent changes more Eves DO build AP but still not the Magus (Cinderhulk is better).

TheRainInSpainApr 25, 20151 votes

Fiddlesticks - traditional ganking AP leach tank AP jungle Diana - AP fighter, though kit more viable in a lane Fizz - the roaming fish; gank non-stop Karthus - can be counter ganked easily, one point wonder execution ultimate Shaco - oh god is he annoying whether he goes AD or AP Teemo - can go Purple or Blue, depends on how the game goes Twisted Fate - hit or miss, but one of the most annoying follow up gankers Viktor - I can see this working, kit functions as an AP fighter with shield and loads of firepower Rumble - kit better for lane, but can be stupid as an AP fighter Warwick - not an AP jungler, but could be a hybrid jungler Kassadin - same idea as Fizz, probably best crushing some poor Fiddlesticks

Stonewall showed that Heimerdinger and the PBE Ryze can make it work, though under niche circumstances.

The problem is that mages and not a bruiser/tank tend to be ranged champions, and ranged champions in general do poorly in the jungle. This is why you rarely see jungle Twitch, Jinx or Quinn, and almost 100% of the time when you do, it's some Diamond or Master who knows the ins and outs of said champion and ruins your day.

PæanApr 26, 20151 votes

Can confirm jungle rumble is awesome. Have only played 3 jungle games as him but won all 3 with a great score. His ult is so strong in jungle pathways and the jungle item gives a lot of cdr which helps a lot.

Linna ExcelApr 26, 20151 votes

I've only seen some of those champs played in the jungle. Fiddle, WW, and Shaco are the most common ones I see, with the occasional diana. I know fizz can jungle (isn't he AD now?) but I don't see it that much and the same for Teemo.

IMO the biggest issue right now (and some say magus is the biggest issue) is the meta? Why take any of those when I can take a Sej, a Naut, a Jarvin, or a Vi?

MrBuffingtonApr 26, 20151 votes

Fizz is back to AP; before he was more of an on-hit bruiser than AD carry (in the traditional sense; he build devourer and botrk and would just do massive %HP damage with his W). AP Fizz could still jungle though

Right now the meta favors either tank junglers, and occasionally early game junglers (ie. Rek'Sai, Nidalee, Lee Sin) who can shut down a tank jungler before they get too tanky to deal with (though this is more risky). Carry junglers (both AP and AD) have more trouble, since their powerspike is later in the game, when tank junglers are incredibly powerful.

Rinky DinkyApr 26, 20151 votes

Fiddlesticks Nidalee Diana

Another one would be nice