"Just kite the juggernauts."

Shroom Junkie·Sep 10, 2015·4 votes·558 views

So what you're saying is... I'm supposed to kite from melee? oohhhh I see

21 Comments

luckmallorySep 10, 20152 votes

Melees are supposed to get crushed by the juggernauts, thats their point

SaltyKrackaSep 10, 20151 votes

item 3070 Nasus

Critmaster GarenSep 10, 20152 votes

{quoted}

nasus has other problems right now. his q has a crippling bug and theyre still not disabling him until its fixed...

also, a well timed wither peels them easily.

SaltyKrackaSep 10, 20152 votes

Sure, a Nasus can peel them off of him relatively easily (i.e. haha he still has no hard CC/Garen and Darius being designed to hard fuck him), but he still has no way to actually fight them straight up or even force them to stay in fights with him.

It's amazing, really. In the design blog they talked a bunch about the genesis of the Juggernauts and how they realized they wanted to make more champions like Nasus, but totally fucking forgot that Nasus isn't just kitable, he straight up has no way to fight anybody early. He has to hard stack his Q, sustain against the constant damage and fuckery from his opponents, and basically tuck in his tail and survive lane before he starts to hit his power spikes around the time he's got FH/Sheen and some stacks under his belt.

Garen and Darius, on the other hand, hit their power spikes merely by leveling up, and perhaps picking up some of the new items they synergize so well with after they farmed the lane using their (admittedly nerfed) old lane bully powers.

And that's even before getting to the fact that Nasus is known to be terrible in teamfights, while the new Juggernauts seem to be actually designed around them.

Bears Dont CareSep 10, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3TM9XVuP,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2015-09-10T19:19:34.584+0000)

nasus has other problems right now. his q has a crippling bug and theyre still not disabling him until its fixed...

also, a well timed wither peels them easily.

What is broken on his Q?

Critmaster GarenSep 10, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bears Dont Care,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3TM9XVuP,comment-id=0000000000000001,timestamp=2015-09-10T22:18:34.079+0000)

What is broken on his Q?

if he switches targets while executing a q, which can happen in lane and during a teamfight, his q bugs out and is executed in slow motion. the animation suddenly takes 2 seconds to execute. if you cancel the animation it doesnt fix the bug. it just starts all over.

your only option is to wait it out. this makes you vulnerable to enemy aggression during the duration and you cant fight back.

its pretty messed up.

Shroom JunkieSep 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Melees are supposed to get crushed by the juggernauts, thats their point

What melees? Akali? LOL, no, melee fighters are supposed to crush most everyone. But they replace that for being melee and not being as tanky as a tank. However, these new 'juggernauts' are tanky as fuck and can still do as much, if not more damage than a normal fighter. Darius Garen Skarner are basically replacing fighters for a much tankier version that, instead of a insta-dash, get a speed boost, one even having a slow, and one having a pull... but just kite them right

luckmallorySep 10, 20151 votes

They give up all mobility for it though which is a huge thing in league. Fiora is a fighter but she has a great gap close on a low cooldown. Gnar is a fighter and he has a great gap close with a near perma slow from long range. Its a triangle and you pick two. Mobility, Tank, Damage. Pick 2

Shroom JunkieSep 10, 20152 votes

{quoted}

They give up all mobility for it though which is a huge thing in league. Fiora is a fighter but she has a great gap close on a low cooldown. Gnar is a fighter and he has a great gap close with a near perma slow from long range. Its a triangle and you pick two. Mobility, Tank, Damage. Pick 2

I get that... but Garen and Skarner still have speed boosts. Garen's is pretty slow but still enough to catch up to someone, especially with boots, even if they have a dash(assuming this isn't LeBlanc or something, and didn't hop over a wall). And Skarner's is really slow but he still has his multi-target slow which is still 45% and up to 65% at rank 5. Plus, they can still flash or ghost(though I guess everyone can do that, but just saying, it means they aren't totally immobile).

luckmallorySep 10, 20152 votes

They are more immobile than like 85 percent of the champions in league. For example, Garen/Darius will most likely never touch a good vayne/kalista/lucian/ezreal. Too much mobilty, would they obliterate them if they did catch them? yeah. Will they? probably not. i would give up half of Darius's Ult damage if they gave him a dash

Shroom JunkieSep 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

They are more immobile than like 85 percent of the champions in league. For example, Garen/Darius will most likely never touch a good vayne/kalista/lucian/ezreal. Too much mobilty, would they obliterate them if they did catch them? yeah. Will they? probably not. i would give up half of Darius's Ult damage if they gave him a dash

I'll give you Darius for one as he has no mobility(though if he gets anywhere near he can still pull them and slow them probably before they can dash away, if they can, and it will destroy Kalista's mobility). But Garen and Skarner still have speed boosts, and even though Skarner's is low he still has a slow. And to top it off they can still take flash and/or ghost and buy Boots of Swiftness(obviously works better with Garen than Skarner).

LoLKiruSep 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

What melees? Akali? LOL, no, melee fighters are supposed to crush most everyone. But they replace that for being melee and not being as tanky as a tank. However, these new 'juggernauts' are tanky as fuck and can still do as much, if not more damage than a normal fighter. are basically replacing fighters for a much tankier version that, instead of a insta-dash, get a speed boost, one even having a slow, and one having a pull... but just kite them right

Just putting it out there, nearly every melee champion will get tanky, unless their someone usually built full damage (Yi, Fiora, Yasuo, etc; mostly applies to MADCs or assassins like Akali, Zed, Talon, etc))

Darius is actually the LEAST tanky of most fighters given that he doesn't have any defensive steroids in his actual kit; he has to buy every single point of health and resistance he gets (besides the MR and armor he naturally gets per level, but every fighter gets that)

It comes down to a pretty simple nearly indisputable fact, to be viable as a melee champion in this game; you NEED to be tanky, unless you have some other way of avoiding damage or becoming a drain-tank (think Aatrox, only with good healing, like Akali); Yi has his Q making him untargetable, and meditate can greatly reduce damage during its channel, Yasuo has multiple dashes and wind wall to help him cope with projectiles, Fiora can parry literally anything, and Tryndamere can become flat out immune to death temporarily.

Shroom JunkieSep 10, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Just putting it out there, nearly every melee champion will get tanky, unless their someone usually built full damage (Yi, Fiora, Yasuo, etc; mostly applies to MADCs or assassins like Akali, Zed, Talon, etc))

Darius is actually the LEAST tanky of most fighters given that he doesn't have any defensive steroids in his actual kit; he has to buy every single point of health and resistance he gets (besides the MR and armor he naturally gets per level, but every fighter gets that)

It comes down to a pretty simple nearly indisputable fact, to be viable as a melee champion in this game; you NEED to be tanky, unless you have some other way of avoiding damage or becoming a drain-tank (think Aatrox, only with good healing, like Akali); Yi has his Q making him untargetable, and meditate can greatly reduce damage during its channel, Yasuo has multiple dashes and wind wall to help him cope with projectiles, Fiora can parry literally anything, and Tryndamere can become flat out immune to death temporarily.

I get that... but when you build full tank, maybe one damage item on Darius, and still do as much damage to kill a carry in seconds(even if that carry is squishy, a tank should not be able to do that), yeah something's wrong and kiting is not the answer...

Baby GhoulSep 10, 20152 votes

Darius, Garen, Skarner, and Mordekaiser are banned in all of my games, and my friends games. I look through friend's lists, from bronze to plat, and each one of them is banned at least once, if not all. No matter who is the first pick.

Bans should not be used to ban whoever is OP at the moment, and when they are, it tells you that the counterplay is either not there, or not as effective because of how powerful they're aloud to be. "Just kite them." is a ridiculous reply to this. You cannot always kite them, and that should not be the only effective counterplay involved. Some champions will find it easy to kite them, like a lot of ADCs for instance, but the "pick x to counter" argument just proves how broken a champion really is. When they do catch you, they do a surprising amount of damage with only one damage item. They go tanky, but still do a ton of damage. This makes them incredibly hard to poke down, much less duel. When they dive into a team fight, it hurts more than it should. All you're left with is the hope that they won't enter the battle or your lane.

Darius for instance was a pain for melee fighters before the rework, but you could still outplay him. Now since he does so much damage, and builds tanky, the margin of error is so tight against him and he's nearly invincible when fed. Furthermore choosing a melee champion in top lane should not mean an instant loss against a competent player. They aren't as mobile as glass canons, but they're able to do as much damage while building nearly full tank. That's not healthy.

Critmaster GarenSep 10, 20151 votes

nasus just has a different nieche imo.

he hard counters auto attack focused champions and teamcomps. while he loses to darius and garen (no difference to pre rework) he absolutely takes a shit on champions like jax, irelia, xin and attack speed focused ad carries.

wither and item 3110 hit these champions pretty hard. just withering a vayne from a distance without even getting into melee can have a large impact on a fight.

by the way, its not like the new fighter items dont benefit nasus either item 3057 item 3053 synergize really well, and every nasus grabs sheen anyways for some extra damage on the q.

item 3748 is also really good on nasus and synergizes with his ult. just as steraks shield passive. the hydra active actually deals around 500 damage by lategame and can be stacked on a nasus q for a really nasty hit.

ive played nasus recently, and what really fucks him at the moment is the bugged q.

if they want to buff him, imo they should give wither its old power back. it wouldnt kep him vs the other juggernauts, but solidify his nieche as attack speed counter.

maybe hitting a q could reduce the cooldown on wither. so if hed get into melee range of an attack speed focused champ like an adc, it would really fuck them over.

SaltyKrackaSep 10, 20152 votes

item 3748 is shit on Nasus. It's actually so goddamn terrible I can't believe you believe any self-respecting Nasus would build it.

Sterak's can kind of synergize with Nasus and the fact that absolutely every Nasus builds Triforce, sure (fun fact, Nasus actually prefers items that give him straight resists rather than health due to the way lifesteal and the fact that he already gets bonus health from his ult interact with them) but what's far more important for Nasus is that all of the armor items (and especially item 3110 ) he built got shot to shit in the same patch that introduced the Juggernaut items.

I'd go to champ.gg and get you some stats on the Irelia and Jax matchups, but the Q bug currently has them screwed up and I don't know how to access records from the last patches. Suffice it to say that I as a Nasus have not found those champs to be anything like a free win for Nasus.

Critmaster GarenSep 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

is shit on Nasus. It's actually so goddamn terrible I can't believe you believe any self-respecting Nasus would build it.

Sterak's can kind of synergize with Nasus and the fact that absolutely every Nasus builds Triforce, sure (fun fact, Nasus actually prefers items that give him straight resists rather than health due to the way lifesteal and the fact that he already gets bonus health from his ult interact with them) but what's far more important for Nasus is that all of the armor items (and especially ) got shot to shit in the same patch that introduced the Juggernaut items.

I'd go to champ.gg and get you some stats on the Irelia and Jax matchups, but the Q bug currently has them screwed up and I don't know how to access records from the last patches. Suffice it to say that I as a Nasus have not found those champs to be anything like a free win for Nasus.

ive absolutely destroyed these champs in lane and outside of it. its as easy to max wither and just walk away and resume stacking when they try to trade with you.

at somepoint youre gonna outtrade them.

SaltyKrackaSep 10, 20151 votes

Ah, so you've managed to actually Wither an Irelia through her stun? Fascinating.

And yes, I agree. At some point Nasus can start out trading Irelia, but he has to basically all-in on Jax, due to Jax's ult passive, W, and Q giving him far superior trades to Nasus after he hits 6.