What stops zilean from being viable?

Gigahappytown·Sep 4, 2015·4 votes·1,384 views

His E and R alone make him the best late game support uncontested and can single handedly win a game But why is he never picked nor considered viable? so strange

32 Comments

disregardableSep 4, 20153 votes

Zilean extremely unreliable, low damage stun, a weak slow/speedup and a decent revive.

Now let's look at the more popular support's kits have.

Janna - a weak speed up (passive), a knockup, a weak slow, a shield, an AD increase, a knockback, and a teamwide heal All reliable. Blitzcrank Pull, knock up, teamwide silence, tons of damage. reliable. Can slow with items. Morgana Root, shield that makes you immune to CC, teamwide stun. Can slow with items. Mostly reliable. Sona Reliable high damage poke, a heal, a shield, a weak speed up, a slow, and a teamwide stun. All reliable. Braum Strong slows, stuns, damage, gives bonus armor/mr, windwall that will auto-win trades, team knockup ultimate, all reliable.

Do you notice that literally all of them have more in their kits than Zilean? Even Taric has more in his kit than Zilean. This is why people say Zilean mid is better. If his Q can actually do damage, he just /might/ be useful for his team, but otherwise why play a champion with only 2 abilities, one of which you don't even get before 6 and the other you shouldn't even bother to level up?

HaIlMonitorSep 4, 20151 votes

I am wondering how Skills shots are considered reliable? I mean

Taric Point and click heal, Point and click stun, Armor aura, AOE AD/AP aura during ult. It is all VERY reliable but no one plays him because of numbers. (Raka out heals him, Ali is tankier with similar kit, and a lot of supports have better cc.

disregardableSep 4, 20151 votes

You usually have a pretty high success rate on landing skillshots. You should hit far more than you miss, but that's not really possible with Zil's Q.

GigahappytownSep 4, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Very Toxic Jinx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3L6RxELA,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-09-04T00:49:51.526+0000)

extremely unreliable, low damage stun, a weak slow/speedup and a decent revive.

Now let's look at the more popular support's kits have.

- a weak speed up (passive), a knockup, a weak slow, a shield, an AD increase, a knockback, and a teamwide heal All reliable. Pull, knock up, teamwide silence, tons of damage. reliable. Can slow with items. Root, shield that makes you immune to CC, teamwide stun. Can slow with items. Mostly reliable. Reliable high damage poke, a heal, a shield, a weak speed up, a slow, and a teamwide stun. All reliable. Strong slows, stuns, damage, gives bonus armor/mr, windwall that will auto-win trades, team knockup ultimate, all reliable.

Do you notice that literally all of them have more in their kits than Zilean? Even Taric has more in his kit than Zilean. This is why people say Zilean mid is better. If his Q can actually do damage, he just /might/ be useful for his team, but otherwise why play a champion with only 2 abilities, one of which you don't even get before 6 and the other you shouldn't even bother to level up?

>99 slow/speedup >weak >42 second g.a that gives more health than g.a

yes i admit his q and passive are bad

also are you not maxing e second? or capping at 40% cdr as fast as possible? thats the most effective way to play zilean

[{quoted}](name=Blue Iceborn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3L6RxELA,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-09-04T00:54:58.312+0000)

His R only revives one person--it's basically just a Guardian Angel (which, come late game, most champions already have). Contrast this with other LCS supports--Janna, Braum, Alistar, and so on--their ults are more useful late game. Janna can peel anything with her R; Braum's R can lock up an entire team; Alistar's R makes him insanely tanky, which is really strong with the rest of his kit's close quarters CC. In comparison, Zilean just doesn't offer as much. His stun is super telegraphed and his speed-up isn't particularly special (Lulu and Sivir both have speed ups). His main niche was his passive, and once that was nerfed, there wasn't any real reason to pick him over other supports with better late games. (The power of his R in late game is debatable--if someone worth saving dies late game, the teamfight, in high levels of play, will probably basically be over before the person can revive).

aoe knockback medicore heal medicoure heal strong slow and a self-buff that offers nothing to team is better than a 42 second guardian angel that revives players at full health

nice meme

yeah i know his q is rather garbage but people who are saying his e and r are bad or outclassed are talking out of their ass and straight up wrong

SouL1essSep 4, 20152 votes

{quoted}

but people who are saying his e and r are bad or outclassed are talking out of their ass and straight up wrong

Sure, his E is okay (it got nerfed hard during his "rework" lmao) and his R is good at what it does as a one-of-its-kind skill.

Sadly a champion with 2 actives is hardly considered viable against champions with 4 actives and 1 passive to work with.

GigahappytownSep 4, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Sure, his E is okay (it got nerfed hard during his "rework" lmao) and his R is good at what it does as a one-of-its-kind skill.

Sadly a champion with 2 actives is hardly considered viable against champions with 4 actives and 1 passive to work with.

what was his old e cooldown percentage etc? last time i played zilean it had somwhere around 3 second cooldown assuming you went 40% cdr which is the only viable way to build him slowed for 99% at max rank and 30 or 40% at rank 1 and boosted for the same amount and you could slow/speed boost 2 people at once which is massive

AdaloreSep 4, 20151 votes

Having PLAYED zilean recently... He can't rewind his E from full cd until he gets some CDR.

Also guys, his rewind gets stupid low cd. In the perfect edge case you can stun entire teams every 6 seconds.

SouL1essSep 4, 20151 votes

{quoted}

what was his old e cooldown percentage etc? last time i played zilean it had somewhere around 3 second cooldown assuming you went 40% cdr which is the only viable way to build him slowed for 99% at max rank and 30 or 40% at rank 1 and boosted for the same amount and you could slow/speed boost 2 people at once which is massive

Slowing for 99% for 2.5 seconds is much less effective than slowing for 55% for 5.5 seconds.

The legacy variant had much higher uptime on the haste/slow and the total distance manipulated is at least 500 units longer for a given instance of Time Warp casted. The movement speed soft cap decreases the movement speed bonus significantly; the duration was more important in the case of Time Warp.

You could always haste/slow two people at once, that hasn't changed at all. What changed most significantly is the duration of the CC, and the slow duration being cut in half decreases the power of the skill.

BârdSep 4, 20151 votes

there is no such thing as a 99% slow. Riot forgot about diminishing returns when they tried to give it to zilean,

Maximum ZileanSep 4, 20153 votes

Its just his damage in lane is very unreliable, and late game he turns into an "Ultimate bot" for the most fed carry. Also his passive currently doesn't really exist.

NekusenSep 4, 20153 votes

useless passive
his stun requires Q-W-Q, he needs to land 2 skillshots in a row on the same target

he needs

faster throwing bombs and better sticking
useful passive
lower cooldowns to make up for his lack of other damaging skills

GigahappytownSep 4, 20151 votes

{quoted}

useless passive

his stun requires Q-W-Q, he needs to land 2 skillshots in a row on the same target

he needs

faster throwing bombs and better sticking *useful passive

lower cooldowns to make up for his lack of other damaging skills

Lower cooldown on q? yes Lower cooldown on w e or r? god no they are already extremely low with a huge impact

as for q-w-q i forgot skillshots are too hard xd

NekusenSep 4, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Lower cooldown on q? yes Lower cooldown on w e or r? god no they are already extremely low with a huge impact

as for q-w-q

R is ok, E also needs lower cooldown, back in the day you could have constant speedups in 2 targets at the same time.

i forgot skillshots are too hard xd

it requires a 3 part combo, 2 being slow firing skillshots that need to hit the same target.

GigahappytownSep 4, 20151 votes

{quoted}

R is ok, E also needs lower cooldown, back in the day you could have constant speedups in 2 targets at the same time.

it requires a 3 part combo, 2 being slow firing skillshots that need to hit the same target.

well if they made his q easier to land then his e would be broken his e is fine as is although his passive needs to be reworked or a lot stronger and his q needs a longer stun duration and a shorter delay or larger hitbox

Blade of JusticSep 4, 20153 votes

Honestly, his passive is the worst in the game.

jjookkeerrSep 4, 20152 votes

almost impossible to land 2 Qs on same target, and also riot gutted him

OddysseasSep 4, 20151 votes

idk he is just strange to play

Blue IcebornSep 4, 20151 votes

His R only revives one person--it's basically just a Guardian Angel (which, come late game, most champions already have). Contrast this with other LCS supports--Janna, Braum, Alistar, and so on--their ults are more useful late game. Janna can peel anything with her R; Braum's R can lock up an entire team; Alistar's R makes him insanely tanky, which is really strong with the rest of his kit's close quarters CC. In comparison, Zilean just doesn't offer as much. His stun is super telegraphed and his speed-up isn't particularly special (Lulu and Sivir both have speed ups). His main niche was his passive, and once that was nerfed, there wasn't any real reason to pick him over other supports with better late games. (The power of his R in late game is debatable--if someone worth saving dies late game, the teamfight, in high levels of play, will probably basically be over before the person can revive).

BeatzBoyFTWSep 4, 20151 votes

His Q hitbox that prioritizes enemy champions is too small & the delay pretty much caused most champions to dash/blink/ez side-step most of Zilean's bombs.

rG ThundragSep 4, 20151 votes

attachment radius on q is too small making it hard to land bomb(s) currently its only 100 It should honestly be 115

1000angrybeesSep 4, 20151 votes

His early game is really mediocre and he doesn't bring a whole lot to the table. If he buys a lot of AP, his abilities become super irritating though. Bombs worth over 1000+ damage with an E/Q/W/Q combo and stunning them is pretty hefty, not to mention that his ult gives an ENORMOUS amount of health. But that's assuming you've been able to win lane.

His passive is really mediocre, he's somewhat unreliable, and he's really only truly useful after 6. He's not terrible, but he's not good either.

AdaloreSep 4, 20151 votes

nothing is keeping him out of play beyond the passive feeling like dead weight late game...and meta...He absolutely takes a royal dump on the new juggernaut class.

And I don't think his Q is that hard to land and stun with...The trick is that you use it defensively and suddenly zilean is hell to engage on.

Also there is a special evil glee that you get when you solo run down a enemy survivor to kill them and you get a plea for mercy in all chat. >:D

(I rush 40% cdr followed by Tear and max E second. 99% slow just rekts)

McSatanSep 4, 20151 votes

Pretty useless pre-6. All he offers is a tiny bit of poke.

Subject 5Sep 4, 20151 votes

I win a large portion of my Zilean games, you can check what I build and what I do. I max E first, instead of bombs. I am just saying, everytime I join a game and support my marksman, I tell them this: "I won't be able to help you very much early, be careful." And then they just look at me like I'm high.

LuggSep 4, 20151 votes

Short answer: His passive.

Riven MainSep 4, 20151 votes

most people end up trying to bring him bot lane where although he can poke and zone the enimies sustain. If you bring him top or mid where he can farm though, his damage scales to amazing heights and can single handed carry. Although many hate his passive it''s used so that you can have level advantage if you level 2 first you can control the lane. I would like to ask what kind of passive people would enjoy? because mana return could make him unbearable they did try making his rewind W cost 0 mana, but it made him have no weakness for early game perhaps a armor or magic resist small buff either passively or actively on his E may be a remedy like annie's shield

KougaSep 4, 20151 votes

All of this is purely IMO and observations and has very little statistical backup:

It seems to me that some Supports are very self-driven - that is, if the player in control is good, they set up their team. This is your Thresh's and Blitzcrank's; a good Thresh can make an ADC looks amazing by setting up their plays. They make their team strong by virtue of their initiation. Other Champions, however, are made strong by their team. That is, they are strong because of some combination of coordination, communication, and generally being "in sync" with the team. In these cases, it usually matters less how good the player is, but more on how good their teammates are, either in terms of skill or just communication. This is true for more than Supports, but also Champs like Shen.

Ex. 1: Good Thresh sets up hooks for Good ADC Good Support Good ADC Result: Great play

Ex. 2: Bad ADC gets caught out of position. Thresh can lantern them to safety. Good Thresh Bad Teammate Result: Positive play.

Ex. 3: Good ADC gets ganked, Good Shen Ults him to assist. With Shen taunting/tanking, they turn the fight and win. Good Shen Good ADC Result: Great play

Ex. 4: Bad ADC gets ganked. Good Shen Ults him to assist. Bad ADC continues to flee instead of using the advantage. One or both of them die. Good Shen Bad Teammate Result: Negative play

Same with Zilean. If a good Zilean uses his ult on a Bad ADC, all you have is a teammate who died twice instead of once. And then if you have a bad Zilean... who ults the wrong player... or ults someone who doesn't need it.. or worse.. ults themselves instead of a teammate... well, it just becomes very difficult to make a strong case for Zilean over these other Champions.

GigahappytownSep 4, 20151 votes

{quoted}

All of this is purely IMO and observations and has very little statistical backup:

It seems to me that some Supports are very self-driven - that is, if the player in control is good, they set up their team. This is your Thresh's and Blitzcrank's; a good Thresh can make an ADC looks amazing by setting up their plays. They make their team strong by virtue of their initiation. Other Champions, however, are made strong by their team. That is, they are strong because of some combination of coordination, communication, and generally being "in sync" with the team. In these cases, it usually matters less how good the player is, but more on how good their teammates are, either in terms of skill or just communication. This is true for more than Supports, but also Champs like Shen.

Ex. 1: Good Thresh sets up hooks for Good ADC Good Support Good ADC Result: Great play

Ex. 2: Bad ADC gets caught out of position. Thresh can lantern them to safety. Good Thresh Bad Teammate Result: Positive play.

Ex. 3: Good ADC gets ganked, Good Shen Ults him to assist. With Shen taunting/tanking, they turn the fight and win. Good Shen Good ADC Result: Great play

Ex. 4: Bad ADC gets ganked. Good Shen Ults him to assist. Bad ADC continues to flee instead of using the advantage. One or both of them die. Good Shen Bad Teammate Result: Negative play

Same with Zilean. If a good Zilean uses his ult on a Bad ADC, all you have is a teammate who died twice instead of once. And then if you have a bad Zilean... who ults the wrong player... or ults someone who doesn't need it.. or worse.. ults themselves instead of a teammate... well, it just becomes very difficult to make a strong case for Zilean over these other Champions.

thats very unlikely unless the marksman decided to stay and fight instead of running its very easy to peel teammates after reviving them just toss 2 timebombs on their corpse stuns any tanks/fighters camping the corpse then speed up the teammate when they revive they will be too fast for ranged to finish them off you shouldn't be close enough for them to focus you and if they do then your teammate can get away or kill the attackers zileans most viable build is 40% cdr and some ap like a archangels and deathcap so ult gives a good heal and you can spam all your abilitys

This just sounds like thresh/blitz are the lee sins of the support role

fuzzier95Sep 4, 20151 votes

If u can do well as zil go for it. i have carried as zil supp because my adc fed and still won. i play alot of mages that are "not viable." such as top lane, just practice enough and you will put him back in the spotlight.