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Why does everyone hate skill expression?

Hammermancer·Jan 27, 2019·6 votes·1,607 views

You all bitch about

you all loathe

People even complain about

and then you jump to the defense of and other raw stat checky champions. How are these old single minded shitheaps of champions any better? What more can you do against a fed that you could do against a fed ? The answer is nothing, you have more counterplay against a 20 kill gangplank than you do against a 12 kill nasus.

and yet the boards complain about champions who have 'answers to everything'. So is a champion weakness supposed to have no design to play around from the guy actually on the champion? is weak against getting all inned while ranged, should a just automatically kill him instead of letting him have a hop?

building against isn't skill expressive, it's flat stat checking. There is no interaction other than how long you have to kite him.

but hey, if riot buffed everyone would act like he's amazing and deserves it, until they remember why olaf is in the recycle bin.

two overloaded kits fighting eachother is more interesting, seriously how fun is it to fight a when you're on . now tell me how fun it is to fight a fed as any skill based champion in the roster

you just fucking slap him with some magic resist

11 Comments

The entire teamJan 27, 20193 votes

It’s an effort thing: they will do whatever it takes to win through the least amount of effort, tension and skill required. I believe that kind of mindset sadly began to deep into our brains the moment the championship skins were introduced.

420 gramsJan 27, 20193 votes

I think it's more of a matter of you don't feel out skilled by them, you feel like you picked the worse champion. Like play Trundle against Vayne. When she kills you, is it "OMG they're so skilled at that champion and out played me" or is it more "anytime I got on this ranged champion theyd become untargetable while using mobility to get away and use a knock back as an extra safety measure while doing tons of damage and has a passive that will outrun me if I try to escape"? It feels like the only way you win is if they make a mistake.

HammermancerJan 27, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=420 grams,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3AVqsms4,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-01-27T22:55:08.260+0000)

I think it's more of a matter of you don't feel out skilled by them, you feel like you picked the worse champion. Like play Trundle against Vayne. When she kills you, is it "OMG they're so skilled at that champion and out played me" or is it more "anytime I got on this ranged champion theyd become untargetable while using mobility to get away and use a knock back as an extra safety measure while doing tons of damage and has a passive that will outrun me if I try to escape"? It feels like the only way you win is if they make a mistake.

Vayne isn't as skill based as everyone claims honestly, her W prevents that

trundle is so outmoded I'd prefer he stays down. When trundle is strong every else in the game feels like they're the weak trundle and the trundle player is the fed vayne

Just dying and not able to actually do anything about it other than run and let the trundle hypercarry solo baron and walk at you with massive tenacity

A good modern example of this is Jax (low skill) vs Yasuo (mid-high skill) You have infinitely more counterplay against a fed yasuo than you do a fed jax, the yasuo has to do more than time a single counterstrike AOE stun. The yasuo has to think about his surroundings, mind his E consumption, time his Qs, the jax right clicks, is effectively invuln, and then three shots everyone.

420 gramsJan 28, 20191 votes

You have tons of more counter play against Jax than Yasuo.

Jax has 1 gap closer with a real cooldown. He leaps on you, you use your dash away. Boom. Jax negated. Yasuo dashes on you, you dash away. Yasuo can dash again to another enemy with virtually no cooldown.

If jax stuns you, use summoner 1 item 3140 item 3231 item 3222 to get out. You can even get tenacity. You get knocked up, you're stuck. There is literally nothing you can do.

Jax can only negate auto attacks and only on himself. He is far from invulnerable. Whereas Yasuo can negate all projectiles for him AND HIS TEAM.

Yasuo doesn't have to mind his e. With a 0.5-0.1 second cooldown and no cost, you're not punished for using the abilty.

Every champion has to pay attention to their positioning and timing of their abilities in combos. If jax is 3 shotting everyone on your team by right clicking then he has such a lead that Yasuo could also do the same.

HammermancerJan 28, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=420 grams,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3AVqsms4,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2019-01-28T00:28:37.948+0000)

You have tons of more counter play against Jax than Yasuo.

Jax has 1 gap closer with a real cooldown. He leaps on you, you use your dash away. Boom. Jax negated. Yasuo dashes on you, you dash away. Yasuo can dash again to another enemy with virtually no cooldown.

If jax stuns you, use to get out. You can even get tenacity. You get knocked up, you're stuck. There is literally nothing you can do.

noone takes cleanse, and requiring an item slot isn't skill expression, it's stat checking

oh and when you invest in that the jax for example wont buy anything

you can easily dodge the knockup if you have mobility, such as other overloaded champs have

Jax can only negate auto attacks and only on himself. He is far from invulnerable. Whereas Yasuo can negate all projectiles for him AND HIS TEAM.

and yasuo can't 1shot you unless you build full damage, jax certainly can

Yasuo doesn't have to mind his e. With a 0.5-0.1 second cooldown and no cost, you're not punished for using the abilty.

Yasuo literally has to keep track of positioning of all enemy units and their mini cooldown timers

Every champion has to pay attention to their positioning and timing of their abilities in combos. If jax is 3 shotting everyone on your team by right clicking then he has such a lead that Yasuo could also do the same.

false, jax automatically gets to that state and just actually walks up to you and slaps you to death

yasuo still has to outplay you even when he's ahead unless you're playing an outdated kit

420 gramsJan 28, 20191 votes

I disagree that buying an item for its active abilty is stat checking.

"oh and when you invest in that the jax for example wont buy anything" ....so if I buy one of those to counter jax, the jax will just give up and not buy items anymore???

You really can't dodge his knock up. If he dashes on you and uses it, you can't dodge it with a normal dash. If it was a jax stun you may have at least had a chance to still dash away while being stunned, whereas yasuo it will stop your dash because he "outplayed" you. He also has the option to use it as a long range aoe skill shot, a choice the low skill champions just don't have. Which is kind of the whole point of low skill vs high skill champs. The high skill champ in this case simply has more versatility and the better tools to do what the low skill champ is doing.

It's not like keeping track of where the minions are is difficult. They act the same every game. It's like ok I just dashed threw that one, so now I only have 6 more available dashes available around me. Now i dashed again, only 5 available dash options left!!! Jax can jump one time. That's it. He jumps in, his q is on a long cooldown. His option to get out is to run away. Again, Yasuo could also choose to just run away but he can also choose to dash out.

If anyone can get to that state automatically it's the notorious "10 death power spike" Yasuo.

Haul AssAug 18, 20192 votes

Well to be fair, the problem with the champs that you list are that theyre just designed to be unfun. Yas is way to forgiving and rewarding. champions like him make supports obeolete. why would you need a proper support when you already have shield escape windwall gapclose AND aoe CC. Zed is a low interaction champion, no better than statcheck champs, if he has enough dmg to kill you then youre dead, if he doesnt then you will live. how do you counter him? buy zonyas

Gnar is a champion that is designed to play in a lane where most others are melee, so giving him range is by itself a strenght. but on top of that he has a combination of poke escape and slow that makes him literally unfun to lane against. How do you kill a ranged champ with cc? you get on top of them, but not gnar he has a get out of jail free card, he jumps away.

My biggest problem with lol is that they have, since season 4, been saying that they want champions with MORE interactions but the champs that are constantly on the top of the teirlist are the likes of yasou and zed, who are low interaction champs. when you lane as one of them then YOU decide when there will be trading, YOU decide when there will be an all in. IM playing as yas, and my opponent is tryin to trade in lane, NOPE ill just windwall and ill trade when it suits me better. when i have tornado so that he cant answer. should i miss? np he cant trade back, i can dash away, charge it back up and try again. Playing against champs like them (and riven for example who have no window where you can trade with her) is just so boring. its so onesided.

Zyra on the other hand is a fun champ, she has skillshots that you can dodge(interaction) plants that you can kill, tank or ignore(interaction) she often have to put herself in a tough spot to engage and get her combo off(interaction). She have to deserve her kills, trades, engages, aso. Unlike zed where you, faceroll your keyboard from right to left, or yas where you press R after someone else have engaged, and you suspend multiple ppl, do dmg, get shield and proceed to place your cat on the keyboard.

ANd btw. good players who lane against fiora, they know to walk away so her passive resets. just let that sink in for a while. Her passive, is designed to mark you, BY ITSELF, and if youre UNLUCKY you get marked towards the side that is facing her, so you walk away and then you walk back. that is LITERALLY the interaction you have with her passive. It marks you BY ITSELF, you WALK AWAY and then repeat. THATS AN ACCTUAL"INTERACTION". But oh no dont let me forget, she follows that up by a short dash, an AUTOAIMED attack that gains some range and then she get a movement speed buff so that you wont be able to interact with her, so that it goes one way. And if you BY GOD play a champ that can trade back then they gave her a parry just to make sure that she will win the trade. FUN!

Back in the day Taric was acctually considered OP because he had a point and click 2 sec stun. ppl bought boots of mobility and roamed with him. Thats how it should be if riot truly want interaction. by default everything is dodgeable and or takes some sort of aiming to land. Skills that are reliable and still have great dmg/cc should be considered overpowered, and must result in the champ having other weaknesses. TYPICALLY a champ that has shields, windwall and aoe cc is a support, like braum. if yougive braum great dmg and dashes and scaling then youre blurring out the lines between the roles and youre definately not getting more interaction.

saltranJan 27, 20191 votes

So what makes Zyra a skilled champ and what makes Orianna the opposite as you imply if I didn't get anything wrong out of your thread.

HammermancerJan 27, 20191 votes

{quoted}

So what makes a skilled champ and what makes the opposite as you imply if I didn't get anything wrong out of your thread.

I said ori was skill based and that would be a skill match which is why it's more fun

Zyra has to work around zoning and spawn management while also deciding which seeds are more important than others

it actually takes a lot of awareness and planning to play zyra to her fullest, which is when people start raging because she's not very flashy and doesn't appear to be expressive

saltranJan 28, 20191 votes

(okay so I did missunderstood the Ori part, I wasn't sure)

For the main point: when do we consider that high skill floor and high skill ceilling champs are strong ?

When they are strong on average or when they are strong on experienced hands.

Beacause when champs as Azir, Kalista or Akali are even meh on average they are borderline broken on the right hands.

(Zed in other hand can be meh on average and not be broken on the right hands because he's easily countered by supps that are no longer ward bots as they were when he was meta.)

Higher skill champs should be harder to play, champs as Lucian Vayne Thresh that are among the hardest champs on their respective roles shouldn't be the champs that have that high pickrate AND winrate cuz it means that any ape can pick Lucian and smash lane and same goes for Thresh. When Gnar is fine he becomes the safest toplaner that never loses lane and smahes most matchups while also having a good teamfight.

Why? Because when the -easy- champs are strong a good player of a -hard- champ can do fine, if the -hard- champs are strong the one that plays -easy- and weak champs wont do fine.

And the non -hard- champs you listed do have counterplay, and that's why they are trash on pro play even while being strong on soloQ.

And btw I dont consider Zyra to have neither high skill floor and high skill ceilling, she's a braindead poke supp even easier than Brand, hell Lulu has more skill ceilling and decision making for her double W/E than Zyra on her whole kit.

preternaturalAug 19, 20191 votes

because the player base is largely unskilled.

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