The one genuine issue I have ever heard about Master Yi

Oakleaf Ranger··14 votes·7,819 views

Before you comment or read, this is not a Master Yi circle jerk and if that is what you want go else where.

If anyone remembers BTR (beyond the rift) from 2 weeks ago, Master Yi was talked about briefly. In that brief bit I heard the core problem with him that and I totally agreed.

Master Yi warps the game around him too much whenever he is in it. Why?

Because Master Yi doesn't do anything early game. Master Yi's early game is almost non existent. He lacks CC, utility, and strong damage output in the early game. That means whatever team has him must play around and wait for a champion who practically speaking, is not going to do anything until he finally gets enough items and levels to be a useful asset for the team.

Ad for the enemy team, it's all about abusing his non existent early game to gain a lead and end the game before Master Yi can scale. Otherwise Master Yi starts to 1v5 and cut through their team because that's how powerful he becomes after enough items and levels.

Is Master Yi OP?

I don't think so, but he does warp the game around him in a arguably unhealthy way for both his team and the opposing one.

16 Comments

Illabethe4 votes

You do realize for a farming jungler, level 6 is about 5:45 into the game?

He's hardly nonpresent.

He doesn't usually gank level 1-5 though for a different reason: Jungle hurts Yi a lot early game. That's it. If you invade him, he's dead. But after he has some items, his kit is overgeared, and that's no longer a problem. He begins 1 hitting camps and moving on. And 1 hitting champions and moving on.

There are legitimately a very few CC that actually counter Yi (only about 6), so a GOOD yi literally can run a game. The other CC are situational, and usually require Yi to attack someone and one of that someone's allies to CC him when he lands. He has almost no counterplay in a 1v1.... so games where it's a series of 1v1's in a lose team fight, he can generally avoid most attacks.

He's also one of the two strongest Bounty Hunters in the game. He's one of the few champions who can be entirely irrelevant for 10 minutes, and then clean up a 7800 Gold 1v5 where his team chiseled a team down but died, and suddenly buy 2 full items (doesn't happen every game.... a 3500-4500 gold ace is more realistic given takedowns).

He is OP. He can extend his ult to being permanently up. Can prevent attack speed slows on top of move speed slows. Can avoid all but 6 CC's by using Q. Can reduce incoming damage by 70% while healing.

What he's NOT is OP vs every champ in the game.

The reason Yi generally doesn't have a 60-70% overall win rate is this simple:

-Team sucks -Team doesn't play safe -Yi gets invaded early. -Yi gets secondary countered while killing a first.

Vs over half the champs in the roster, there is no kit to stop Yi. If those champs are selected on a team... Yi is going to 1v5 them.

Oakleaf Ranger1 votes

Yi's jungle clears are average. All you did was list possibly the only other main reason left as to why his early game sucks from the ones I gave.

No champion suddenly becomes highly relevant after just 10 minutes of being behind from start of the game or vs fed opponents. What team fight is Yi going to clean up after a 5v4. Is the enemy team suddenly going to forget how use their CC and kite as the squishy Master Yi runs at them?

Is he going dodge all the incoming CC with his 2 second conditional untargetable state from alpha strike? Or is he going to kill them all while blocking 70% of their damage and healing from mediating as they politely wait with their hard CC until after he finishes using his self stun.

Yi isn't rocking a 60 to 70 percent win rate because Yi gets shitty teammates? I could literally apply that reason to any champion. Team doesn't play safe or is it the enemy jg having free reign of the jungle to do whatever because Yi will lose in any skirmish that isn't extremely favorable for him. Probably why he gets invaded. I don't even know what that last reason even means. Yi is one of the best duelists in a 1v1 with items and levels. Except this game isn't purely a 1v1 now is it?

ZephyrDrake2 votes

{quoted}

You do realize for a farming jungler, level 6 is about 5:45 into the game?

He's hardly nonpresent.

He doesn't usually gank level 1-5 though for a different reason: Jungle hurts Yi a lot early game. That's it. If you invade him, he's dead. But after he has some items, his kit is overgeared, and that's no longer a problem. He begins 1 hitting camps and moving on. And 1 hitting champions and moving on.

There are legitimately a very few CC that actually counter Yi (only about 6), so a GOOD yi literally can run a game. The other CC are situational, and usually require Yi to attack someone and one of that someone's allies to CC him when he lands. He has almost no counterplay in a 1v1.... so games where it's a series of 1v1's in a lose team fight, he can generally avoid most attacks.

He's also one of the two strongest Bounty Hunters in the game. He's one of the few champions who can be entirely irrelevant for 10 minutes, and then clean up a 7800 Gold 1v5 where his team chiseled a team down but died, and suddenly buy 2 full items (doesn't happen every game.... a 3500-4500 gold ace is more realistic given takedowns).

He is OP. He can extend his ult to being permanently up. Can prevent attack speed slows on top of move speed slows. Can avoid all but 6 CC's by using Q. Can reduce incoming damage by 70% while healing.

What he's NOT is OP vs every champ in the game.

The reason Yi generally doesn't have a 60-70% overall win rate is this simple:

-Team sucks -Team doesn't play safe -Yi gets invaded early. -Yi gets secondary countered while killing a first.

Vs over half the champs in the roster, there is no kit to stop Yi. If those champs are selected on a team... Yi is going to 1v5 them.

sorry but what? only 6? wow every single stun, root, knockup and pushback in the game and "only about 6 CC counters Yi"... unless you meant actual forms of CC and not you know... champion abilities. Also he doesn't "one shot" anyone, he literally has to auto attack people multiple times to kill them regardless of whether they are squishy or not. I am sorry your team has only one champion with any actual CC to deal with threats. That is why you lose to him. Because people think that no CC high damage comps are actually somehow viable when all that is needed is to have someone run at them and destroy them since nothing can stop the enemy from doing whatever they want with your nonexistent CC comp.

You do know that he cannot move while using his W right? he might actually reduce the damage from one high damaging ability but if you keep using everything except actual CC on him while he is on his W that is on you and your team not him "being broken". Learn to have more than a single form of CC in your team, and I mean actual hard CC not soft CC which is what a slow is

Illabethe2 votes

There is plenty of CC in the game, but only 10 (I misremembered) have absolute dominance over a Yi. The others can purely be avoided. https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/N8Ix55u5-random-buff-to-yi-and-rengar-with-a-nerf-on-ryze?comment=000700000000000000000001 < Post explaining Yi further.

And it's not that teams don't have CC. It's that often teams have SLOWS. Most champs are far more prone to Slows as CC or as a condition to hit their bigger CCs, have slows. Slows don't work on Yi at all. Nasus's W is completely ineffective for example. If jungler is a last pick, he gets to see the team and decide to go Yi and absolutely dominate.

Also, don't talk to me as if this is a "me" complaint. This is me more or less pointing out that nearly 80% of the community is in Silver or Below, and your teams DO feed Yi. Even if you are smart at killing/countering Yi, your team is almost NEVER as good at it.

P.S. You do realize that Q vs a champion ends with an auto attack on top of the Q damage? You do realize that Yi in W can easily Q out of any CC you throw at him in that state? You also know that W is used to pause his ult, right? It's only there to soak damage as a BAIT.

ZephyrDrake2 votes

{quoted}

There is plenty of CC in the game, but only 10 (I misremembered) have absolute dominance over a Yi. The others can purely be avoided. https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/N8Ix55u5-random-buff-to-yi-and-rengar-with-a-nerf-on-ryze?comment=000700000000000000000001 < Post explaining Yi further.

And it's not that teams don't have CC. It's that often teams have SLOWS. Most champs are far more prone to Slows as CC or as a condition to hit their bigger CCs, have slows. Slows don't work on Yi at all. Nasus's W is completely ineffective for example. If jungler is a last pick, he gets to see the team and decide to go Yi and absolutely dominate.

Also, don't talk to me as if this is a "me" complaint. This is me more or less pointing out that nearly 80% of the community is in Silver or Below, and your teams DO feed Yi. Even if you are smart at killing/countering Yi, your team is almost NEVER as good at it.

P.S. You do realize that Q vs a champion ends with an auto attack on top of the Q damage? You do realize that Yi in W can easily Q out of any CC you throw at him in that state? You also know that W is used to pause his ult, right? It's only there to soak damage as a BAIT.

this is a YOU problem. I don't care what the majority of players are. I don't care about people with terrible team comps whining because they picked no CC and got destroyed by a MELEE champion that needs to get close to do anything. I don't care about people who decide "I am squishy let me frontline instead of letting my actual frontline champions do that!". If your team's CC consist of slows only then it's exactly the same as having ZERO CC. Yes, slows don't affect Yi and? nothing affects Olaf while he is ulting yet people know how to deal with him. Why is it that suddenly someone with only a dumb slow immunity is too much to deal with? You can complain about Yi all you want, all I see is someone who has no idea how to deal with him

Illabethe1 votes

Olaf can be outrun, can be DAMAGED by the CC that he ignores, and his Ragnarok doesn't reset its cooldowns. They aren't even a close comparison at all. There is only ONE champion that can purely outrun Yi, and that's Karma Anyone else, he outruns, and easily has time to do it if he heals your teammate(S) (Olaf also is purely countered by Thornmail, where Yi is NOT)

Stop trying to compare Apples to Grapes. You didn't even bother reading the link.

The way you talk about team roles also just reeks of inexperience. Mr Silver II who regularly posts 12 + deaths a game....

Oakleaf Ranger1 votes

How only thorn mail only effective against Olaf but not Yi? You understand that Yi is pretty squishy champion whose main form of defense in combat comes from life steal? Thorn mail cuts the effectiveness of that nearly in half. To say thorn mail is effective against Yi is a understatement.

Did you not read the first sentence of my post? You know the part said if all you wanted to do was circle jerk to go to one of other plentiful "remove Zed/Yasuo/Yi" threads? Because that message at the start was for people like you.

Illabethe1 votes

Thornmail does a flat amount of damage. Olaf builds tank items. In addition, Yi does almost 50% True damage, and gets item 3124 item 1419 , which are both antithesis to tank items. Thornmail may affect Yi, but not before he kills the people he's attacking.

Oakleaf Ranger1 votes

Jesus Christ...

The people building thorn mail are tanks. You know the champions trying to CC you as the carries melt you. No one is building thorn mail for the measly damage reflection, but for grievous wound effect.

You are also missing the main point of this post. No one here is arguing that Yi isn't a monster once he has items and levels. But before that point he is so laughable weak (exploitable) as the trade off that no one decent is concerned about him meta wise.

Infernape2 votes

The problem with Yi is that there is little counterplay to his kit aside from "just CC him". The AA focused nature of his kit and the fact that he (ab)uses Conqueror and Guinsoos, on top of having Bloodrazor and true damage built into his kit, means that you cannot counter his damage completely (as he nullifies a large portion of your armour and deals a ton of %HP damage) and you cannot dodge his AAs unless you blind him or are Jax or Shen.

Póppy Chulo1 votes

Yi is cool and all, but sometimes high elo players laugh off Yi whenever it is brought up. What I see, is Yi shreading through my tanks, and I never really get a chance to stop Yi as his alpha is seemingly always off cooldown, together with resets, double autos, and rageblade. He is basically doing tons of damage, while being nearly invisible in a fight, and that is both hard and not fun to deal with.

Onandaga1 votes

In my opinion that's a big part of what makes him fun and unique though. There very aren't many true hypercarries in this game, especially when you exclude marksmen. You couldn't give master yi a better early game and have him be balanced without taking away a large chunk of his carry potential. Master Yi without his carry potential would just another dime a dozen generalist fighter.

woodvsmurph1 votes

There are plenty of champs who are mostly "useless" early until a certain level or a certain number of items, so in that part master yi is no exception. The exception is the "starts to 1v5" part. Few champs can say this. Maybe a yasuo or vayne besides of course yi. A few more can come close depending on people's picks... like jax or trynd.

So I've said this a few times now and I'll sum it up in short again... Riot does a poor job of balancing certain champs because they don't understand and respect power curves. Power curves is one of the two biggest ways to balance a champion, and rather than set it so that every champ's net power curve is nearly equal... they overbuff some and leave others under-tuned.

If you want detailed explanation/example(s):

What do I mean? Let's look at a few examples to illustrate the idea. Lucian is a strong laning adc. But his range and the fact he doesn't build quite like most crit adc's means his damage falls off a bit late. So early and midgame we might rate him at an 8 and a 7 out of 10 on the power curve scale. Late game due to the challenges he faces (his damage is still very decent if he's allowed to deal it) he gets rated around a 5 out of 10. So if we average this... he gets a rating of 20/3= 6.7. ... If we next look at kog'maw we give him maybe a 3 out of 10 early, 6 out of 10 mid and 9 out of 10 late. *forgive me if you think this is off; I don't main adc, but am guestimating for illustrative purposes. Anyways, back to the illustration. 3+6+9=18 18/3=6. So comparing kog and lucian... their power curve ratings are fairly close. This means that they have a fair power curve in comparison to each other. If some other adc were to come in with a rating around 8 or around 5 then they'd probably need to get looked at and buffed or nerfed accordingly.

But that's only half the battle with power curves. The other half was illustrated nicely with crit champs being unviable not too long ago. If we compared their power curves to those of the mages that had supplanted them in bot lane, their overall power curves were probably comparable. So what was the problem? The problem is when Riot goes to extremes with a power curve. For instance, we might give full build crit jhin a rating of 9 on the power curve. But in order to balance out that extreme late game power, he must be given a rating of something like 2 in the early game and maybe 5 in the midgame. Well if you have something with a rating of 2 vs something with a rating of 7 or better in the early game... good luck reaching your late game power spike. Simply put, the ends of the curve (early game and late game) are too extreme. And thus while crit adc's were "balanced", they were not balanced in a way that makes them fair for either party. This is why when crit adc's got a buff to their early game via item changes and stuff, they got some small reduction to the scaling of those items; you can't take something that's supposed to be weak early and hyperscale late and buff it's early game to make it average without shaving off some of it's scaling. Otherwise there is legit no reason to take some early or midgame focused champ... hyperscaling simply becomes the only valid option unless you know you can end the match in 20 min or so.

Yi, fiora, jax, and possibly trynd fall into a similar situation. Their late games are incredible, so their early games should leave strong early game champs EQUALLY incredibly stronger than them to give them a fair power curve compared to these champs since the early game champs fall off about as hard as these champs scale. But if Riot were to do that, then you'd end up with these champs being unplayable due to how hard they would be bullied early when in matches with highly skilled and/or coordinated players. And so... much like crit adc's they get some extra help early compared to what they maybe should have gotten. Only unlike with adc's (please don't crucify me yet adc mains), these champs don't/didn't get the same type or extend of reduction to their scaling that crit adc's did recently when adc's were given a buff to their early game.

And so you have this very awkward flux between stuff like fiora, jax, yi, and others being weak if their early game is left properly punishable to the extent they should be getting punished early game by skilled opponents on lane bullies/dueling early game junglers and being op when their early games are made competitive enough that they can challenge early game champs on near-even footing during the early game due to how little risk there is for them early - essentially their power curve is simply made much better (like average of 7 vs average of 4.5). Small changes to meta, to items, etc. can flux that pretty meaningfully for champs like yi. And thus, due to hit kit and scaling, he's just not set up to be properly balanced without regular attention. He needs a new kit - along with many other champs - which allows for more skill expression and more meaningful counter-play. A kit that gives him more competitive scaling throughout the game rather than leaving him at extremes at various points of the game - sometimes being very weak, other times being stupidly strong. It's fine for a champ to be stronger than most others at a point in the game - that's why lane bullies and hyperscaling champs exist. But when the difference in power at any point in the game becomes so much (strong or weak) that the champ is unplayable (due to far too weak at that point in game) or makes other champs unplayable (due to far too strong), then you have an issue. What I'm trying to say is that you can't like... make a champ have a power curve rating of 1 at one point ant 10 at another - it's not fair or fun for whoever plays that champ when they're at a 1 and not fair for their opponents when they reach a power of 10. I think a +/-3 is about the biggest acceptable gap without having potential for massive abuse at any given point in the game.

Oakleaf Ranger1 votes

This is just a much longer version of what I said in my post but with a lot more context and broader as well.

I just hope the main take away people have after reading is that yah Yi does have problems but being OP isn't one of them.

SugeMinPikk1 votes

He can 1v1 a couple of champions if he has conq stacked up and is level 3 for the auto reset on his w. I tend to invade rengars and evelynns

Need Gold 4 Tent1 votes

{quoted}

He can 1v1 a couple of champions if he has conq stacked up and is level 3 for the auto reset on his w. I tend to invade rengars and evelynns

Red buff level 2 is the strongest time for Yi early. W reset isn't going to help you against assassin junglers with QWE damage combos (and electrocute) to nuke you before you can dps them down.

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