Just btw

Penns·Nov 6, 2015·35 votes·1,406 views

The reason everyone is playing the new "marksmen" on the PBE is because they are new, not because "you have to have at least 3 or 4 adcs on every team now". Its the PBE, new things are always instalocked lel.

19 Comments

SeargentAnusNov 6, 20157 votes

Full ADC teams aren't going to work on live lol. Things like assassins, and long range siege mages still destroy ADCs.

Kitten of EvilNov 6, 20151 votes

Velkoz I'm counting on it.

BorblandNov 6, 20151 votes

AP Kog is now even stronger than before, thanks to his ult that deals more damage now the less HP the enemy has. Dance, my friend, dance !

EarthpineNov 6, 20151 votes

HP*

TwinkieProNov 6, 20151 votes

I'd say he is more the same. the mana cost and discharge time has increased, so multiple ults hurt more, but smacking low health will end them quick as it will require fewer shots. also remember that the base damage is no longer doubled against champions, so pre 50% is abyssmal.

ModWulf HelhammerNov 6, 20151 votes

Also because they want to test them out.

TNHA BaritoneNov 6, 20151 votes

ekka was instalocked so was kindred and tahm...i agree with post

Spacesuit SpiffNov 6, 20151 votes

No no dont say that ppl need to be able to panic about how stupid rito is destroying the game!

TurquoiseYoshiNov 6, 20151 votes

You mean the support meta isn't now Kalista Ashe KogMaw Kindred ???/?!1!!!2!?/?

DrugothNov 6, 20151 votes

Thanks for this post. Ironically common sense isn't as common as we all think...

PaeroNov 6, 20151 votes

I can't wait to play graves after his changes, all they need to do is give him his cigar back

Phuc Dat BichNov 7, 20151 votes

the problem is that graves is the best jungle on PBE right now..AN ADC THE BEST JUNGLE

If you think this is not a problem then i dont know

SoMNiaNov 7, 20151 votes

You think Graves is still an ADC? Graves, who doesn't build attack speed, does most of his damage in short bursts at melee range, and relies on a massive stacking resistance steroid and AoE vision denial to not die? Sure, he can be played in a duo lane, but that doesn't make him an ADC.

plantersNov 7, 20151 votes

to be fair Ezreal and Corki dont really care about attack speed either. also riot has specifically been adjusting the game to make ranged marksman more viable in the jungle with the intent of making adc no longer entrenched in bot lane. though maybe im wrong. please enlighten me to what discounts graves from the role of ADC. also enlighten me to the problem of an ADC being a good jungler. in the case of graves maybe because he's OP but outside of this I really cant find a legitimate issue with the expansion of viable jungle picks.

SoMNiaNov 7, 20151 votes

It has to do with what the ADC's "job" is. One, siege and objective taking power. An ADC can do this in relative safety because they generate high DPS at range. Graves can knock over a tower pretty quickly, but to hit it at all, he has to put himself at considerable risk, and to maximize his damage, he has to be standing practically on top of the thing. Two, reliable DPS in teamfights. Graves has monstrous burst damage if he's able to position properly, but his short range, lower single-target damage at max range, reload mechanic, cooldowns, and (blockable) skillshot-like nature of his basic attacks mean that he is unable to produce reliable damage pressure in the same way as another marksman might. In this way, he is more accurately classified as a short-range AD bruiser or assassin than an ADC. It's no wonder that the jungle (and top lane) suits him.

Of course, there's no rule saying that bot lane has to be a duo lane of ADC and support, anyway. That meta developed around Dragon being the most relevant contested objective before 20 minutes, but now we have the Rift Herald (which, granted, seems to discourage ranged attackers, but a melee support and/or jungler could help). As for the jungle, that usually requires a sturdier champion, and building defensively limits or delays an ADC's effectiveness. Kindred can do it, of course, both because of sustain and because of the amount of innate damage in their kit allowing them to build defensively, but they tend to be mediocre at taking towers due to a lack of raw AD (all a matter of build, of course; ADC Kindred is a thing, but it's a different build from the jungle version). Graves can do it, because he's designed more like a bruiser, now.

I'm not sure why it would be a problem, per se, if an ADC could jungle. Maybe because it would mean their offensive power was so great that it superseded the jungle's usual defensive requirements even in the early game, which would normally be a bit of a red flag (this IS the case with Kindred, but again, their tower taking isn't overwhelming, and they're very stack reliant and feast-or-famine). But this is a new jungle, and from what I hear, a LOT of champions are newly able to tackle it. I think that's probably a good thing, together with marksmen expanding their reach beyond bottom lane in ways that are not oppressive, and Rift Herald balancing out the map, objective-wise. Team power bot, lane power top, map power mid seems to be the direction things are moving, and which champions take responsibility for each may open up considerably.

plantersNov 7, 20151 votes

Siege: Not that big of a deal really. Not every ADC is equally good at sieging in this case Graves is just bad at it.

Reliable DPS: A)I've seen his kit from PBE videos its really not that bad. That he is better in 1v1 than 5v5 doesnt really seem like that big of a deal to me. Vayne isnt as good in 5v5 if you can force her to have to switch targets every 2 aa.
B) Just because he has burst and relies on positioning doesnt make him less of an adc. ALL ADCs rely on positioning and lucian is an adc who relies on burst

Im just going to point out that in its truest definition an ADC is just a carry that does attack damage rather than magic damage. In any other moba you even split that definition of carry between ranged and melee carries. That we have gotten so entrenched in the thought process that a ranged carry needs to be on a team and bring siege, damage, safety is just a proof of the lack of balance in the game. Think about it. Why is ADC limited to 3 champions at higher levels? The answer across the board is that those 3 champions give the best safety, siege, and damage in the game. Until this simple system is broken up in some way shape or form the game will probably never be balanced without having a bot lane ADC, something im becoming increasingly sure of that riot wants to end.

SoMNiaNov 7, 20151 votes

It's pretty important to have good siege ability on a team, unless you're coordinated around defending a siege (waveclear and long ranged poke) and splitpushing. I think as long as the term "ADC" exists, that will be in its job description. This is because the label is pretty heavily entrenched in the established meta to begin with. That doesn't mean that an "ADC" is the only one who can do it, but somebody's got to. The good news is that they buffed AP damage to towers, so a ranged AP champion that uses Nashor's Tooth will have decent tower taking ability. Elise, for example, can pop out of the jungle even in human form and push towers without wading through minions, and if she sees an opportunity, spider form positively melts them. Cass with Aspect of the Serpent stacked does obscene tower damage.

All ADCs rely on positioning, but that generally means somewhere nearby, but at a good distance and able to be protected by the tank and/or utility mage, so they can reliably put out damage at any and every target in range. Constant, reliable damage pressure that exists just because the ADC is nearby. The fact that Graves needs positioning that puts him right in the enemy's face for short bursts of damage is what distinguishes him from what "ADC" really means. Most of Vayne's damage still comes from crit and BoRK, so even if she doesn't get Silver Bolts off, that doesn't reduce her to less than 1/3 of her peak damage output. Range naturally has an exponential effect on damage area. Graves' max range is short, and his effective range is even shorter. Because his attacks can be blocked, he often has trouble focusing the right targets unless they are out of position — at least from what I've seen. As I said, he functions more like an assassin (using E to dive and R to get out) or bruiser (smashing down the frontline or bursting an assassin that dives) than an ADC.

Talon does a lot of physical damage, but that doesn't make him an ADC. Carries are long ranged DPS. Graves is short ranged burst. "[ADC is limited to 3 champions at higher levels because] those 3 champions give the best safety, siege, and damage in the game." Yes. Because that's what "ADC" means. Graves doesn't have to be an "ADC" to be valuable to the team. And I do think they are effectively expanding the list of champions who are up to par in the ADC role, while also giving them options besides "bot lane with a support". Quinn mid looks exciting. If she needs to siege, she synergizes as well with Firecannon as she does with Shiv, and her speed from W (matching Fiora's) makes positioning easy.

SoMNiaNov 7, 20151 votes

I thought this was obvious, but given the number of threads talking about how it's the end of the world for mages and tanks, and ADCs will take over the game, it's unfortunately necessary to point this out. Most of the people complaining about the changes haven't actually looked at them. "You nerfed armor, and now you're buffing AD!" No, they nerfed armor, and then they nerfed AD and arpen. XD

Sentinel947Nov 7, 20151 votes

Playing on PBE today, and we had normal comps in every game. Bruisers are still fine, and I felt like I was doing just as much damage with my Anivia that I would normally be doing, even before some of the AP item nerfs.