Shen buffs? Let's do it right. (Everyone encouraged to participate)

Melledoneus··83 votes·6,476 views

#Tl;dr Buff Shen's base stats to make him tankier (more scaling armor/HP) and/or make his abilities less clunky (bigger hitboxes, indicators) and more impactful (Increased W duration, passive shield increase) to accentuate his identity as a dueling and peeling tank.

So, Shen is planned to get buffs since he was nerfed for having a useful ultimate or something like that. So, what are we going to buff? It's a matter of what would help Shen fulfill his identity and not push him over the edge.


#Maintain Shen's identity as a dueling and peeling tank.


Shen is meant to go toe-to-toe with front liners during fights, peeling for his carries or putting pressure on enemy carries while doing so. While bigger, badder raid bosses like Darius and Nasus would prove a little more problematic for him, lots of bruisers have issues killing him if he does his job right. Which is what Shen is supposed to do: He's meant to be a warden that can also duel.

Now, I'm not saying we should make Shen one of THE best duelists in the game (Fiora/Jax/Olaf tier), but we should make it so he can fight what he's meant to: bruisers and fighters that rely on getting in your face (Riven, MonkeyKing, JarvanIV). As it stands right now, Shen has some of the worst stats when it comes to tanks. A list of buffs to fix these issues would include buffing some of his more lacking base stats (scaling armor, scaling HP) or giving him bigger windows/power to do what he does best (Increased W duration, bigger shield on passive).

##How to avoid pushing Shen over the edge

Remember to keep in mind that Shen relies on his passive shield to tank a lot of the damage he normally would. Early on it helps, later on it can become absolutely terrifying when utilized correctly. Remember that Shen needs to land his abilities and keep a combo going to get these rewards, so buffing his base stats too much would be bad. For example, giving Shen an increased 5% max HP on his passive shield is a very risky move because it would create instances where Shen's shield gives him almost a second health bar. We need to keep in mind things that scale hard, and avoid overbuffing them.


#Oil the gears to make things less clunky


As it stands, Shen's mechanics have disillusioned many Shen mains because the abilities he has can be inconsistent and conflict with the way the character feels and operates. Right now, we have hitbox issues, kiting problems, and overall problems that make Shen feel like he was released without being fully tested and tweaked. For example, Shen's Twilight Assault (Q) allows him to pull his spirit sword toward him and grant a buff for three auto attacks that deal an empowered % of an opponents max HP in magic damage. The empowered % increases if the sword is pulled through an enemy champion. However, the hitbox for the Q sometimes does not actually grant the buff when it looks like it should have. Opponents in many instances who are running and are on top of the sword are not slowed when the sword is pulled while they are directly on top of it. Furthermore, the travel time of Shen's Q can sometimes throw off the timing of combos because of how slow it can be.

Another issue we see sometimes is that Shen's Shadow Dash (E), while your model collides with an enemy, DOES NOT TAUNT. This is one of the biggest gripes Shen players have, as many a Shen have dashed at an enemy just to stop short on top of them with no CC applied. Furthermore, while dashing it is possible for an opponent at mid-range to sidestep the ability too late, get hit by your champion model and the spell effect and still not get hit. It is almost impossible for players to know if their E will land or not because the hitbox is smaller than the champion model, which serves as the only indication of the move's area of effect. Several ways to fix these mechanical issues include increasing clarity (hitbox indicators on the ground for Shen's E and Q), buffs to fix inconsistencies (make Q give a small AoE effect when pulled to affect opponents standing on top of it, buff Shadow Dash to match the hitbox of Shen), or increase the speed at which mechanics occur (Q travel time increase, E missile speed increase).

##How to avoid pushing Shen over the edge A very noteworthy thing to bring up is that we need to keep counterplay in check. Making Shen's E too fast, or his Q too large would make Shen difficult to get around and turn him into a serious lane bully. Additionally, hitboxes too large would result in a smaller distinction between good and great Shen players, as it doesn't matter since the Q's hitbox could be the size of a refrigerator like Morgana's Q. Enemies should still be able to dodge abilities if they have the tools or are insightful enough, but should also be punished for not respecting Shen's presence.


I hope you enjoyed this read, and let me know what you think!

210 Comments

Teridax6824 votes

All of these are very good suggestions. I agree that Shen's hitboxes feel very stingy, and I feel it's one of the reasons why there's such a discrepancy in his performance between pro and standard play. I'm less comfortable with buffing his base stats, since he can still get quite tanky, but at the same time it's clear that his base health and armor are both pitiful to look at, literally in the bottom 10 among all champions. Now that Worlds are over, I think buffs to Shen's stats and hitboxes could do him a lot of good across all elos, even if it means nerfing whatever else makes him so strong in competitive play.

Ultimately, though, I think Shen might eventually need another rework, even if that's a topic for another thread. His current kit is a significant improvement over the first, but it missed the mark thematically, something Riot realized almost immediately after releasing it, and didn't make him that much easier to balance, which was one of its original goals. My two cents on this:

  • Remove Shen's Spirit Blade mechanic: Spirit Blade was the largest addition to Shen's kit, but also ended up being the least successful. It feels thematically weird, and creates some really fiddly gameplay when trying to reel it into enemies, especially when its hitbox is uncomfortably narrow. Shen needs another way of turning his spiritual power into offensive strength, and while that power needs to have a degree of unreliability (Vorpal Blade was boring and difficult to balance, precisely because there was no way it could miss), it needs to feel appropriate for his character and overall playstyle (as a Warden, he mostly hangs around his allies and then jumps out to taunt enemies, whereas his Q empowerment encourages him to place himself behind his enemies first and then attack, which would be more appropriate on a Vanguard).
  • Change Shen's W into an intercept: I feel one of the reasons Shen's base durability is so low is because he can avoid basic attack damage completely while Spirit's Refuge is active, which is tremendously powerful. There's also a degree of anti-synergy to its dodge: as a tank, Shen should be encouraged to absorb damage, instead of negating it outright, and using W on himself diminishes the use of his innate shield. The core idea of protecting allies is pretty cool, though, and I think it might be better if Shen's W made him intercept incoming harmful effects for someone else, without necessarily creating a whole zone of damage negation.
  • Make Shen himself the shield during Stand United: A common complaint is that Stand United, in spite of its large base shielding, doesn't do enough to protect allies, which isn't helped by its complete lack of real scaling (AP Shen isn't a thing anymore, and never really was). Having Shen redirect all damage his target ally takes towards his own health bar would work in many ways: his protection would be much more consistent, since shielding a squishy would use his own resistances for additional damage mitigation, it would scale with his own tankiness, as well as synergize with his innate, and it could have potentially even more meaningful costs than the current shield. Since Shen would be literally putting his life on the line for the sake of his friend, the enemy team would still be encouraged to whale on what could end up being a much larger shield, because popping it would kill him. It would also place a greater cost to initiate and connect its power to his own presence, meaning that Shen would no longer be able to ult as easily if he takes a beating from his lane opponent, nor would he be able to comfortably splitpush if he just used his ult to absorb tons of damage for an ally. It would no longer be a "free" teleport, because focusing the shielded target could end up preventing Shen from initiating without dying. Basically, it could allow his ult to offer much more ally-oriented protection, while also having even more meaningful tradeoffs and associated counterplay.
And A Real Hiero6 votes

I like that R change a lot!

Melledoneus10 votes

{quoted}

  • Remove Shen's Spirit Blade mechanic:

I agree that Spirit Sword, while it is pretty neat, doesn't fit him. I think an ability more self-centered rather than opponent-centered would be fitting since Q is almost pointless if he doesn't land his E.

  • Change Shen's W into an intercept:

This is an idea I can get behind. If Shen can negate damage for himself and his allies, that would be amazing. It would also give him some tankiness outside of his passive shield, giving him some power even if he doesn't get the reset on his shield CD.

  • Make Shen himself the shield during Stand United:

This idea is awesome, but it might have some flaws. However, I feel like it can truly be worth a lot if the ally is given a shield and a % of damage is redirected to Shen. That way, Shen is rewarded for helping out a teammate, and there will be room for buffs since Shen is taking damage for his ally and essentially doing his job without coming in full HP. It'd also make for some hilarious plays when you're absorbing damage while you're in fountain, and you show up out of thin air with Homeguards to chase down the enemy attacker.

The Whamboozler19 votes

Can we ditch his stupid spirit blade? It's such a clunky, clumsy, stupid mechanic and seeing his drag it around like a dog on a leash just looks really goofy.

Give him something less goofy to base his kit around.

Melledoneus12 votes

I think it has potential if they took the time to fix it and make it feel more fluid and dynamic.

Also, we don't really have a choice... these are buffs, not changes we're looking at.

Azteryz1 votes

thematically i think its actually hella cool

he is almost like the bridge between this two worlds and it has a witcher feel to it with the two swords one for humans one for spirits

The Whamboozler6 votes

A sword that harms spirits? Cool.

A giant glowing sword that he drags around on a leash? Goofy.

Can we make it look less absurd? Maybe change the models so he tosses the blade from it's spot on his back into the ground or something and then the aura radiates from there? Every time I see Shen walking his sword like it's a lost puppy I can't that it or him seriously.

And A Real Hiero5 votes

While we're talking thematics, they should have snuck in the dual wielding Ki Strike on the final Q proc instead of the lame overhead slash.

Canastus17 votes

I'd much rather see another rework on him, this spirit blade nonsense needs to go. Period.

Bladerunner77776 votes

I personally wouldn't mind if he was, like, Kenshi from Mortal Kombat. But the "Anchor Sword" isn't fun :(

https://67.media.tumblr.com/57b6619f9ba90d0b75f97a123884593f/tumblr_npnszruONM1qi2twuo2_500.gif

Nyanza16 votes

Give my boy Shen the good ol' KogMaw treatment. Undone the rework. Return the Eye of Twilight back to his former glory.

Imperial Japan7 votes

{quoted}

Give my boy Shen the good ol' KogMaw treatment. Undone the rework. Return the Eye of Twilight back to his former glory.

+1

Phil Fly10 votes

Return Vorpal Blade. Have W be around him. Make E 2 charges but greatly reduce taunt length. Perhaps make R redirect damage from the target to Shen. Just some ideas to help me protect my teammates.

Melledoneus6 votes

I think talking about another full-scale rework should be another talk for another time.

Although I do like the R idea.

LostFr0st5 votes

How many times do your carries stay in the Sword W-zone for protection; do you find it annoying too to keep track of sword position for optimal Ws?

Melledoneus5 votes

Shen's W is almost never used for his teammates. Occasionally I do drive-by dodges to save allies from a bit of damage to save them, but other than that it's almost purely selfish use.

Saianna8 votes

I might be pessimist but Imo I'd like to see old Shen. With simple kit. A Shen that is good at tanking. Well I didn't play old shen almost at all... But still.. Old > gimmick-master new one

Ralanr7 votes

I certainly do like the feel of successfully dueling tanks and bruisers as SHEN while remaining a tank. Because even against tanky characters, my abilities aren't as useful against squishy opponents. Which is how it should feel.

So enhancing his identity as a dueling tank is nice.

Tattersall7 votes

…How do I vote for all of the answers (other than the last two)?

I've always thought it would be cool if, when he used his Q, his Spirit Blade would arrive at where the player's mouse was when it was casted, at a max range of [W's radius] units from Shen.

luch33saves5 votes

Ult should scale off health, Q should scale off AD. This would make him way less clunky and give him scalings.

Pæan5 votes

Would love to see his Q change from sword reposition to an X shaped twin slash like his old passive slash.

Really similar to rengars new Q coming up in the rework, only without the stab at the end.

noob0001115 votes

Revert his rework or atleast plz remove his bs sword.

DireXcon4 votes

Shen is already hard to kill, why would we make him tankier? what should be better is more base movement speed since he's so slow for a ninja

Melledoneus19 votes

Shen is only hard to kill if he's ahead. And he's not nearly as hard to kill as someone like, say, Nautilus, who has better stats overall.

DireXcon1 votes

Is not about the stats, but the CC he got.

Melledoneus10 votes

An unreliable CC that is difficult to land if your opponent can sidestep.

And A Real Hiero8 votes

And a long cooldown, puts Shen in danger, huge cost on his energy pool.

Doseqis5 votes

It is about the stats though, a Darius who builds damage having more hp than a shen who built a tank item first is pretty gross.

EvilUnicornLord25 votes

Tanks are supposed to be hard to kill. If they're easy to kill, they aren't doing their job right.

GULAG 4 U1 votes

Depends, if the enemy adc is full build and you have a ga and an abyssal scepter+Iceborn gaunlet you aren't supposed to be hard to kill

Edit: What part of what I said was false??

EvilUnicornLord26 votes

That's not exactly full tank, though.

GULAG 4 U2 votes

Well you didn't mention full tank exactly, but the state of the game at the moment is "Tanks are good mid and do nothing late unless you play correclty"

EvilUnicornLord4 votes

I've never heard of a tank going mid except for Galio.

And tanks exist because of late game. Otherwise teamfights are just going to be the glass-cannon carries in a game of "Who-can-blow-the-other-person-up-quicker?"

But, yeah, unless you play tanks, you probably wouldn't know that most don't really build damage items like juggernauts do.

GULAG 4 U4 votes

I meant mid game, not mid lane.

EvilUnicornLord8 votes

Oh.

Awkwardly shifts away

Melledoneus13 votes

This is a misconception. Tanks are very useful late game, as they provide a barrier between squishy carries and assassins that can blow each other up. They act as walls that collide with one another. A proper tank will be able to let his carries mow down the enemy team safely. Even if you don't do much, just your presence alone is enough to prevent an assassin from diving your carry when your team is grouped.

And A Real Hiero5 votes

I hate that Shen is "encouraged to build tank" because he has horrible base stats, and the only real scaling for tank being his passive.

The Yetii Rider4 votes

One thing I have a huge problem with is how reliant Shen is on his Shadow Dash hitting now. Not just for the taunt, for the energy restore. It's a little ridiculous that Shen has enormous energy costs that are completely tied to hitting a single skill shot that all of his other counterplay is tied to. Like, if the enemy dodges my E, they're not taunted. Isn't that enough? Why am I punished for them dodging my E twice, both with missing my main form of CC and losing out on my only form of Energy regeneration?

Would be nice to have the Energy regen on E lowered, but then add a buff to W where Shen gets Energy back for each time an enemy champion misses an auto because of his W.

Aptest3 votes

Considering he has an AOE anti-AA field that protects all his allies... ... and global map presence....

... im not comfortable with the idea that he should ALSO be a duelist.

Ralanr2 votes

IMO his dueling should only be effective to juggernauts and tanky bruisers. Against actual duelists his damage should be weaker because his Q is %health damage.

Aptest1 votes

you mean he is supposed to be good against the class of champions that has issues closing range but is supposed to obliterate opponents that come into melee?

Ralanr4 votes

Well when you put like that, of course it sounds bad. But as a warden tank he needs to be some sort of threat to help him peel targets.

If he could only taunt but barely fight back, then his taunt would be leading to his death too often.

Aptest2 votes

"duelist" is the same as saying "he should be winning this matchup 1v1" against a wide range of opponents.

Melledoneus7 votes

"Duelist" actually implies that he has the tools to fight one on one against some champions and come out on top if utilized correctly.

It does not ensure victory.

Teridax686 votes

It might not look like it, but Shen gives up a lot for his duelist capabilities. Even with a larger E hitbox, his overall crowd control is sub-par for a tank, and whereas most of his competitors are loaded with AoE damage and disables, Shen is mostly limited to fighting targets one at a time. Shen is a duelist not just because of abilities that make him good one-on-one, but because it's impossible for him to not duel in combat. His dueling power is also heavily windowed, and using his basic abilities deprives him of large amounts of damage, defense and mobility respectively. If Shen manages to force an opponent to duel against him when he's strong, he deserves to have the upper hand, especially if that target is a fighter or another tank. Even so, there are plenty of ways to deal with him even when all of his stuff is up, and in spite of his duelist strength, there are plenty of ways to out-trade and kite him.

Melledoneus12 votes

{quoted}

Considering he has an AOE anti-AA field that protects all his allies...

His W is really strong on paper but when it can't be freely positioned and lasts for a measly 1.75 seconds and has a long CD, it doesn't seem as good.

... and global map presence....

I mean, on a 3 minute cooldown that roots him in place for 3 seconds, is interruptible, and doesn't ensure a teleport like the summoner spell, not to mention being the strongest ability on him and basically what makes him unique, I like it.

... im not comfortable with the idea that he should ALSO be a duelist.

He's always been a duelist. Vorpal blade's healing, his shield, his damaging passive, they were all tools to help Shen win sustained fights pre-rework. His new Q, his passive, and his W all scream that as well. I agree that the prospect of having a tank that can duel is scary, but I only mean that he can go toe-to-toe with big, burly bruisers and be a threat to ADCs if he catches them out of position. I am not implying he should be a Jax or a Trundle where they beat you senselessly to death, Shen is a sustained tanky fighter with windows of power that can be avoided. Anything with good sustain that builds magic resist can beat Shen unless he's ahead with a Titanic Hydra.

Aptest1 votes

than he's not a "dueling champion". He's just a champion that's specifically good against some opponents.

not the same thing.

And A Real Hiero11 votes

If hes good at 1v1 that means hes a duelist.

Stephenizgod1 votes

Why is Shen even a tank? He is a Ninja right? Him being a peeling duel tank doesn't make any sense... It would be interesting to keep the general idea but let him be an actual ninja.

Melledoneus7 votes

He leads a warrior clan that consists of ninjas. Akali the only real stealthy ninja, while Kennen is more like a really fast get in-get out fighter. Shen is a more powerful, spiritual ninja whose job consists of an impossibly difficult task, given the ability to appear and reappear anywhere between planes.

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