Thornmail... What am I supposed to do with this?

Mal the Red·Jul 13, 2017·3 votes·1,263 views

First off, let me state that I am a Mastery 7 Rammus.

Thornmail has always been a core part of my kit. But it is so WEAK now. I love the Bramble Vest, that's an okay early item, but upgrading it to Thornmail takes longer than ever and doesn't add enough. I think the big problem here is the addition of Warden's Mail to the recipe.

I never bought it before because I didn't want to slow my opponent's attack speed while I'm taunting them. They hit me more, they take more damage from my W and Thornmail. Not to mention the absolute GUTTING the return damage took. I'm probably not even going to build it anymore until it gets fixed, and this saddens me.

13 Comments

TheHappyReaperzJul 13, 20173 votes

Items shouldn't be changed to fit single champions, alienating the majority. Best case scenario, Thornmail stays the same, and Rammus gets buffed.

Archlord AatroxJul 13, 20173 votes

rammus received like three major buffs recently, has a built in thornmail, and thornmail grants health now, and you're still upset

Mal the RedJul 13, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Brodominus Rex,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=32WPQFvN,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-07-13T18:33:22.707+0000)

rammus received like three major buffs recently, has a built in thornmail, and thornmail grants health now, and you're still upset

Actually, yes. The patch notes admit that this change was to lower the synergy between Rammus and Thornmail.

And Rammus has not been majorly buffed at all since his mini-rework.

Wood Elo GodJul 13, 20172 votes

Yeah thornmail was only necessary if there was a 3-4 pure AD team with a lot of AA's before it was in a bad spot. Now its in an even worse spot. Great bramble patch item but why would I want to wear an item that reflects LITTLE TO NO damage and causes grievous wounds and spend an extra 900 gold on slowing their ability to do so?

C9 Squeeky Jul 13, 20171 votes

healing for half can be just as damaging

Mal the RedJul 13, 20171 votes

{quoted}

healing for half can be just as damaging

It really, really, isn't.

Old Thornmail did a significant amount more damage.

15% of Damage Taken + 25% of Bonus armor. VS. 25 + 10% of Bonus Armor.

It is very VERY clear which one is more damaging, even if you give the latter Grievous Wounds.

JabberwöckyJul 13, 20171 votes

It shouldnt have the attack slow. but the aoe Slow that randiums has on active if anything.

You WANT them to attack you with this item....

C9 Squeeky Jul 13, 20171 votes

For anyone except Rammus, Thornmail is a buff, even with the cold steel passive. Survivability (and grievous wounds) is more important than doing thorn damage that you could lifesteal up before the update. NOW you can't lifesteal to counter thornmail; thornmail counters lifesteal. Slower attacks means taking less damage as well which means dying slower, which means more useful to team. You shouldn't be relying on tanks/thornmail to kill your enemies, your carries should be doing that for you. GW also applies to all healing, HP5, support heals, redemption, etc.

Mal the RedJul 13, 20171 votes

{quoted}

For anyone except Rammus, Thornmail is a buff, even with the cold steel passive. Survivability (and grievous wounds) is more important than doing thorn damage that you could lifesteal up before the update. NOW you can't lifesteal to counter thornmail; thornmail counters lifesteal. Slower attacks means taking less damage as well which means dying slower, which means more useful to team. You shouldn't be relying on tanks/thornmail to kill your enemies, your carries should be doing that for you. GW also applies to all healing, HP5, support heals, redemption, etc.

You say that like GW negates all healing... It doesn't... It only cuts it in half...

While there is utility in the new Thornmail, it is undoubtedly weaker, and more expensive, than it used to be.

C9 Squeeky Jul 13, 20171 votes

I never said GW negated healing, I said it applies to all healing sources, which includes HP5 regen, ally champs, etc.

It's not meant to be an all-around item that you rush, especially since the bonus armor ratio is lower than before (you need more armor). But it would be wrong to say that GW is a weak stat. If thornmail is really that bad, or if Rammus needs help, they will buff.

Mal the RedJul 14, 20171 votes

{quoted} If thornmail is really that bad, or if Rammus needs help, they will buff.

That is ultimately what I hope will happen.

King of DemonsJul 13, 20171 votes

If you ever rushed Thornmail you've been doing it wrong.

MikeTroutIsMyDadJul 14, 20171 votes

I main adc and I refuse to play the game with this shit in the game. Granted ADC's shouldn't be able to 1v1 tanks very easily but not being able to lifesteal jack shit just ruins it for me edit: also gotta embrace the meme with the name