I am not certain why Riot puts true damage on every champion now...

Mira Arya Enthe·Jan 29, 2017·100 votes·7,270 views

But between all the true damage and %HP shred they give to everyone, it is only making it harder on themselves to balance tanking items. If they make it so x champion deals true damage and y champion deals % HP damage then tank items still have to be valid against those champions, making those tank items and masteries much stronger vs anybody who cannot get enough penetration/%shred and doesn't have it in their kit.

Adding tons of uncounterable damage is only asking for a balance nightmare.

147 Comments

D357R0Y3RJan 29, 201716 votes

when a spell has true damage in it that means riot wants you to play around the spell instead of building defense to counter the spell

not saying it's a good idea, just explaining how riot works

Mira Arya EntheJan 29, 20174 votes

Yes, but it also messes with the balance of tank items. Sure some true damage and %HP damage should exist, but too much of it and tank items end up all out of whack.

The Scout GirlJan 29, 201748 votes

glad i can play around vaynes w active that can miss , amirite ?

D357R0Y3RJan 29, 201735 votes

that's exactly the problem, some champion's true damage are badly designed leaving no room to play around it Fiora unless she ulti it's very possible to play around hit points Vayne playing around her W is "not letting her attack 3 times" which is almost impossible due to her passive+attack speed

The Scout GirlJan 29, 201721 votes

good , lets take away vaynes % hp true damage and put it on teemos mushrooms , they have counterplay item 3364 item 3341 item 2055

summoner 14 Teemo

D357R0Y3RJan 29, 20172 votes

teemo isn't supposed to do a lot of damage though, unless riot intended him to be a hyper carry

The WhamboozlerJan 29, 20179 votes

Not a lot of BURST damage. Check the endgame stats of any match with a Teemo in it and you'll see he tends to be very high on the charts even if he splitpush all game just due to shrooms. (For normal, AP teemo at least) Whether you think a champion based around hurting your team with traps is fun or not is a matter of debate but that little pecker puts out a lot of hurt over the course of a game... it's really all he's good for. Forcing backs or whittling down enemy HP before fights with his freakin' land mines.

~sincerely, A Teemo player

TeCoolMageJan 30, 20174 votes

"Damage is meaningless without context"

-Scarra

The WhamboozlerFeb 1, 20171 votes

This is very true, but it doesn't mean that all that damage did nothing. It's impossible to say if the huge pile of Teemo damage was vital to the game or if it was mostly people hitting shrooms at odd times and not being punished for it. This is one of the reasons why Teemo isn't popular with higher end players. His ult is just REALLY unreliable.

But that damage does matter. It's just hard to say how much. It varies.

Arya RivenJan 29, 20175 votes

Uhm dude. Teemo was intended to be a hypercarry marksman. He use to do so with AP builds until they nerfed his AP ratios over and over and over. Now he is an attack speed on hit hyper carry.

Rito StaffJan 29, 20172 votes

That's all deceptive of his real strenght. The shroom map control. You probably never played against one.

You step the first ones haha funny - you proceed to play the game and realize you only feel safe behind minion waves.

Srsly tho, playing Teemo like that is just like playing the generic ADC, meh.

Arya RivenJan 30, 20173 votes

Shroom map control is great. But Teemo is still a high damage late game hyper carry. Heck. Pro coach LS literally described him as an attack speed split push suicide bomber. The shrooms do their thing regardless of your presence or not.

The Scout GirlJan 29, 201711 votes

Teemo builds: Nuclear Shroom AP often with Nashor and/or Lichbane for burst and DPS.

On-hit, one of few champions who makes good use of rageblade. Builds 3-4 on-hit attack speed items and a Frozen Mallet for slows and HP.

Jungle, builds Bloodrazor into on hit.

Tankmo, mostly a joke used to induce ragequit and make use of his global taunt.

AD, doesn't actually work.

As you can see 4/5 builds on Teemo are mostly damage.

His kit also has large base damages and huge scalings with more than one damage steroid and a movement speed buff.

He is most certainly meant to do damage. Tho giving him %hp true damage was a joke.

Mighty MorteinJan 31, 20171 votes

I love the gunblade into magic pen build for teemo. Just watch them pop with your combo. It is great.

The Scout GirlJan 31, 20171 votes

gunblade is great for popping blinded vaynes and healing all their damage while you literally hold position watching them spin around you with their outplays . lol

Mighty MorteinFeb 1, 20171 votes

Even the healing on mushrooms and autos + blinds. You sustain pretty well with it.

StandgroundingJan 29, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Scout Girl,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=327tdN3I,comment-id=0001000100000000,timestamp=2017-01-29T17:46:23.641+0000)

good , lets take away vaynes % hp true damage and put it on teemos mushrooms , they have counterplay

YES. Approved by Teemo main.

Big LincolnJan 29, 201713 votes

true damage isn't a problem; some champions Camille just have too much of it

% damage is annoyingly prevalent but resists are easy to acquire

A DoorknobJan 30, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=327tdN3I,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-01-29T17:42:59.366+0000)

true damage isn't a problem; some champions just have too much of it

% damage is annoyingly prevalent but resists are easy to acquire

It does present a problem when a plentiful of champs start having it and it becomes part of the meta as there is no way to properly tank true dmg. Usually a team consisted a mix of AD and AP for dmg. Now you could technically void all of that and go team true dmg and it would be just as effective or possibly be more. A team of 5 would have to experiment this but I'd assume it would be a huge pain to deal with.

Dessert IslandJan 30, 20172 votes

A true damage team would be a nightmare. Fiora / Camille top, Olaf jg, Ahri mid, Vayne bot, Velkoz support. Some %hp true damage combined with flat true damage would cut through the opposing teams tanks and squishies like butter!

TyrekGoldenspearJan 29, 20179 votes

Welp, here's a list from the wiki that features every champ with true damage towards champions.

Fiora Gangplank Garen Irelia Twitch Vayne MasterYi Ahri Camille Chogath Darius KogMaw Olaf RekSai Velkoz

Of these 15 champs, we have 8 squishies and 7 tanky champs.

All the tanky champs are kitable or deal their true damage through conditional autos only, Garen , Chogath , Darius , RekSai , Irelia , Olaf Camille

All of the squishy champs can be easily blown up or have their true damage dodged.

The few champs with unavoidable true damage are squishy.

However not all of these champs are necessarily dangerous to a tank.

These champs are probably only Fiora Garen (when villain) Twitch Vayne MasterYi Darius (when fully stacked) Velkoz Camille ?

Of these champs they are mostly squishy and easily dealt with (insert Vayne joke here), so I don't think tank build optimization is too dire. I'm not including %health shreds because these are mostly done through physical or magic damage, and they start falling off as resistances are built, so they aren't exactly chewing through tanks in a second or two.

However with that said, I wouldn't mind more tank items.

Also, %health damage is a relative non-factor to squishies, as they take the least damage from it.

ntbcoolJan 30, 20178 votes

Thank you. saved me time. Out of laziness im gonna use your research and just add on to it.

I am not certain why Riot puts true damage on every champion now...

lets see if this is true. I'll use gnars release as a starting point because anything before then isn't really fair to call "now".

champions with true damage before then: Velkoz Twitch Irelia Vayne MasterYi Darius Ahri Chogath KogMaw Olaf

champion releases with true damage: RekSai Camille

champions updated and got true damage from it: Garen Fiora Gangplank

so out of 15 champion releases 2 have true damage. and out of 20 champion updates (using https://support.riotgames.com/hc/en-us/articles/202294884-Champion-Update-Schedule because im lazy) and 4 class updates they have added true damage to 3. but even then gangplank and garen are both very minor with one being only a small part of his damage and the other being situational.

so they started with 11 champions with true damage and after 20 champion updates, 4 class updates, and 15 champion releases there are now 15 doesn't sound that weird....

TyrekGoldenspearJan 30, 20172 votes

No problem mate! Upvoted your contribution as it's quite enlightening. Velkoz

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

ApollogyJan 30, 20171 votes

When Garen does 1800 true damage instantaneously to me when I'm supposed to be a tank, and literally negates my entire kit's purpose when it comes to sustaining vs damage...

There's a problem...

Also, anyone who can inflict both %HP damage and True damage is more or less impossible to build defenses against. If you build more HP, they do more damage. If you build more resistances, then you're not protected against their damage. True damage coupled with %HP damage motivates me to just build a pure damage/lifesteal/spell vamp build. Life steal is probably the only answer to such a situation, except in instances where the true damage comes at you instantly in a massive burst. (See: Garen)

If you're forced to stack HP to protect against true damage, now you're lacking resistances vs the %HP damage that's coming your way. It's a build optimization nightmare.

TyrekGoldenspearJan 30, 20176 votes

1800 true damage instantaneously to me when I'm supposed to be a tank, and literally negates my entire kit's purpose when it comes to sustaining vs damage... There's a problem...

Dude, this only happens when A: You're the villain, and B: You're low health. Stop looking at the large numbers. Most of it is purposely overkill to make sure that it's an execute.

%HP damage is almost always done in a manner that can be itemized against.

Example: item 3153 Buy Armor. The %HP damage is physical, so it's lessened by armor.

As for optimization, just buy a balance. Buy Armor for Physical, MR for Magic, and True damage is pretty much taken care of as the MR and Armor items you bought stack health.

ApollogyJan 30, 20171 votes

People keep saying that Camille turns on-hits into true damage.

That means that Botrk does true damage on Camille.

I know it isn't constant, but it's there. Also, when I've got 2400 HP as a tank and Garen does 1800+ true damage to me, I wasn't low HP, I got hit by maybe 2 autos from another enemy champ, and maybe took some AoE damage, now I'm dead from a point and click ability that inflicts nearly my entire HP bar in damage. My champion is supposed to sustain through damage in long fights, and I know that burst is a huge counter to sustain, but when there's no way I can itemize against that damage except by building my champion incorrectly (meaning I'm now less effective vs the other 4 enemy champions), or I just have to play a different champion, (which isn't always a choice if I picked before Garen was picked)...

I just want a way to play against it. As a tanky champion with low mobility, I can't kite Garen, and even if I had a champion that is strong at kiting, Garen does have his Q, and his ult has a bit of range.

I don't think these things are overpowered, but it just makes it more or less impossible to build defensively against. I can't pick up a warmog's just because they have a Garen, when two other champs on their team inflict %HP damage, and now I can't build resistances, because one of those %HP damage champions does true damage on top of the true damage that Garen has.

I understand that the point of true damage is for it to be "true" damage, but there's rarely effective counterplay besides just killing or cc'ing the other person. Like I said, lifesteal is probably the only true counter to a %hp and true damage mix. You can go with a low HP pool and maybe build an item like Tmail or Banshee's to protect against the %hp damage, and then at the same time you'll sustain through their true damage. (their non true damage isn't effective against you, and you're healing for hopefully more than their true damage).

Although, like I said before, when Garen can 80-0 me with the click of a button... I should just split push 100% of the time and avoid fighting altogether.

MEMEME670Jan 30, 20177 votes

Also, when I've got 2400 HP as a tank and Garen does 1800+ true damage to me, I wasn't low HP, I got hit by maybe 2 autos from another enemy champ, and maybe took some AoE damage, now I'm dead from a point and click ability that inflicts nearly my entire HP bar in damage.

This is just a straight up lie. Here, I'll even do the math for you to prove it.

Garen ult does 525 + 40% missing hp damage at max rank. For you to have taken 1800 damage, 1800 - 525 = 1275 damage needs to have come from the 40% missing hp portion.

40% x 2.5 = 100% 1275 x 2.5 = 3187.5

So you'd need to be missing over 3k hp for the missing hp portion of Garen's ult to do that much damage, which you obviously couldn't be if your max hp was 2400.

Inuyasha99999Jan 30, 20172 votes

thanks for putting him in his place, as a garen main i knew this was a garbage post

ApollogyJan 30, 20171 votes

Only quoting what I've seen in game.

Glory ln DeathJan 30, 20171 votes

And, as has been statistically proven to you, you are either completely mistaken about what you saw, or you are lying about one or more aspects of the scenario.

ApollogyJan 31, 20171 votes

Someone else mentioned that death recap can mislead people.

I think you're just toxic as all heck, and that's the only reason you're acting this way. No need to be hostile.

Death recap showed over 1800 damage. I ain't exaggerating, that's what the game told me.

Automated RivenJan 30, 20173 votes

You would have to have 5000 health and be missing almost 3200 of it in order for garen to do 1800 true damage to you. I get its frustrating to be a tank and gave garen or darius execute you but seriously if you are going to complain about it use realistic numbers that you dont have to create a custom game and run simulations just to find out if its even possible.

ApollogyJan 30, 20171 votes

Um...

I had somewhere over 2000 HP...

He did 1800 true damage to me in game. A regular game. Literally almost one shot me.

Automated RivenJan 31, 20171 votes

you are literally exagerating. its impossible. do the math. Garens ult at level 16 has 525 base damage plus 40% of your missing health. so 1800 - 525 is 1275. 1275*2.5 is 3187. so in order for garen to do 1800 damage to you, you have to be missing 3187 health. so you would have to have (1800+3187) health (4987) health in order for you to exactly die from having 1800 true damage done to you from garen ult. If you had over 2k when he ulted you would have had to have had at least 5188 health. This is pretty unrealistic unless your playing nunu

ApollogyJan 31, 20171 votes

Maybe death recap lied to me.

1841 true damage

Automated RivenFeb 1, 20171 votes

well save the game and post a recording so we can all see it. otherwise I just simply dont believe you. no offense.

404 TerrorJan 29, 20178 votes

Tanks aren't meant to be unkillable. They're supposed to be utilized for enage/peels and resets.

macromiteJan 29, 201716 votes

they are, however, meant to take one hell of a beating before they die.

Nightcrow TeoJan 30, 20175 votes

Poppy What is death?

Spice POWAHJan 30, 20179 votes

Karthus My benefit!

Nightcrow TeoJan 30, 20173 votes

Urgot You haven't killed me yet

Duke of SlothsJan 30, 20178 votes

Ok lets check out all of the recent big reworks/champ releases and see how many have true damage

Warwick No Camille Yes Ivern No Kled No Taliyah No AurelionSol No Jhin No Illaoi No Kindred No TahmKench No Kalista No Ekko No Bard No RekSai Yes

There is no true damage increase going on, it is still rare.

Faceroll TacticsJan 29, 20177 votes

Riot is very split at the moment, it feels like 3 different companies than one.

Some rioter said that Yasuo having so much mobility isn't necessarily the best thing and they don't want to put that much damage into a mobile champ again

One week later Camille is released

Sugar MommaJan 29, 20176 votes

Let me begin by saying I agree with you. However, there is a reason for it and I'll attempt to give it:

The champions being given %HP/true dmg currently are mostly melee champions (I don't think that Jhin really needs it, and Kindred sort of depends on it).

The reason they are giving melee champions %HP/true damage is to discourage squishy/damage champions from buying tank items. There is nothing preventing carries from buying defensive items, and indeed this was very common pre-S4.

This being said, Riot IS giving pretty much EVERY melee dmg champion %HP/true dmg.

Take the last 10 champions released: Camille Ivern Kled Taliyah AurelionSol Jhin Illaoi Kindred TahmKench Ekko

The only mage champions here are the ONLY ones without %HP/true dmg. Ivern Taliyah AurelionSol

Mira Arya EntheJan 29, 20174 votes

The problem isn't when they use it vs ranged squishies who die in one shot anyway. It is when they use it against other melees who cannot counter build them. But they can counterbuild other said melees because they don't have it.

macromiteJan 29, 20172 votes

the thing discouraging squishies from building defense should be how it stacks, it's build position, and damage cuts. not things that counter building defense entirely.

I mean, it used to be that adc's would build a proper defensive item.

Head ConnoisseurJan 29, 20174 votes

Aurelion? Taliyah? Ivern? WW update?

Autrah FangJan 30, 20172 votes

{quoted}

WW update?

new Warwick has +6/7/8/9/10% target max hp damage :)

Edit: i thought old WW didn't have %hp damage, but he actually did

GrandpaTheGreatJan 30, 20173 votes

Didn't old warwick have %HP damage too?

ÇhåryzårdJan 30, 20173 votes

The way I feel is, if a champ has true damage then there has to be a way to avoid it

Like Vayne's W is unavoidable and bullshit, so by late game when she has items (because she gets strong JUST from farm) she's shredding people with her true damage and there's no way to stop it except CC her...but when she 2-3 shots squishies that have CC it's hard to do that especially when she's ulting and invisible unless you have really quick reflexes.