ADCs are not weak.

After3perma·Nov 26, 2018·30 votes·6,957 views

ADC role is a complete coin flip like every other role in this game. You get a good ADC and a bad ADC.

ADCs are the reason why this game is shit nowadays.

Stormrazor exists. Tanks nerfed heavily so ADCs can kill them in 2 seconds solo. IE giving true damage. Crit items cost lowered.

But apparently everybody says ADCs are weak all season every season. ADcs should be weak because they are the hardest scaling champion in the game. In the late game they are unstoppable and if they get a few kills early, they snowball with all the turret changes also.

76 Comments

MegaSpaceJXNov 26, 201814 votes

If hashshinshin who hates adcs thinks adcs are weak this post shouldn't even be a thing.

Critmaster GarenNov 26, 201812 votes

{quoted}

If hashshinshin who hates adcs thinks adcs are weak this post shouldn't even be a thing.

even if that was correct, we have seen what happens when they arent weak. season 6, 7 and the first half of season 8 was terrible for everyone who didnt play adc.

the problem with adc is that range doesnt have a mechanic to counterbalance in this game. no turn rate or something similar, means the only way adc are balanced is by factoring their range into the power budget of their stats.

but since range is so huge in terms of power, they either cant deal a crazy amount of damage, in which case they arent carries, or they have to be so squishy that they have to almost immediately die in fights.

i mean just look at dark harvest this preseason and klepto last preseason. ranged champions stack both runes twice as fast when they arent nerfed for ranged auto attacks in some form. even after klepto nerfs, the strongest users were still ezreal and gangplank with his q effectively being a ranged auto attack. you also had viktor, and pre rework swain who abused the shit out of the rune. in almost all cases it was ranged champions who used the rune to the most effect. now its the same with dark harvest.

both cases arent fun for adc to play. but if they did have damage and the survivability to use it, then theyre automatically overtuned as fuck because no one can deal with them.

GrokmirNov 26, 20182 votes

The funny thing is that its almost never adcs themselves that are op. Jhin/lucian op during lethality meta? Oh wait thats cuz lethality was busted. Hypercarry adc's op during ardent meta? Oh wait thats cuz ardent/enchanter supports made adc's immortal.

Now that i think about it, i don't think there has ever really been an "adc meta". Its always something else in the game that is overtuned that makes em stronger. But nah lets just blanket blame adcs and thier playerbase.

3TWarriorNov 27, 20182 votes

season one through six with crit or life-steal or both-based marksmen... they were the meta then and tankbusters or hyper-carries were the best of them

season 7 came around and only proved how powerful they were because BURST MARKSMEN came out of hiding and one-shot their opponents, making them pick or ban status (miss fortune, draven, etc) but instead people cried that they were weak while champs that highlighted how much damage was in the game thrived (kha zix, rengar, or anything that could get to bottom lane)

then, to try and help the "weaker" marksmen, riot introduced the Ardent Censor meta

GrokmirNov 27, 20181 votes

Season one through six adcs weren't dominating the meta. It was always either top/jungle/mid that had really problematic champs/classes. Adcs just spent all those seasons rotating between the top 3 adcs in botlane and the rest of the game was barely affected by those rotations. For the rest of the players in the game, as long as the strongest adcs were being picked, it entirely didnt matter which adcs were actually being picked. They just played their role in the game, which i guess some people don't like?

And why were burst adcs good iin season 7? Lethality. The new ASSASSIN stat/items turned out to be too strong on those champs. The items got nerfed and suddenly burst marksmen weren't insane anymore. Its almost as if the items were breaking the champs, not that the champs themselves were powerful or busted.

Riot "introduced" the ardent meta because of the lethality meta. It was to directly counter the the types of champs that loved lethality, assassin, items. And guess what, adc's weren't the problem in the ardent meta. Its literally in the name. Ardent, and by extension, enchanter supports were too powerful and too good at their jobs. And their jobs were to keep the adc alive and increase the adc's strength. Adc became seen as "op" because an entirely separate class was actually op.

For whatever reason, people just forget that supports exist and refuse to believe that supports can be too strong. I'll never understand it. Some people are just hell bent on removing adc from the game for whatever reason, even when adcs aren't even close to being balance issues. This anti-adc circlejerk is just preventing actual balance issues from being fixed.

3TWarriorNov 28, 20182 votes

really? vayne was one of the harshest experiences of the season when a player played her well. She could take out half of your team by herself... and marksman has of course been the only "required" class ever since meta started for league...

I don't want marksmen or AD carries removed, but for the majority of league's existence, they've had it the best of any class...

GrokmirNov 28, 20181 votes

Vayne was only strong because there weren't any champs botlane that could really punish her early game. She's just the kind of champ that thrives when the meta isn't super aggressive/early game.

And at this point we have had several metas (including now) where adc hasn't been mandatory botlane. Its no longer true to just say they have always been required every single game.

3TWarriorNov 28, 20182 votes

I just said "majority" XD there have been few points where they were not mandatory

GrokmirNov 29, 20181 votes

You also said "marksman has of course been the only "required" class ever since meta started for league".

Which implies all of league's existence, not majority.

3TWarriorNov 29, 20181 votes

when it's 90% , does it really matter that it is not "all" of league and that 10% is just fluff for season 8? Even when Ziggs was meta ADC, he was still played against by an opposing marksman

even now when there are other meta picks, marksmen are still the go to class, especially for early damage carries like Lucian

AirKingNeoNov 26, 20184 votes

even if that was correct, we have seen what happens when they arent weak. season 6, 7 and the first half of season 8 was terrible for everyone who didnt play adc.

black white fallacy. You're thinking that it is either "adcs are weak" or "adcs are broken" without an inbetween.

Critmaster GarenNov 26, 20183 votes

{quoted}

black white fallacy. You're thinking that it is either "adcs are weak" or "adcs are broken" without an inbetween.

its not a fallacy when its a fact. the past has proven this to be true.

SwiftKitten88Nov 26, 20181 votes

{quoted}

If hashshinshin who hates adcs thinks adcs are weak this post shouldn't even be a thing.

right because hashinshin has ever been right about anything balance wise... [sg-miss-fortune]

he cant even figure out whats balanced in his OWN lane. let alone the rest of the map...

Rock MDNov 27, 20181 votes

{quoted}

right because hashinshin has ever been right about anything balance wise... [sg-miss-fortune]

he cant even figure out whats balanced in his OWN lane. let alone the rest of the map...

I don't think you need to flame Hash when your own balance ideas are silly at best and the reason boards shouldn't discuss balance at worst.

mack9112Nov 26, 20187 votes

They just need to scale a little faster and they will be fine.

Critmaster GarenNov 26, 201818 votes

{quoted}

They just need to scale a little faster and they will be fine.

no they wont. are you fucking nuts?

theyre geared to scale into a massive lategame. if they scaled faster wed have the same shit wed have pre crit item nerfs.

the reasonable solution would be to make games overall last longer, so champions could have distinct game phases again in which theyre strong.

lane phase 15 to 20 minutes, midgame, 15 to 30 minutes, lategame 25 to 40 minutes.

the problem isnt adc scaling, but how riot pushes for shorter and faster games. the entire champion pool is simply not capable of being equally relevant for the first 15 minutes without certain champions just getting out of hand at 20 minutes.

most of the champion pool has been designed around being relevant at certain times of the game.

Nasus is a lategame champion who is weak early.

Renekton is an early game champion who is weak late.

Darius is a midgame champion.

if you compress a game that is balanced around having 35 min on average game time into 20 minutes, then these power curves lose their meaning, and league of legends becomes a steaming pile of shit in which either only early game champions matter, or lategame champions scale too fast.

mack9112Nov 26, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=31EGYyEc,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-11-26T15:16:15.106+0000)

no they wont. are you fucking nuts?

theyre geared to scale into a massive lategame. if they scaled faster wed have the same shit wed have pre crit item nerfs.

the reasonable solution would be to make games overall last longer, so champions could have distinct game phases again in which theyre strong.

lane phase 15 to 20 minutes, midgame, 15 to 30 minutes, lategame 20 to 40 minutes.

the problem isnt adc scaling, but how riot pushes for shorter games. the entire champion pool is simply not capable of being equally relevant for the first 15 minutes without certain champions just getting out of hand.

Adc problem is that they have a great first item power spike but a poor second item power spike then an insane third item power spike so what you need to do is give the adc a better second power spike item and probably take some strength from the third.

I am unsure what that looks like though.

Game length is not the problem it is about feeling impactful through the whole game

Critmaster GarenNov 26, 201810 votes

{quoted}

Adc problem is that they have a great first item power spike but a poor second item power spike then an insane third item power spike so what you need to do is give the adc a better second power spike item.

I am unsure what that looks like though.

Game length is not the problem it is about feeling impactful through the whole game

if you give them a better second power spike item, then that power spike multiplies their third item power spike.

marksmen are geared around cubic scaling. you cant buff them to have a good 2 item power spike without their 3 item power spike becoming insane, and their 4 and 5 item power spike warping the game around them.

we already had that seasons 6 to 8 when item 3031 item 3087 was a good enough power spike.

mack9112Nov 26, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=31EGYyEc,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-26T15:21:45.245+0000)

if you give them a better second power spike item, then that power spike multiplies their third item power spike.

marksmen are geared around cubic scaling. you cant buff them to have a good 2 item power spike without their 3 item power spike becoming insane, and their 4 and 5 item power spike warping the game around them.

we already had that seasons 6 to 8 when was a good enough power spike.

It's all about power curve and the power curve of an adc is a little wonky it just needs to be smoothed out.

Take power from third and give to second you know what I mean ?

BestPudgeNANov 26, 20183 votes

{quoted}

It's all about power curve and the power curve of an adc is a little wonky it just needs to be smoothed out.

Take power from third and give to second you know what I mean ?

That can't really do that because the stats ADCs scale with are all multiplicative. If you got 200 AD you get more extra damage from 30IAS then if you had 100 AD, If you have 200 AD you get more extra damage from a crit then if you had 100 AD ect ect.

Ever other class needs items that don't multiple with each other. The more HP you have the better every point of armor you have is, but the having more armor doesn't improve with the MR that you're also buying, or the HP/Armor on something like item 3742 doesn't improve the damage you do with item 3078

It's not the items themselves that cause this scaling issue, it's the synergy they have with each other. The only what to get rid of this would be too remove the multiplicative scaling factors from ADC that other roles don't get to really take advantage of this. This would mean just straight up removing crit and on-hits from the game and then reworking all the ADCs other then Lucian, EZ and then on top of that reworking champs like Yas and Yi other similar champs that also need these types of items to function.

BestPudgeNANov 26, 20186 votes

{quoted}

They just need to scale a little faster and they will be fine.

Nah they need to be viewed as situational picks that aren't good against 100% of team comps and other champs need to be viable bot lane for more then a few patches.

ADCs don't need to have good 1&2 Item power spikes while having the best 3, 4, 5 and 6 item power spikes

ADCs don't need to be so strong that they're 100% pick rate in the bot lane carry role

ADCs definitely don't need to be ranged Irelias that warp the entire game around them like some of the popular streamers like T1 and QT want them to be.

mack9112Nov 26, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Nah they need to be viewed as situational picks that aren't good against 100% of team comps and other champs need to be viable bot lane for more then a few patches.

ADCs don't need to have good 1&2 Item power spikes while having the best 3, 4, 5 and 6 item power spikes

ADCs don't need to be so strong that they're 100% pick rate in the bot lane carry role

ADCs definitely don't need to be ranged Irelias that warp the entire game around them like some of the popular streamers like T1 and QT want them to be.

I agree but they still need a spot in the game

3TWarriorNov 27, 20182 votes

don't they already have one as a powerful, reliable pick that is decent early game and mid and then becomes a powerhouse mid to late?

why do they need to be powerful at all 3 phases of the game?

mack9112Nov 27, 20181 votes

{quoted}

don't they already have one as a powerful, reliable pick that is decent early game and mid and then becomes a powerhouse mid to late?

why do they need to be powerful at all 3 phases of the game?

they dont need to be powerful just from adc mains I have heard complaints they lack early game identity a rather important part of the game these days. How do you solve that issue though idk.

3TWarriorNov 27, 20181 votes

overall, I'd say the only way to do that would be to increase their vision and range but decrease their damage

that way, they feel like a "marksman" , but this could create issues as well, so what if we turned their auto attacks into skill-shots? would that balance out the damage and ability to push non-marksmen out of lane?

would it make them too similar to mages? what about the ammo system that graves and jhin share?

lots of questions, no answers

Magic 8BallDec 7, 20182 votes

ADC's should be further nerfed in my opinion. All zeal items should cost 200 - 300 gold more. ADC is fucking broken

mack9112Dec 7, 20181 votes

I'm pretty sure they are the weakest role in the game at the moment.

OtterlyLostNov 26, 20186 votes

Late game they are unstoppable except for by Jax, Irelia, Talon, Pyke, Kassadin, any tank, most mage supports, all mages... but yeah, unstoppable

RyzeTheSmurfMageNov 26, 20185 votes

All mages and any tank. And other hillarious jokes you can tell yourself

OtterlyLostNov 26, 20185 votes

I'm sorry so any mage cant just murder an ADC even late game? Even if suddenly mage damage disappeared, it still proves my point that they arent unstoppable. Theres literally a class that does everything ADCs does but better and safer. AOE Teamfight damage? Mages. Sieging? Mages. Single target damage? Mages, Assassins, and Bruisers. Tank busting? Bruisers have a keystone that is literally free and does more true damage than IE with only slightly less AD.

What the hell do the ADC class do that other classes don't currently do better, safer, and easier?

BestPudgeNANov 26, 20184 votes

{quoted}

I'm sorry so any mage cant just murder an ADC even late game? Even if suddenly mage damage disappeared, it still proves my point that they arent unstoppable. Theres literally a class that does everything ADCs does but better and safer.

But your point is moot because unstoppable is just him be hyperbolic. ADCs are simple the strongest class by far late game and any ADC that disagrees is simple kidding themselves. You know why that Akali/Zed/Irelia has focused you over the mage in late game teamfights for the last 3+ seasons? it's cause you're the much more OP threat at that point. Just because it's possible to kill the OP threat doesn't make you not the OP threat.

I lit your babyNov 26, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I'm sorry so any mage cant just murder an ADC even late game? Even if suddenly mage damage disappeared, it still proves my point that they arent unstoppable. Theres literally a class that does everything ADCs does but better and safer. AOE Teamfight damage? Mages. Sieging? Mages. Single target damage? Mages, Assassins, and Bruisers. Tank busting? Bruisers have a keystone that is literally free and does more true damage than IE with only slightly less AD.

What the hell do the ADC class do that other classes don't currently do better, safer, and easier?

Dying, i guess

RyzeTheSmurfMageNov 26, 20183 votes

Easier? No. Most mages have to hit their skillshot/skillshots (unless you are Malzahar, fed lategame wirth 300-400 stacks Veigar or Annie), while you just have to right click. Sieging? You are lying to yourself Tristana for example takes a tower much easier than any mage. And also wtf do you want better ADC to autowin in late-game? Or being the only class that carries?

AirKingNeoNov 26, 20184 votes

taliyah jungle karthus adc viktor top every meta mid laner is a mage

mages are weak tho

D357R0Y3RNov 26, 20184 votes

adc aren't weak but adc mains feel like they're weak because the game itself is garbage

if you want to fix that, you need to increase game duration through a lot of ways but riot ain't goanna do that

ankoanko19Nov 26, 20185 votes

{quoted}

adc aren't weak but adc mains feel like they're weak because the game itself is garbage

if you want to fix that, you need to increase game duration through a lot of ways but riot ain't goanna do that

I feel like, almost every ADC outside of maybe Tristana and Cait are viable. But if not every ADC is Kai'sa or Lucian levels of insane then they're weak according to Reddit and sometimes the boards.

Moody PNov 26, 20182 votes

Cait is fine

Kalista the only marksmen I'll dodge on sight if put on my team

saltranNov 26, 20182 votes

Cait is fine

Thank you mr fake account number 1562th on the Boards for your Deep analysis.

Moody PNov 26, 20182 votes

is this supposed to be an argument

saltranNov 26, 20182 votes

No, I dont discuss with fake/dead accounts, go to Reddit if you want to be anon.

RexxieeNov 26, 20184 votes

Adcs are literally trash tier now, even hashinshin admits.

But theres no winning with the silver players on boards who think that adc is somehow even playable now.

Adc is so bad right now that it doesnt even matter who you pick, you just win/lose based on other lanes.

AirKingNeoNov 26, 20183 votes

Adc is so bad right now that it doesnt even matter who you pick, you just win/lose based on other lanes.

kai'sa or lucian

But theres no winning with the silver players on boards who think that adc is somehow even playable now.

boards thinks mages are weak

Heos00Nov 26, 20182 votes

Kai'sa or lucian what? Kai'Sa is like 47% wr and lucian falls of so much if he doesn't has a good support that can win the lane. Mages are weak and adc's are weak since is an oneshot clownfiesta everygame, but mages can still oneshot.

Dr DogNov 26, 20183 votes

kaisa and lucian =/= the entire role, go play about 10 games of adc and pick say, caitlyn and jinx every game you'll pretty quickly see how shit any adc that isnt the few meta ones are

Critmaster GarenNov 26, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Dog,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=31EGYyEc,comment-id=000600000002,timestamp=2018-11-26T18:20:31.709+0000)

kaisa and lucian =/= the entire role, go play about 10 games of adc and pick say, caitlyn and jinx every game you'll pretty quickly see how shit any adc that isnt the few meta ones are

go into top lane and pick garen every single game. youll quickly see how shitty fighters are.

just because you cant play the same champion into every single matchup doesnt mean the entire class is weak.

CloudedLogicNov 26, 20183 votes

That's literally the opposite of what he said.

He said if you don't pick the same two champions into every match up you lose...

Dr DogNov 26, 20184 votes

adcs arent a coin flip the jger and mid are, bot lane is almost completely reliant on these two roles. ive had shit adcs on my team that landslided the enemy, you know why? i get mid lane and fucking 4 man the enemy bot lane repeatedly it doesnt matter that the enemy adc is 10000% better than my adc when i as the jger and my mid laner have complete control over how bot lane goes, like it or not adc is a shit role and the bot laner usually doing all the work through the game is most likely gonna be the support unless the adc gets badshit fed

Torterra62Nov 26, 20183 votes

adcs are weak compared to all the bullshit that's going around now with dark harvest abusers being totally out of control. one of my recent matches involved 6 dark harvest users

BulletsV1Nov 26, 20182 votes

I am ADCMain and I love adc , but the fact that i prefer midlane over my own beloved marksman has the reason that adc feels shit and even winning is not fun anymore, its a 30 minute of running away and hoping nothing oneshots you the whole time cause in preseason everything deals a ton of damage, i am still thinking you never had to nerf adc but maybe ardent , janna , lulu and so on , cause the ardent meta was pretty much who has the better support , if you have the better one no one is ever going to die , i int in lane , lulu shields yasuo yi or irelia or jax or anything -> win , so i am irrelevant as hell . Try to play cait and not get flamed for trolling . And tbh for the price of the IE a midlaner gets a ludens and nearly boots so lets compare : adcs get 70 ad , a passiv that is useless without any other items and true dmg that is good against tanks , which are non existent 2 in the top 10 toplaners , Sion and poppy and 0 in the top 10 jgl if we dont count gragas and skarner which are fighter . A mage gets 90 ap 600 mana and 10% cdr and 10% cdr cause passiv , and a waveclear dmg passiv , so 70 ad or some good stuff . my opinion , you can think what you want but adcs ( not lucian and kaisa ) should maybe be a bit better or you should stop calling it ADCarry and rename it to Botlaner , and they are supposed to carry there is a reason teams are really willing to pay for a good adc .