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Riot's Difficulty with Morphing Champions

ModCaptainMårvelous··47 votes·3,674 views

Nidalee Jayce are the key offenders but you COULD make a case for champs like Kayle.

When Riot designed these champions, the intentions were clear: In sacrificing an ultimate, they instead had access to several additional abilities that made them more versatile than any other champion in the game. However, the issue arises that Riot struggles to balance these champions and doesn't have clear goals when it comes to their existence.

The idea is obvious: Jayce and Nidalee can engage, poke, be mobile and more at the cost of not doing it as well as more specialized champions. Yet, in practice, these champions fluctuate vastly between "hot garbage" and "Best-in-show". It also doesn't help that Riot loads them with kits that allow them to do a fair amount of things QUITE well and sacrifice next to nothing.

Take Nidalee for example:

  • Can poke, albeit that's been nerfed and is now a tool for getting in close.
  • Her engage/diving is quite strong with both a % Execute and auto-modifier.
  • Her mobility is STUPIDLY good with her passive as well as her pounce being on a short cooldown (And able to clear walls, something a champion like Kled can't do.)
  • Her utility is quite powerful as well, featuring an AS boost/Heal as well as the traps that mark, reveal -and- deal some damage over time.
  • Her clearing speed isn't all that bad either with her AoE swiping.

All on a single champion. It wouldn't be so bad if some of these skills weren't so good. Nidalee's balance problem ends up warping her playstyle every time she's changed. Is her poke and sustain good? She's an irritating poke queen who is also hard to catch when she DOES morph. Is her all-in better? Then she's a squishy-destroying beast. There's no middle ground, which is what Nidalee SEEMS to be designed to be.

Second we have Jayce:

  • Incredible strong, AoE, long-range poke from both Shockblast and Hyper charge.
  • Makeshift engage and disengage tools with Thundering blow and To the skies.
  • Movement speed utility that you can spam. (Go in and out)
  • Fairly substantial DPS output that's also mixed (% HP magic damage!?)
  • Mana restoration WAS STILL KEPT despite having mana costs adjusted.

Thus, when he's weak, Jayce is garbage. Yet when he's strong, he's a powerful poke-engage champion who bullies you in lane and dictates when you get to fight. There is no middle ground here either.

"But cap, you're just listing what makes them strong, you can do that for ANY champion!"

Yes, you can, but that doesn't change the overwhelming amount of things in their kit. For example: Why does Jayce still have mana restoration on melee W? Why does Nidalee have an execute component to her Q? Why does Jayce deal so much mixed damage? Why does Nidalee get an attack speed boost with her heal? It feels like you could cut massive chunks from these kits and still have strong jack-of-all-trade champions. Even so they bring so much to the table regardless.

I feel like Riot needs to take a second look at how they do morphing champions. As a closing comparison, look at Troll Warlord from DOTA. Yes, it's not perfect, but:

  • Q is the switch, making him either have ranged attacks or melee (plus stuns on autos and an MS improvement.)
  • Troll's W changes depending on if he has melee (AoE Blind around him) or ranged (Cone Slow in front of him)
  • E is just an AS boost.
  • R is a global AS boost.

Despite having two forms, Troll doesn't have insane utility. He doesn't do an insane amount of things. He pays for his form-swapping by having a very direct kit. Maybe this is how we can work on balancing Nidalee and Jayce. Until then, they're always going to hover between "Stupid to pick" and "Stupid to fight."

40 Comments

Big Lincoln37 votes

don't forget Elise, who last season went from bottom tier jungler to best in the game with one buff to her cocoon

A Superb Villain4 votes

Season 3 Elise still haunts my nightmares.

Karbuncle2 votes

Lol it wasn't just the cocoon buff

She has on hit healing now in spider form instead of when she uses W Spiderlings do magic damage Rappelling onto targets increases healing and damage from spiderlings

Put on hit magic damage and healing on ANY champion and they can jungle. Though you do make a point that it took literally months for other people to realize RicklessAbandon's buffs were going to put her over the top.

ACENOX1 votes

elise was unbalanced since her release

she was bottom tier jungler for one year after massive nerfs

and remember that she used to be as broken as jayce in the top lane during season 3

Anonagon17 votes

I think Riot's problems with these kinds of champions (and I'm only talking about the core three form changers here) come from a couple of things:

  • having these champions' abilities be good in their own right. When they have instant access to two sets of abilities, those abilities individually should be weaker than a comparable champion's abilities. Jayce, Nid, and to a lesser extent Elise's abilities aren't comparatively weak enough to other champion's abilities for them to be strong without being broken.

  • they let these champions be generalists rather than having unique roles. Instead of using a second set of abilities to flesh out the playstyle of the other, Riot has used them to just give them other tools. Is Jayce supposed to be a poke god? OK, why does his meleeform have an gapcloser then? Why is his secondary ranged damage ability not also something that's poke-oriented? MeleeQ and RangedW take what would otherwise be a nearly dedicated poke champion and make it also a superb duelist and hyperscaling carry.

As annoying as Gnar is as a champion, his transformation gimmick actually makes it so he avoids the problems that these other three have. Because his two forms have very clearly defined roles, and because he cannot access all 6 of his abilities at once, he isn't a generalist and his abilities can feel impactful in their own right. Gnar has problems, but those are more tied to the ranged v melee dynamic in toplane than they are to him being a form changing champion.

Sire Hippington2 votes

As annoying as Gnar is as a champion, his transformation gimmick actually makes it so he avoids the problems that these other three have.

Though Gnar still also is a problem case that either is a huge player in competetive pr basically dead. Haveing two different kits/roles on one champ just is not really possible to balance. Ganr is a massive lanebully and duelist that at times becomes a massive teamfighting suppertank. If you can play around his ragebar, then he just gives you something for prettymuch every imaginable teamcomp.

BremerdanGorst6 votes

Main issue with Jayce and Nidalee I think is that they essentially choose whether they want to interact with you, and barring certain other champions, you have no say in the matter. So they poke from afar. Miss? Try again. Hit? If the situation's advantageous, they can go in for the kill very easily with their mobility. You try and engage? They run away. Their weakness tends to be teamfights, but they can accrue such advantages with their hit and run style that they can often brute force their way through said teamfight.

Teridax685 votes

{quoted}

Nidalee Jayce are the key offenders but you COULD make a case for champs like Kayle.

When Riot designed these champions, the intentions were clear: In sacrificing an ultimate, they instead had access to several additional abilities that made them more versatile than any other champion in the game.

This is the core issue with most shapeshifters. In a class-based game, where specialization is critical in making each character stand out, the one thing you should not have a champion specialize in is versatility. If your champion gets to do more than everyone else, what they do is either balanced on the same total power budget, in which case every ability is mediocre and there's no reason to pick the champion over anyone more specialized, or balanced around standing out in at least one respect, in which case they crowd out a whole bunch of other champions because they outperform them. Jayce, Nidalee and Elise all still suffer from this to various degrees, though Jayce and Nidalee both stand out due to how prominent they've been at Worlds.

The other issue with shapeshifters is that their lack of big-cooldown ults means they have little to no real downtime on their power: even champions like Rek'Sai and Kayle, who both have form swaps, have a ton of power placed into something they can't always access, which means there are periods of time, however brief, where they can be caught at a disadvantage. By contrast, a champion like Nidalee has no real downtime: even if she misses her Q, it'll be back in a few seconds, and if you get up close, she can switch forms and dash away at will. Jayce too has both great poke and on-demand self-peel, meaning there isn't any moment where there's a clear weakness of his to exploit. It's the same problem as Ryze two reworks ago, and Kassadin even now: because they're essentially at 100% power all the time, they're either OP or UP 100% of the time, with no real middle ground. At least Gnar, who's technically two champions rolled into one, cannot fully control either half of his kit, and has a "proper" ult on top of that.

I agree with OP and I mostly agree with OP's solution: Nidalee and Jayce (and Elise, though she's less of a problem right now) need to have their kits streamlined down to a smaller, clearer set of strengths, rather than a grab bag of different tools. I'm mostly fine with Nidalee having an execute, but I don't think she should have a heal, particularly since the combination of long-range poke and healing is particularly nasty to deal with, and difficult to balance around. By contrast, I don't think Jayce's poke is really all that interesting, and I'd be more interested in him being focused on providing utility to himself and teammates. On top of that, though, they need some real downtimes: whether it's having a big, important cooldown, or only being able to access their forms conditionally, Jayce and Nidalee need moments where they're open to attack or counterattack.

Just spitballing here, but if Nidalee couldn't shapeshift at will, and the Hunted effect instantly shifted her into Cougar form instead, she'd have much better-defined kill windows, and would be much more incentivized to dive her targets after a successful Q, instead of just hanging back all the time. She could even have a proper ult with this kind of effect. If Jayce had to "charge up" his ult to unlock his other form, he wouldn't be able to shapeshift at will, which would force him to spend some time "stuck" in either melee or ranged form. Basically, any effect that would take away some of the control those champions have over their shapeshifting, or give them downtimes, could potentially make them a lot healthier, and would allow them to keep some of their versatility, even if they'd still probably have to be streamlined in the end.

Looknook2 votes

I actually really like your idea. All champs should have windows of powers and that would add actual windows to Jayce and Nidalee. Although, as with most large changes the mains of those champs would be quite upset.

The Yetii Rider5 votes

LeeSin has 7 abilities as well. Look how well that goes.

Kled is a great example of what a Morphing Champion should be. Your opponent has control over when you switch, not you. You're substantially weaker in one form than another, but in exchange Kled has one of the highest base health pools in the game and insane scaling on his ultimate shield.

Shyvana - All of her abilities are the same when she's transformed, they just all get straight buffed. This is so elegant and a great example of what a transformation should look like.

jaymc11304 votes

Pretty spot on analysis Cap.

Woodakoodashooda3 votes

Gnar Two separate forms, two separate sets of abilities, and has no ultimate except when transformed. Stats are also pretty different between the two forms to the point that when you play him, it feels like you are playing two champions who are simply a tag team.

Heimerdinger A pile of hot garbage at this point. Relies too heavily on spaghetti code AI to be efficient and his ultimate simply augments one ability of his choosing.

ModCaptainMårvelous2 votes

For Heimer, he'll unfortunately be garbage unless Riot buffs him to viability...but that means making him a solo-queue nightmare.

Gnar? He's also a champion with massive polarization. He has AoE CC, mobility, % Magic Damage, AD damage, MS boost, etc. It's not quite as bad as Nidalee and Jayce (He doesn't have as much utility as either) but Gnar still has problems when it comes to either being the dankest pick in the world or a steaming turd of the top lane.

Sebbo the Plebbo3 votes

I hate it when people describe Gnar like this. Sure, if you just list out his entire kit, he sound's stupidly overpowered, but the reality is he only has access to half of that kit at one time, with very little control over which half he has access to at any given time. Add on top of this the fact that his 2 forms have very different stats and playstyles, meaning that you either have to itemise for 1 of them and be useless whilst in the other, or attempt to itemise for both of them which leads to major comprimises being made.

Just imagine having to come up with a build that would be viable on both Vayne and Amumu. That's how limited Gnar's itemisation is

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

And yet he succeeds because of the itemization presented to him. It might be problematic if he was intended to be half-DPS and half-tank but that's just not the case. If you look at pro play and worlds, you can obviously see that Gnar builds things like black cleaver, frozen mallet, etc. Things that both enhance his tankiness and his DPS output. He's not so unique and problematic that "omg what do I build on him!?"

Let's also remove that myth that you can't control Gnar's rage. A skilled player can easily choose points of engage and play around the rage bar when it's necessary. If you lose mega when a fight breaks out, you didn't succumb to the will of random. You simply played poorly.

Sebbo the Plebbo2 votes

You say 'etc' after black cleaver and frozen mallet, but what other items does he build that increase both his DPS and tankiness?

And yes, as level 7 Gnar main, of course I'm aware that Gnar's rage can be crudely controlled. But given the fact that it is incredibly telegraphed, the opponents can also play around your rage bar and use long raged poke to nudge you over 100 rage when you are in a poor spot and unable to engage, rendering you useless in teamifghts for 20+ seconds after your rage has expired.

And finally, you say Gnar isn't unique, which shows, quite frankly, that you don't know what the flying fuck you're talking about

Guyy Fieri3 votes

I don't know...I think a lot of your points make sense. I think though that Nidalee and Jayce both lack any form of hard Cc. Sure Jayce has his knock back and. Dialed can get slows if she gets Rylai's but they are both very dependent on team that can have some true hard engage. I think, also, Nidalee can fall off very hard in the late game and while she is very strong in mid game where skirmishes are more prevalent (which Nidalee is quite good at) she can take over a game just from being so good at skirmishing - just like Lee Sin.

Not quite sure what Kayle has to do with the conversation if you can expand on why you included her.

SpookyNeedle3 votes

Those with 125+ games on Nidalee are just averaging a 50% winrate, she's quite balanced right now

http://champion.gg/champion/Nidalee

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

Win rates don't mean a thing. That also accounts for every single division so a bronze playerbase (Which league is) can easily tank the rates.

Now, if we look at statistics that DO matter:

  • Nidalee is at 100% P/B at worlds, meaning the pro playerbase sees all the value she has.
  • She's currently the second-highest banned champion, second only to Syndra, in ranked queues.

Nidalee is a problem. Winrate means nothing unless we're looking at Worlds. (Surprise surprise, she's doing well there.)

SpookyNeedle1 votes

{quoted}

Win rates don't mean a thing. That also accounts for every single division so a bronze playerbase (Which league is) can easily tank the rates.

Now, if we look at statistics that DO matter:

  • Nidalee is at 100% P/B at worlds, meaning the pro playerbase sees all the value she has.
  • She's currently the second-highest banned champion, second only to Syndra, in ranked queues.

Nidalee is a problem. Winrate means nothing unless we're looking at Worlds. (Surprise surprise, she's doing well there.)

Champion.gg is play+ only, so the winrates do matter Also she's not even the 2nd highest banned jungler http://champion.gg/statistics/#?roleSort=Jungle&sortBy=general.banRate&order=descend And isn't the worlds meta different than the solo Q meta

Dengeden2 votes

I don't think

Until then, they're always going to hover between "Stupid to pick" and "Stupid to fight."

is a point worth raising. That's also the case for any champion.

Nor do I think that comparisons to DotA get us anywhere. DotA is balanced by how difficult getting farm can get AND its champions' abilities are more individually impactful. They don't need to do an insane amount of things because using one ability hits like a truck when it hits. Which leads us to:

Why does Jayce still have mana restoration on melee W?

To reward him for risking melee form instead of spamming Q all day. To no make him 100% dependent on mana items.

Why does Nidalee have an execute component to her Q?

To reward her for hitting her spear.

Why does Jayce deal so much mixed damage?

Because a fully physical damage kit makes for insanely good synergy with armor pen. Just imagine Darius with a ranged ability shudders. (And to make his early game slightly better I admit.)

Why does Nidalee get an attack speed boost with her heal?

Because it allows for a weaker heal. It's a core aspect of LoL's roster that the champions' abilities do multiple things decently instead of one thing extremely well.

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

It absolutely is a point worth raising because a majority of champions don't fluctuate as strongly between "Garbage" and "Broken" as these shapeshifters do unless their kit has parts that are impossible to balance. (See: Kalista's passive.)

Now, here's where some of your arguments fall apart:

To reward him for risking melee form instead of spamming Q all day. To no make him 100% dependent on mana items.

Except Jayce always built mana items because of heavy mana costs. the W was just a small bonus to help mitigate some of these costs. Do you know the set of buffs that pushed Jayce over the edge? Massive mana reductions to his E. (A flat 40 vs. 40/50/60/70/80/90) Which is why Jayce can now afford to rush damage instead of things like a tear.

To reward her for hitting her spear.

Do you know what else she gets rewarded with her spear? A fairly large chunk of damage, ranged initiation, bonus movement speed and more. She already gets an "enhanced" version of both Q and W when she hits a target. She does not need five rewards for landing one spell.

Because a fully physical damage kit makes for insanely good synergy with armor pen. Just imagine Darius with a ranged ability shudders. (And to make his early game slightly better I admit.)

And the counter-point is that it's also easier to directly itemize against. Part of Corki's strenght (For example) is that he's doing heavily mixed damage, forcing you to itemize in two categores. Jayce is the same: Building flat armor won't help you against thundering blow. You know, the % Max HP damage that scales with AD but deals magic damage. You're drastically undervaluing mixed damage.

Because it allows for a weaker heal. It's a core aspect of LoL's roster that the champions' abilities do multiple things decently instead of one thing extremely well.

Soraka: Heal: 80 / 110 / 140 / 170 / 200 (+ 60% AP) with a short CD. Costs Mana + 10% of her HP Sona: Heal: 35 / 55 / 75 / 95 / 115 (+ 25% AP) x2 plus a small shield for anyone she tags. Nidalee: Minimum Heal: 25 / 45 / 65 / 85 / 105 (+ 27.5% AP) that also scales by 1% per missing HP and granting up to 80% AS.

I don't see anything "weaker" about this heal. Not to mention Nidalee will be building more AP than either of these champions. (Albeit no heal/shield power) So, yet again, Nidalee brings -three- things to the table with her heal. The heal itself, an increased based on missing HP and an attack speed boost.

Again, this illustrates how Nidalee and Jayce have so many components to their kits. Yes, they should have a lot to justify the generalization aspect, but there comes a point where the kit is overloaded. There are passives-upon-passives in each ability. There is mixed damage and bonuses awarded when there shouldn't be. etc etc etc.

Dengeden1 votes

{quoted}

It absolutely is a point worth raising because a majority of champions don't fluctuate as strongly between "Garbage" and "Broken"

Nobody would argue that Jayce was garbage before he became FotM. The reason Nid is garbage or OP is because her spear is ridiculously easy to dodge (I'll get to that later). The reason gnar is garbage or OP is because he's a lane bully. Elise because her cocoon gets .1 extra duration of CC per level.

(See: Kalista's passive.)

Kalista's problem is that her passive makes her the perfect ADC, this has nothing to do with that.

Now, here's where some of your arguments fall apart:

Except Jayce always built mana items Tear or the old Chalice because of heavy mana costs.

FTFY

the W was just a small bonus to help mitigate some of these costs. Do you know the set of buffs that pushed Jayce over the edge? Massive mana reductions to his E. (A flat 40 vs. 40/50/60/70/80/90) Which is why Jayce can now afford to rush damage instead of things like a tear.

I feel like Fervor has something to do with it too but fair enough. Being oom when transferring to hammer form would dampen his bruiser playstyle.

Do you know what else she gets rewarded with her spear? A fairly large chunk of damage,

That got nerfed repeatedly both in damage and accuracy.

ranged initiation,

Jumping at something is not initiation. Assassination if anything.

bonus movement speed and more.

And more? Do go on. That last point seemed like you were reaching a little, it was part of the "initiation" after all.

She already gets an "enhanced" version of both Q and W when she hits a target. She does not need five rewards for landing one spell.

When that spell is impossible to land and does nothing by itself, yes, yes she does.

And the counter-point is that it's also easier to directly itemize against. Part of Corki's strenght (For example) is that he's doing heavily mixed damage, forcing you to itemize in two categores. Jayce is the same: Building flat armor won't help you against thundering blow. You know, the % Max HP damage that scales with AD but deals magic damage. You're drastically undervaluing mixed damage.

And you're randomly undervaluing Armor Pen builds, which is especially weird nowadays.

Here's the thing: MR is very easy to come by in terms of items or runes and in most cases, you'll need it anyway because the mid laner is probably a mage.

Soraka: Heal: 80 / 110 / 140 / 170 / 200 (+ 60% AP) with a short CD. Costs Mana + 10% of her HP Sona: Heal: 35 / 55 / 75 / 95 / 115 (+ 25% AP) x2 plus a small shield for anyone she tags. Nidalee: Minimum Heal: 25 / 45 / 65 / 85 / 105 (+ 27.5% AP) that also scales by 1% per missing HP and granting up to 80% AS.

You're not including CDs, mana costs or taking into account that nid can't build forbidden idol and rarely goes for CDR builds. Any reason for that?

Again, this illustrates how Nidalee and Jayce have so many components to their kits.

I've already told you why that is. LoL's champion roster is generalist (in general) to make them versatile and to ensure their abilities don't have to do one thing (and one thing only) excessively well.

There are passives-upon-passives in each ability.

When you have 6 abilities and the balance philosophy I just mentioned in mind, that's not surprising.

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

{quoted}

Nobody would argue that Jayce was garbage before he became FotM. The reason Nid is garbage or OP is because her spear is ridiculously easy to dodge (I'll get to that later). The reason gnar is garbage or OP is because he's a lane bully. Elise because her cocoon gets .1 extra duration of CC per level.

Well he certainly wasn't played because why would you pick Jayce when he had to rush a tear, delay the early game advantage that he had and then be "pretty meh" late game. Not to mention the massive change in his passive scaling with AD damage, boosting him even more.

Kalista's problem is that her passive makes her the perfect ADC, this has nothing to do with that.

So one part of her kit completely warps her being good or garbage? Ah, yes, I'm glad we agree on that.

FTFY

Which is why he wasn't good. A Flat mana item early is useless unless you're Ryze. (See Blue Ezreal, who doesn't truly come online until around 3-4 items.)

I feel like Fervor has something to do with it too but fair enough. Being oom when transferring to hammer form would dampen his bruiser playstyle.

The irony is that Jayce is usually taking TLD because of the quick procs in his combo.

That got nerfed repeatedly both in damage and accuracy.

Which is around the time she went from "Stupid" to "Pretty bad."

Jumping at something is not initiation. Assassination if anything.

Nidalee ganks are quite reliant on if she hits the spear or not. Hence the initiation.

And more? Do go on. That last point seemed like you were reaching a little, it was part of the "initiation" after all.

Sure!

  • She reveals the target if it's hit in the fog of war.
  • The ramping damage component.
  • Reset the cooldown on her transformation if she recently changed out of it.
  • Forgot to mention but she can also move through units when hunting.

When that spell is impossible to land and does nothing by itself, yes, yes she does.

If the spell was truly impossible to land, she wouldn't be picked. The word you're looking for is "Difficult to land", which still doesn't justify the sheer amount of things. Heimer's grenade is hard to land yet all he gets is an AoE stun and magic damage at best.

And you're randomly undervaluing Armor Pen builds, which is especially weird nowadays.

Because mixed damage will be more valuable than sheer armor pen. I know it's fun to go on the Merry-Go-Gameplay Circlejerk of how stupidly good armor pen is but armor can still be quite valuable. Not to mention "Flat Pen" can be countered by a 300g cloth armor.

Here's the thing: MR is very easy to come by in terms of items or runes and in most cases, you'll need it anyway because the mid laner is probably a mage.

Not when you're laning or when you're in a 1v1 situation. A handful of MR isn't going to do much against an ability that deals a percentage of your HP. It just needlessly makes laning against that player all the harder.

You're not including CDs, mana costs or taking into account that nid can't build forbidden idol and rarely goes for CDR builds. Any reason for that?

Soraka: 550 Range, 70 Max mana + 10% HP, 2 second CD. Sona: 1000 Range, 100 Max Mana, 6 Second CD Nidalee: 700 Range, 120 Max Mana, 12 second CD.

Still relatively competitive. Nid has the highest cooldown and mana cost but second highest range. The disparity in CD also falls off a lot when you consider the "Heal increased by missing %", cooldown reduction having a greater effect on Nidalee than either Sona or Soraka as well as the attack speed boost lasting for a damn high 7 seconds. (Hey look, the same duration AND AS BUFF as Highlander.)

I do wish this disparity was in the every part of Nidalee's kit however.

I've already told you why that is. LoL's champion roster is generalist (in general) to make them versatile and to ensure their abilities don't have to do one thing (and one thing only) excessively well.

When you have 6 abilities and the balance philosophy I just mentioned in mind, that's not surprising.

Except that is not the cast at all. Maybe back in Season 1/2 when champs were generally supposed to fit their role but in this day and age, champions are more specialized and befitting than ever. In addition, you also don't take into account that a "jack of all trades, master of none" shouldn't be doing some things so well they're better than others.

If you can do 12 things to the level of other specialized champions or excelling beyond them, there comes a point where the champion overflows.

Dengeden1 votes

{quoted}

Well he certainly wasn't played because why would you pick Jayce when he had to rush a tear, delay the early game advantage that he had and then be "pretty meh" late game. Not to mention the massive change in his passive scaling with AD damage, boosting him even more.

You can make that argument with any champion.

So one part of her kit completely warps her being good or garbage? Ah, yes, I'm glad we agree on that.

Which isn't what you're saying about hybrids, you're saying they have too much of everything.

Which is why he wasn't good. A Flat mana item early is useless unless you're Ryze. (See Blue Ezreal, who doesn't truly come online until around 3-4 items.)

Cassio.

Also, you're acting like mana items is the only downside a champion can have.

The irony is that Jayce is usually taking TLD because of the quick procs in his combo.

Which is around the time she went from "Stupid" to "Pretty bad."

Well yeah, hitting spears as lane Nidalee became impossible after AD Nid got nerfed. The old Nid (just like Jayce originally) was all about nuking you with her long range skill shot.

Nidalee ganks are quite reliant on if she hits the spear or not. Hence the initiation.

Still doesn't make initiation. Initiation is for charging into the enemy team.

Sure!

  • She reveals the target if it's hit in the fog of war.

Any skillshot will do that. But I guess the vision is nice, albeit redundant since her traps do it too.

  • The ramping damage component.

Imagine if it was flat damage. Now imagine Nid throwing short range spears for full damage at you.

  • Reset the cooldown on her transformation if she recently changed out of it.

Well, you know, reward for hitting the spear.

  • Forgot to mention but she can also move through units when hunting.

If the spell was truly impossible to land, she wouldn't be picked. The word you're looking for is "Difficult to land", which still doesn't justify the sheer amount of things.

With how hard Q damage has been nerfed, yes it does.

Heimer's grenade is hard to land yet all he gets is an AoE stun and magic damage at best.

"All he gets is the best thing any ability can have" kek (and an ability that can't be bodyblocked). My point stands.

Because mixed damage will be more valuable than sheer armor pen. I know it's fun to go on the Merry-Go-Gameplay Circlejerk of how stupidly good armor pen is but armor can still be quite valuable. Not to mention "Flat Pen" can be countered by a 300g cloth armor.

Well I figured you were part of it. MR is valuable too, more valuable, one might argue when you consider how powerful Aegis has always been.

Physical damage procs Cleaver and it will definitely more powerful once LW is completed.

Not when you're laning or when you're in a 1v1 situation. A handful of MR isn't going to do much against an ability that deals a percentage of your HP. It just needlessly makes laning against that player all the harder.

Sure it will, %health might sound scary but all it does is get a little stronger the more HP you have. It's like any other ability. I mean yeah, Jayce jumping you will hurt but that's the case for any bruiser.

Soraka: 550 Range, 70 Max mana + 10% HP, 2 second CD. Sona: 1000 Range, 100 Max Mana, 6 Second CD Nidalee: 700 Range, 120 Max Mana, 12 second CD.

Still relatively competitive. Nid has the highest cooldown and mana cost but second highest range. The disparity in CD also falls off a lot when you consider the "Heal increased by missing %", cooldown reduction having a greater effect on Nidalee than either Sona or Soraka as well as the attack speed boost lasting for a damn high 7 seconds. (Hey look, the same duration AND AS BUFF as Highlander.)

Highlander gives an MS buff and a 100% slow resist you... and come on, you can see why Nid's heal isn't the greatest with what you stated.

I do wish this disparity was in the every part of Nidalee's kit however.

Except that is not the case at all. Maybe back in Season 1/2 when champs were generally supposed to fit their role but in this day and age, champions are more specialized and befitting than ever.

Wat. Stuff like Annie and WW are the most straightfoward champions.

In addition, you also don't take into account that a "jack of all trades, master of none" shouldn't be doing some things so well they're better than others.

That's just how it works, a champ that's in the spotlight does something better than others.

If you can do 12 things to the level of other specialized champions or excelling beyond them, there comes a point where the champion overflows.

Good thing that's an exaggeration then.

LoLKiru2 votes

Jayce's mana cost reduction on his E was not what pushed him over the edge, he never maxed E first or second to begin with, he always maxed it last (you know, when mana was a non-issue for him lol; you could revert that nerf right this second, and Jayce would remain exactly the same). Armor pen builds becoming popular is what did it, it makes his early game significantly stronger, allowing him to transition to mid and lategame easier.

We should wait and see how the season 7 changes to Armor Pen (and by that I mean armor pen being removed and replace with lethality which is pretty bad early game) affects Jayce before we make any changes to him, especially since Lethality scales on your opponents level, not yours (and Jayce, being a lane bully, in top; will likely have the highest or second highest level of anyone on the map).

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

Uh, not quite.

While it is true the E change wasn't what pushed him over the edge, it was the second change to Jayce's mana costs. in 6.6, Melee Q was reduced to 40 at all ranks from 40-> 65. Together, these mana changes made his all-in combo (Shockblast+gate, Stance change, Q, hit, E) go from 285 mana for a full-rotation to 210. Almost 100 mana off for the full combo. There were also buffs to his hammer stance but these changes made his combo a lot less mana intensive, making it easier for him to skip the tear (especially early) and still do his full combo.

The second change which also helped immensely was his passive now scaling with AD (40% AP -> 40% AD) mean he hits even harder because really who is getting AP on Jayce. While yes, the armor pen changes did help, the ability to forsake mana and focus more on penetration/AD contributed immensely to his power.

Mira Arya Enthe1 votes

This is why I hate suggestions people make about Shyvana's ult becoming more accessible and having different abilities. She would end up with the same BS as these champions.

ModCaptainMårvelous3 votes

The irony is that shyvana might actually work if she remained similar to how she is now.

IE: Low utility, CC and "mobility" (No dashes and such) but insanely high damage.

Teridax682 votes

I think one of the issues with Shyvana is actually that she already has too much stuff spread out, though not in a way that makes her good at too many things. She has three basic abilities, each with their own on-hit empowerment, and on top of that there's another layer of bonuses to those abilities and her passive during her ult. She has two different on-hit effects and an on-attack effect that do nothing but add damage, and in the end there are a lot of different effects that don't really add gameplay to each other. I think it would be alright if her ult gave her different abilities (not what I'd personally go for, though), but I agree that it should keep an ultimate-level cooldown, and her ult kit shouldn't change her role that drastically, e.g. by turning her into an assassin or whatever.

Blåbæret1 votes

Jayce needs to be nerfed so badly.

Nr 9031 votes

Nidalee has been nerfed so much, that she becomes trash late game. Literally waiting for enemies to make mistakes.

Tattersall1 votes

In sacrificing an ultimate, they instead had access to several additional abilities that made them more versatile than any other champion in the game.

Udyr Yes?

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

:(

SpookyNeedle1 votes

Kled can hop over walls with his unmounted Q can't he

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

Yes. However, his E (The actual mobility spell) cannot.

Naqel1 votes

I want support Nidalee to come back and Elise to go away(I'm still salty about Priscilla).

Scorpionex1 votes

Jayce has been balanced for the longest time until they overbuffed his ult...also yomus an item that is abused by multiple champs is ridiculua right now

HazyCloud71 votes

Nobody was complaining about Jayce when he had to build tear. Becomes flavor of the month and suddenly he's Azir/Kalista 2.0 who's too good at everything and everybody clamors for him to be gutted.

Doubt any of the people criticizing him were playing him during the tank meta when he was practically a troll pick.

ADepressedLeona1 votes

I've always said they need to stay away from "6" ability champions, because it's like giving them rocket launchers when everyone else is running around with swords.

Whenever I see one of those champions "outplay" the enemy, I always just frown because the enemy didn't get out played, the just got out kitted lol.

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