How does a champion "fall off" lategame? ect.

AMADEUSdotEXE·Feb 22, 2016·2 votes·2,377 views

This became a question of interest due to a post that i had made previously regarding Lucian and his popularity. I was told that he "falls off" lategame. I've grown to somewhat understand how a champion "scales well into late game" such as Nasus and his Q. However, when i see Fiora on Pickban stated to be "strongest at lategame" i become a little confused on what that means. Is it just because she's tankier and does more damage (to put it simply)? I was told told that Lucian is a common pick in my division because his early game is good right now, but he pys for that when he falls off late game... what does that mean? I've had 50 minute games against Lucian as a rival marksmen and his damage wasn't terrible or even bad lategame. Is he just not as good as Vayne or Tristana later on or something?

17 Comments

TehNACHOFeb 22, 20164 votes

This is most commonly noted between finite interactions, specifically Burst, Tankiness, and DPS in that order.

If you directly compare a Burst Champion to the EHP of a Tank or Juggernaut Fighter, the Burst champion usually can not kill the Tank or Juggernaut, especially within a single rotation. Early game, maybe if you have an early leverage, you can beat a Tank as a Burst champion simply by hitting them hard enough. Eventually though, the Tankiness of your target is going to be waaaaaay too much for you to realistically take down easily.

Similarly, Tanks can easily outlast a DPS champion in the early to midgame. Tank stats are cheap and easy to build up by the midgame, and at this stage of the game, most late game hyper carries aren't at their true powerspikes yet. However, as time passes, the mostly additive bonuses of defense falls behind to the mostly exponential bonuses of DPS.

Lucian falls off relative to other ADCs because he does not shred tanks well late game. If you pit a late game Lucian vs a late game Tristana or Vayne, maybe you can duel them if you play well enough. However, if you are comparing a late game Vayne or Tristana to Lucian when it comes to fighting a Tank, you'll find that the Hypercarries are going to melt through that tank way easier than Lucian possibly could once he burns through his initial rotation. He sacrifices a lot of raw DPS for Burst-like qualities, including some of Burst's weakness to killing Tanks. This is why Lucian falls off.

Remember, there are 9 other players in the game. Nothing is absolute, everything is relative. Lucian doesn't literally lose damage as the game goes on, it's just that his opposition over time gathers resistance to his particular strengths, or anything you can compare him to starts to lap circles around him in certain jobs.

Hayaishi2Feb 22, 20162 votes

It's relative.

WalkingInACircleFeb 22, 20162 votes

Single target < AoE in teamfights

Itemization doesn't support offense and defense well (this was more of a thing for bruisers previously, Sterak's and Titanic changed this)

Vulnerability to kiting and stuff, awkwardness in a team fight.

Lucian's short range makes it difficult for him to do damage in a teamfight safely. He's not the worst but he's no hypercarry. Also, yeah, Vayne outdamages him later on. Trist has range.

HEAljvLykdFeb 22, 20162 votes

Tank gragas does a lot of damage early/mid game and can go 10/0. If late game comes around he'll be less and less of a damage source and be more of a cc source. Falls off late game.

Nanuk PihoqahiakFeb 22, 20162 votes

It depends on the champion.

A character like Renekton relies on a lot of base damage and mobility to secure his early game advantage. If he keeps building damage, he can't engage a fight without taking a lot of damage initially or even outright dying. Unless of course he's so vastly ahead he can do whatever he wants, but that applies to any character that's fed. In this case, he has to build tanky to stay relevant and his scaling won't support him going all in throughout the remainder of the game.

Your example of Lucian: He does great damage lategame, but relative to someone like Kog'maw he pales in comparison. This combined with him having to get a lot closer than other ADCs means that he's got a higher risk of not putting out as much damage due to having to weave in and out of a fight. That's customary for all ADCs, but he doesn't have the range of the higher end carries and it's slightly more prevalent with him because of it.

Lee Sin is my final example. He has great scaling and potential for damage. However, like Renekton, if he doesn't build tanky, he can't actually stay in a teamfight long enough to do much without being blown up. All it'd take is a support stunning or rooting him after he's built 2-4 damage items and he's dead.

PhantomGGFeb 22, 20162 votes

I will try to explain this simple

Late game certain factors greatly matter

-Team fight ability -Siege ability -Tanking/Survival ability -Ability to shred tanks -Dps

The first two being the most important on this list. If a champion is average or sub par in this aspects we say they fall off late game.

Famous example off "falling off late game"

-Lee Sin

Lee Sin falls off late game because

-If he builds full Damage, sure his early game will be very strong, but late game he lacks the ability to kill tanks, and adcs who have better stats will one shot him. He will also be unable to turret dive for he is so squishy.

-If he builds full tank or bruiser, He will have absolutely no damage and will not even be able to kill a squishy, he becomes a kick bot that relies completely on his ultimate

-His siegeing ability is completely dependent on how good the Lee Sin is, if it is a super good lee sin he can do some cool insect combo to start a team fight in a tower dive, however even good lee sins fail this, and even if u pull it off, their is no guarentee it is going to work. So your most game changing combo will not even guarantee you getting what you want. To put it simpe his siege is mediocore, it is not good it is not great.

Many champions who resemble lee sin will fall of late game for the same reasons.

Cloud273Feb 22, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I will try to explain this simple

Late game certain factors greatly matter

-Team fight ability -Siege ability -Tanking/Survival ability -Ability to shred tanks -Dps

The first two being the most important on this list. If a champion is average or sub par in this aspects we say they fall off late game.

Famous example off "falling off late game"

-Lee Sin

Lee Sin falls off late game because

-If he builds full Damage, sure his early game will be very strong, but late game he lacks the ability to kill tanks, and adcs who have better stats will one shot him. He will also be unable to turret dive for he is so squishy.

-If he builds full tank or bruiser, He will have absolutely no damage and will not even be able to kill a squishy, he becomes a kick bot that relies completely on his ultimate

-His siegeing ability is completely dependent on how good the Lee Sin is, if it is a super good lee sin he can do some cool insect combo to start a team fight in a tower dive, however even good lee sins fail this, and even if u pull it off, their is no guarentee it is going to work. So your most game changing combo will not even guarantee you getting what you want. To put it simpe his siege is mediocore, it is not good it is not great.

Many champions who resemble lee sin will fall of late game for the same reasons.

Assassins never fall off, because stealth and repositioning abilities never fall off. DPS is literally the only thing they don't have (except Master Yi).

PhantomGGFeb 22, 20161 votes

my brain it cries

CasriFeb 22, 20162 votes

A champion having strong scalings does not always mean that they scale well into the late-game.

Although Leblanc has insane AP scalings (80%/60%/100%/120%), her job becomes harder the longer games last. When games last long enough for her opponents to invest in MR, health and lifesaving/combo ruining items item 3139 item 3222 item 3156 item 3190 item 3102 item 3026 she will naturally struggle.

When people begin to group and are more cognizant of their team/peeling for their carries (i.e. in the lategame), any champion who is looking to capitalize on individual mistakes/vulnerabilities will tend to struggle.

Again, using LB is an example (although these points apply to most assassins), she lacks the strong, consistent waveclear of mages- it's harder for her to repel waves/pressure turrets; her sustained dps is poor compared to many mid laners- she can't assist baron/dragon rushes very well. Her AoE damage is hard to pull off safely and effectively without interruption or just dying to enemy AoE in a lategame teamfight. Although she deals insane burst, her damage is reliant on her getting in peoples' faces, even if only briefly- this is often suicidal late-game.

AMADEUSdotEXEFeb 23, 20162 votes

{quoted}

A champion having strong scalings does not always mean that they scale well into the late-game.

Although has insane AP scalings (80%/60%/100%/120%), her job becomes harder the longer games last. When games last long enough for her opponents to invest in MR, health and lifesaving/combo ruining items she will naturally struggle.

When people begin to group and are more cognizant of their team/peeling for their carries (i.e. in the lategame), any champion who is looking to capitalize on individual mistakes/vulnerabilities will tend to struggle.

Again, using LB is an example (although these points apply to most assassins), she lacks the strong, consistent waveclear of mages- it's harder for her to repel waves/pressure turrets; her sustained dps is poor compared to many mid laners- she can't assist baron/dragon rushes very well. Her AoE damage is hard to pull off safely and effectively without interruption or just dying to enemy AoE in a lategame teamfight. Although she deals insane burst, her damage is reliant on her getting in peoples' faces, even if only briefly- this is often suicidal late-game.

She was actually one of the other champions that i was also curious about. Never really understood that one until now. Thanks

Titanium70Feb 22, 20162 votes

Well, first of all: Basicly every FarmingRole falls of Lategame. Because the advantage they gain from farm/kill advantage becomes less effective and less fed roles get stronger. (usually Supp, Jgl) You only only have 6 slots and once they are filled prepare to have less and less impact. (For example that's why Campions like Veigar tend to fall of, because despite infinite AP at some point the opponents will get Banshees, GAs, Solari)

However there are some Champions Kits which are alot weaker in Lategame by default. Those Kits usually are strong duelists. LeeSin Pantheon Zed Leblanc Lucian . Those guys shine in small skrimishes, but put them into a 5v5 and they will struggle. And Lategame is Teamfighting!

Additionally there are also Champs (Hypercarries) that do not/slightly fall of - they'll keep their advantage on others. Those Champs usually have steroids or True/%-DMG which always hurts. Prime examples: Azir Vayne Jax Full Build Azir has so much DPS, he doent care about MR at all, Vayne... well it's Vayne. And Jax despite being a monster in duels, his massive steriods allow him to be strong in teamfights as well.

ZT XperimentorFeb 22, 20161 votes

Well the early VS late game mechanics have basically become null, since riot made the game snowball harder than an avalanche.

MunchCrunchLunchFeb 22, 20161 votes

every single ad caster. and champions with bad ratio scalings.

AMADEUSdotEXEFeb 23, 20161 votes

{quoted}

every single ad caster. and champions with bad ratio scalings.

Riven too o.O?

QuephaFeb 23, 20161 votes

Some of it has to do with the scaling on their abilities. Auto attacks scale with several different stats (AD, AS, crit, bonus crit damage) so as champions build for their auto attacks and get more items, each item makes each other item more effective. Fiora has %health true damage which will end up dealing more damage as the opponent has more health and any armor will have no effect against it.

Some of it also has to do with what the champion is capable of. Someone like Teemo can deal a lot of damage with his auto attacks, but his range is very short and he's pretty squishy, so when teams start grouping up for team fights he pretty much has to let his team fight a 4v5 since him going into a fight will probably end up with him either getting killed or zoned away from dealing damage.

SwiftKitten88Feb 23, 20161 votes

what it means that all full build when everyone has what they want the champion is MUCH weaker when compared other champs at their full build.

take Nidalee for example... VERY strong mid game. but neigh on worthless late game

Earl EulrichFeb 23, 20161 votes

Mostly it´s because the game shifts from laning/skirmishing to objectives/5v5 teamfighting in the lategame - which makes it much harder to execute the strngeths of certain champs later on in the game. Lee Sinn e.g. has insane scaling and mobility, but it´s still very difficult for him to get of that game-winning kick later on in the game in a 5v5, while early on you just jump at any champ in range and force him away/kill him - thus he falls off, even if he still can have the ability to win the game with one kick later on. For Lucian it´s pretty similar...his dmg vs squishier targets is ridiculous with full gear, but he needs to get a good flank on the opponent backline - which he rarly gets lategame (a good example of a lategame lucian that gets everything he wants is the Fox vs TL game last saturday, but it´ßs just rare he get´s the fight he wants - most of the time he either gets killed by an adc that outranges him or he´ll get cc´d and dies).