PSA: If you literally have 0 games as a champion...

Mira Arya Enthe·Aug 23, 2016·4 votes·486 views

Or relatively low enough. Please do not comment on how the champion should be redesigned. Saw somebody making all these huge suggestions about Shyvana changes. Look in his match history(which goes back to 2014), searched under 'Shyvana'. No games found...

If you are going to complain about a champion, suggest a rework that could alter their identity in the game, or say a mechanic they have doesn't make sense. Try PLAYING them, at least 10 games or so before you make huge sweeping statements on how they should be balanced.

I don't even do that to Zed players, and I hate Zed. But I never played him, so I don't suggest how he should be reworked.

24 Comments

EndlessSorcererAug 23, 20163 votes

Keep in mind that match history only shows ranked games if you aren't a friend.

They could have played the champion in a significant amount of normal games and it wouldn't show up for you.

Mira Arya EntheAug 23, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Keep in mind that match history only shows ranked games if you aren't a friend.

They could have played the champion in a significant amount of normal games and it wouldn't show up for you.

The guy literally said "I haven't played her since 2014." When I brought up the match history.

ParoeAug 23, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2nvwKXdn,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-08-23T17:56:01.072+0000)

The guy literally said "I haven't played her since 2014." When I brought up the match history.

You litterally made an entire thread to whine about my suggested shyvana changes. Shes not a champion who can be buffed without breaking her. she needs an actual rework or she needs new item paths.

You what we call people like you in my area? Social justice warriors. People who think that no one but the directly and passionately involved can have any sort of input or opinion, and will argue for the sake of arguing without putting forth your own ideas.

Mira Arya EntheAug 23, 20161 votes

{quoted}

You litterally made an entire thread to whine about my suggested shyvana changes. Shes not a champion who can be buffed without breaking her. she needs an actual rework or she needs new item paths.

You what we call people like you in my area? Social justice warriors. People who think that no one but the directly and passionately involved can have any sort of input or opinion, and will argue for the sake of arguing without putting forth your own ideas.

http://champion.gg/champion/Shyvana Shyvana has a nearly positive win rate. And they are buffing her without breaking her, they will be buffing her base HP when they hit that patch. Her problem always has been, and always will be(until they fix it) her lack of CC. Any experienced Shyvana player will tell you this, any guide will tell you this, any pro player will tell you this. Look it up. Stop bringing side arguments and politics into this. It is as simple as that.

"Shyvana lacks crowd control for effective ganking" Is always in her 'cons'

"Shyvana's hybrid damage gives her a strong space in dueling and team fighting" always in her 'pros'

Not every champion needs to be Garen or Darius. There are plenty of Udyr, Jax and Kayle's out there who do hybrid damage.

SlythionAug 23, 20161 votes

You are so...entitled

It's as though you think that no one is allowed to have an opinion on anything without being 100% invested in it, and you even go so far as to make me think you're offended that someone would dare disagree with you xD

I don't necessarily agree with removing her hybrid damage, but it could help with her clunky build paths and it could open up room for necessary changes to her kit. You keep using her winrate as a shield of your argument, but winrate isn't everything

SlythionAug 23, 20161 votes

You're lying, he said he played her a decent amount during Devourer as well

edit: go ahead and downvote me for exposing your truth-stretching when the real truth doesn't meet your needs :^)

Maximum MordeAug 23, 20162 votes

What if I played the champion once on nemesis draft. That counts right?

Mira Arya EntheAug 23, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maximum Morde,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2nvwKXdn,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-08-23T17:42:38.310+0000)

What if I played the champion once on nemesis draft. That counts right?

Funny joke, but the post already says "Or relatively low enough."

ParoeAug 23, 20162 votes

And what if they played years ago, and havent played recently because its just not fun in the current meta?

Not everyone is a one trick, and not everyone enjoys playing the same thing over and over and over again.

Mira Arya EntheAug 23, 20161 votes

{quoted}

And what if they played years ago, and havent played recently because its just not fun in the current meta?

Not everyone is a one trick, and not everyone enjoys playing the same thing over and over and over again.

Then they have no idea about the champion's current place in the game. Kassadin years ago is not the same Kassadin of today.

And just because you don't have fun on a champion doesn't mean they aren't fun. I have 0 fun on Yasou and Lucian but tons of fun on Shyvana and Riven.

DunkinNoobsAug 23, 20162 votes

But then how would we get to see all of those amazing Yasuo rework ideas? Make his dashes cost flow? Remove his shield with no compensation? Make his windwall break after 3 projectiles? All absolutely fantastic ideas!

ParoeAug 23, 20161 votes

{quoted}

But then how would we get to see all of those amazing Yasuo rework ideas? Make his dashes cost flow? Remove his shield with no compensation? Make his windwall break after 3 projectiles? All absolutely fantastic ideas!

To be fair... yasuos wind wall IS what makes him obscenely powerful. Slowing down projectiles would be a cool, niche thing to change it to.

DunkinNoobsAug 23, 20162 votes

It would remove most of the usefulness of the ability since most Yasuo's use their windwall to block disengage abilities from their opponents: Lux Q, Ahri E, Varus ult, Vayne E, etc.

Mira Arya EntheAug 23, 20161 votes

{quoted}

But then how would we get to see all of those amazing Yasuo rework ideas? Make his dashes cost flow? Remove his shield with no compensation? Make his windwall break after 3 projectiles? All absolutely fantastic ideas!

Exactly. I hate Yasuo. But I haven't played him other than on release. I don't know what would be healthy for his gameplay.

SlythionAug 23, 20161 votes

I saw the post you are referring about and honestly, you are being a complete jerk. You dismissed everything they proposed because you simply disagreed with their design. Just because you've never played a champion (or haven't much) doesn't mean you can't understand or have an opinion on them. Saying that they are wrong and you are right simply because you've played the champion before is the same as...say, "I'm gold and you're silver so you're obviously wrong".

The dude simply wanted Shyvana's hybrid damage to be taken away because they thought it could open up more avenues for buffs and balance in the future. Now, neither of us actually agree with their opinion but I'm not gonna act so superior as to dismiss everything simply because I don't agree with them and even go as far as to make a stupid post about it because I'm offended that they had the nerve to suggest changes to a champion that they've probably seen in hundreds of games.

It's one thing to blindly rage about an OP champion when you clearly don't understand how they work, it's a completely different (and acceptable) thing to suggest changes that they believe could improve the game and help a champion. Don't go knocking down ideas and discouraging player simply because "I've played this champion so I obviously know everything related to them better than you ever could"

Mira Arya EntheAug 23, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I saw the post you are referring about and honestly, you are being a complete jerk. You dismissed everything they proposed because you simply disagreed with their design. Just because you've never played a champion (or haven't much) doesn't mean you can't understand or have an opinion on them. Saying that they are wrong and you are right simply because you've played the champion before is the same as...say, "I'm gold and you're silver so you're obviously wrong".

The dude simply wanted Shyvana's hybrid damage to be taken away because they thought it could open up more avenues for buffs and balance in the future. Now, neither of us actually agree with their opinion but I'm not gonna act so superior as to dismiss everything simply because I don't agree with them and even go as far as to make a stupid post about it because I'm offended that they had the nerve to suggest changes to a champion that they've probably seen in hundreds of games.

It's one thing to blindly rage about an OP champion when you clearly don't understand how they work, it's a completely different (and acceptable) thing to suggest changes that they believe could improve the game and help a champion. Don't go knocking down ideas and discouraging player simply because re"I've played this champion so I obviously know everything related to them better than you ever could"

I did read his post. It showed an utter lack of understanding the champion, then looked at his match history and saw he didn't have games as Shyvana. His response was "He played her when she first came out"

My response being that playing a champion long ago. Even in preseason. Has nothing to do with them currently. At all.

There is nothing rude about that. His concept lacked a grasp of the character's design and purpose. Or current role in the game. His lack of games on her showed the reason.

If a physicist sees a dumb argument about gravity from a person lacking experience in the field, it behooves him to point out lack of experience. Now I am by no means good at League. But I understand Shyvana. As do all the high ranked players who say the same thing.

Her hybrid damage is an asset and part of her core.

Her lack of CC is the problem with her.

But she is mostly fine. And only the lack of CC breaks that.

SlythionAug 23, 20162 votes

you keep changing what they said in terms of when they played her last

first it was "I haven't played her since 2014"

then it was "I played her when she first came out" (2011-ish I believe)

but in reality he said he played her during Devourer as well...

You are acting as though their argument for Shyvana would completely ruin her and make her unplayable, but in reality it would open up new (and smoother) build paths and allow for easier numbers balancing. Personally, I like the hybrid as part of her kit. I like the asset it brings to teams and I like the great duel potential it gives her, but to act as though she'd be useless without it and that hybrid damage on Shyvana is the only option to with her and that taking her any other direction would trash her is stupid.

Sure, you may not want her hybrid damage to be taken away because you disagree with that from a gameplay perspective. But for the love of god stop acting like she'd be as useless as a Magikarp without it. There are several paths to change shyvana, nearly all of them viable from a balance standpoint.

Stop taking your preference on her specific gameplay type and making it law, players are allowed to suggest different things for champions and should be able to do so without players like you being so salty because someone dared to suggest changing you're beloved champion in a way you don't see fit

ParoeAug 23, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2nvwKXdn,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2016-08-23T18:50:15.178+0000)

I did read his post. It showed an utter lack of understanding the champion, then looked at his match history and saw he didn't have games as Shyvana. His response was "He played her when she first came out"

My response being that playing a champion long ago. Even in preseason. Has nothing to do with them currently. At all.

There is nothing rude about that. His concept lacked a grasp of the character's design and purpose. Or current role in the game. His lack of games on her showed the reason.

If a physicist sees a dumb argument about gravity from a person lacking experience in the field, it behooves him to point out lack of experience. Now I am by no means good at League. But I understand Shyvana. As do all the high ranked players who say the same thing.

Her hybrid damage is an asset and part of her core.

Her lack of CC is the problem with her.

But she is mostly fine. And only the lack of CC breaks that.

Sir. If a teacher sees an opinion that is misguided, they attempt to guide the person with the opinion. A wise man brings equals to his cause, a fool belittles those beneath him.

Your entire argument, boiled down, is one word. "No". No counter argument, no ideas to bounce back and forth, no reasoning as to why the other idea wouldnt work, just "no". My idea is to give shyvana better potential builds. Making her W mixed damage would do that, even as a sole change it would open up her build paths and give her more versatility than what she currently has. What you dont seem to realize is your idea, a slow of any kind, will be cancerous because slows are much more potent than movement speed buffs. Your reasoning for why such a change isnt a very good idea is because "no". Any ideas you yourself havent come up with is "no". You can continue to harangue and throw dirt, you really can, but in the end your idea is just as bad as mine and doesnt alleviate any of the larger problems and will only aggregate more problems.

Mira Arya EntheAug 23, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Sir. If a teacher sees an opinion that is misguided, they attempt to guide the person with the opinion. A wise man brings equals to his cause, a fool belittles those beneath him.

Your entire argument, boiled down, is one word. "No". No counter argument, no ideas to bounce back and forth, no reasoning as to why the other idea wouldnt work, just "no". My idea is to give shyvana better potential builds. Making her W mixed damage would do that, even as a sole change it would open up her build paths and give her more versatility than what she currently has. What you dont seem to realize is your idea, a slow of any kind, will be cancerous because slows are much more potent than movement speed buffs. Your reasoning for why such a change isnt a very good idea is because "no". Any ideas you yourself havent come up with is "no". You can continue to harangue and throw dirt, you really can, but in the end your idea is just as bad as mine and doesnt alleviate any of the larger problems and will only aggregate more problems.

Actually I did make counterarguements and suggestions.

Counter arguments: Hybrid damage is core to her gameplay but by no means makes her broken or weak. It makes her strong because it's harder to build defense against her.

Changing it to physical opens up some items, runes and masteries while closing down others. It also adds nothing to fix her problem. Her lack of CC. Jax is not cancerous, he does hybrid damage and has CC. Same for Kayle, Udyr(one of the most solid champs in any meta) and Nasus.

Shyvana is average tier. Not good but not bad. Her problem is a lack of early game CC as she is a jungler with no way to gank. A slow on her E would fix this. She would likely be too strong a couple patches, then get some number adjustments to bring her in line.

On the other hand. Your idea is not a small buff, nerf or adjustment. It's a major rework and would make BC overpowered on her. As well as certain other items. She would require drastic adjustments in design to accommodate hate lack of hybrid damage and prevent her from being broken or worthless. And on top of that still would be the shittiest ganking jungler in the game.

Mira Arya EntheAug 23, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Sir. If a teacher sees an opinion that is misguided, they attempt to guide the person with the opinion. A wise man brings equals to his cause, a fool belittles those beneath him.

Your entire argument, boiled down, is one word. "No". No counter argument, no ideas to bounce back and forth, no reasoning as to why the other idea wouldnt work, just "no". My idea is to give shyvana better potential builds. Making her W mixed damage would do that, even as a sole change it would open up her build paths and give her more versatility than what she currently has. What you dont seem to realize is your idea, a slow of any kind, will be cancerous because slows are much more potent than movement speed buffs. Your reasoning for why such a change isnt a very good idea is because "no". Any ideas you yourself havent come up with is "no". You can continue to harangue and throw dirt, you really can, but in the end your idea is just as bad as mine and doesnt alleviate any of the larger problems and will only aggregate more problems.

There are plenty of basic attackers who deal magic damage. That is why we have Wit's end. Nashor's tooth. Gunblade. Rageblade. And hybrid pen runes.

But if you must know. Right now Shyvana has tons of build diversity.

Bad on her: Mana

Not optimal on her: AP Armor pen Critical strike

Good on her: Attack speed On hit Lifesteal Magic pen Magic resist HP Armor Any passive mitigation Any active mitigation Attack Damage Movement speed Passive slows Active slows Spell vamp Tenacity

All you are doing is adding Armor Pen.

While removing AP and Magic Pen.

Also making her use of armor pen cancerously OP. Especially Black Cleaver. Meaning she would need damage nerfs. Forcing her to be weak without that armor pen. And eventually building the same armor pen, lifesteal, tanking build every game. And in the process fixing nothing about her.

When at the moment she is a solid spot except the fact that she gets kited to hell. Which is solved late game by Merc Treads, Deadmans, Frozen Mallet, BotrK, Randuins or other chase items. But early game means she cannot gank. Which is why the number one suggestion for her is CC on her E.

Mixed damage doesn't need to be "Normalized" it is normal on many, many champions.

Counter argument. Happy? Didn't need to be said though. Anybody who understands the champion and item dynamics knows making even just her W physical would cause her to swing between broken and useless with black cleaver. Literally she'd go BC tank every game just to dragon into the enemies and use her immense AoE to delete their armor.

Mira Arya EntheAug 23, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I saw the post you are referring about and honestly, you are being a complete jerk. You dismissed everything they proposed because you simply disagreed with their design. Just because you've never played a champion (or haven't much) doesn't mean you can't understand or have an opinion on them. Saying that they are wrong and you are right simply because you've played the champion before is the same as...say, "I'm gold and you're silver so you're obviously wrong".

The dude simply wanted Shyvana's hybrid damage to be taken away because they thought it could open up more avenues for buffs and balance in the future. Now, neither of us actually agree with their opinion but I'm not gonna act so superior as to dismiss everything simply because I don't agree with them and even go as far as to make a stupid post about it because I'm offended that they had the nerve to suggest changes to a champion that they've probably seen in hundreds of games.

It's one thing to blindly rage about an OP champion when you clearly don't understand how they work, it's a completely different (and acceptable) thing to suggest changes that they believe could improve the game and help a champion. Don't go knocking down ideas and discouraging player simply because "I've played this champion so I obviously know everything related to them better than you ever could"

Also he didn't think any items supported hybrid damage champions. Which even I know we have runes, masteries, items and builds that support hybrid damage. And I am bronze. Thus another reason to point to lack of understanding as the reason for his post.

ParoeAug 23, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2nvwKXdn,comment-id=00030001,timestamp=2016-08-23T18:59:23.306+0000)

Also he didn't think any items supported hybrid damage champions. Which even I know we have runes, masteries, items and builds that support hybrid damage. And I am bronze. Thus another reason to point to lack of understanding as the reason for his post.

Hybrid isnt supported. Riot has said hybrid isnt supported. Hybrid is now synonymous with 'on hit', which also isnt what hybrid champions were originally meant to do, and shouldnt do. A hybrid playstyle should not be based around on hit stacking, or else you could even call kog maw and xin zhao hybrid.

{quoted}

It would remove most of the usefulness of the ability since most Yasuo's use their windwall to block disengage abilities from their opponents: Lux Q, Ahri E, Varus ult, Vayne E, etc.

No? Its used to eat any and all projectiles. By slowing down the missile speed it becomes less frustrating to have used against you, and still has counterplay. Youd have to be a good yasuo to last-second skillshots. None of this "it was less than one teemo but windwall!" stuff; youd actually have to pay attention.

Mira Arya EntheAug 23, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Hybrid isnt supported. Riot has said hybrid isnt supported. Hybrid is now synonymous with 'on hit', which also isnt what hybrid champions were originally meant to do, and shouldnt do. A hybrid playstyle should not be based around on hit stacking, or else you could even call kog maw and xin zhao hybrid.

No? Its used to eat any and all projectiles. By slowing down the missile speed it becomes less frustrating to have used against you, and still has counterplay. Youd have to be a good yasuo to last-second skillshots. None of this "it was less than one teemo but windwall!" stuff; youd actually have to pay attention.

Hybrid damage isn't supported? Udyr, Corki, Kogmaw, Kayle, Jax, Nasus and many others say hello.

Also that thing called Gunblade and Rageblade beg to differ.

DunkinNoobsAug 23, 20161 votes

Half the reason windwall is used is to block abilities at point blank range so Yasuo can continue attacking his target. Your change would remove that capability and make Yasuo basically unplayable against those kinds of champions.