Black Cleaver is too cheap for its passive and the passive isn't satisfying; let's make it more fun!

Dingding123··1 votes·742 views

Don't get me wrong - this puppy is powerful. Powerful enough to be bought as the only offensive item in a build all the way up to the LCS.

But, simply put, that's the problem. It's a very boring item! You build it on tanky physical dps or on particular marksmen. That's it and that's all. Let's make it cooler!

It's too similar of a stat-stick when compared to Mortal Reminder, except rather than be tailored as an anti-item it's just a stat-stick for tanks. There isn't an inherent difference between the two except that BC makes it easier for marksman to kill a target regardless of whether they have a lot of sustain.

If BC were priced at 3300 or 3350 - and of course buffed to compensate - it would become both a more invested and threatening of a pickup, rather than just being a "my abilities deal physical damage, I should buy this" item like it currently is. The current BC requires 6 physical attacks in order to shred 24% armor. That isn't all that exciting - I propose that it take 5 attacks to shred 25%! Faster, more powerful armor reduction like that would make BC much more threatening and exciting, and a mechanic that would actually be worth playing around. Also, for the sake of making it more of an investment it should give a little more AD than it currently does; +5 AD (LUL) might not be egregious. Finally, adding a Longsword to the build path would make it more comfortable to build into while compensating for the higher price and giving reason for the finished item's 45 AD.

Don't get me wrong x2 - this wouldn't stop Urgot or any other beefy AD's from buying it. Rather it would make their playstyle more interesting and entertaining when he finishes the item, as in he and his ilk would become an incredible threat. Also it would offer some agency, as there would be a bigger window upon buying this item that leaves the champion fairly squishy, which would be the reason NOT to buy (or at least rush) the new BC. It might find a place in early AD assassins' builds as well, especially when on a team with multiple marksmen/assassins.

TL;DR: Make item 3071 cost more, give faster stacking pen, increase AD a bit, add a Longsword to the build path.

13 Comments

ZephyrDrake3 votes

how is it just making it stronger with no actual change to anything make it "not boring"? all you did was to made it shred armor even faster and give it a bit more AD while making it more expensive... it still does the exact same thing, nothing about it is more "exciting" or "different" it just the same but ever so slightly better. Also the item is designed for Juggernauts champions, and Juggernauts for the most part are designed to only have ONE offensive item on their build, maybe 2 if you really are snowballing or just want a more offensive oriented build.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

this wouldn't stop Urgot or any other beefy AD's from buying it.

this item is literally designed for those champions. like when the first iteration of this cleaver was released and talked about in season 3, there were literally garens and darius faces underneath the icon.

when the juggers were reworked, like the increased number of spins on garens e, and they turned darius passive into physical damage, they did it because of cleaver with the intention to increase their kit synergies with the item.

i agree that it needs buffs, when even garen and darius prefer triforce over cleaver at this point.

but can you not make it sound like its a problem that juggers are building it? its supposed to be a core item for them. infact its more of an abuse case when marksmen, and to a degree assassins and skirmishers are using the thing to better effect than the champions it was intended for.

Garen Darius Illaoi Renekton Aatrox Urgot

champions like those are the target group for cleaver to exist in this game.

MrFawknSunshine1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2fBGdaQl,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-09-15T23:17:39.642+0000)

this item is literally designed for those champions. like when the first iteration of this cleaver was released and talked about in season 3, there were literally garens and darius faces underneath the icon.

i agree that it needs buffs, when even garen and darius prefer triforce over cleaver at this point.

but can you not make it sound like its a problem that juggers are building it? its supposed to be a core item for them.

i think cuz of having armor pen/shred in their kits they can opt for triforce for more stats/burst they dont have to rely on black clever unless facing alot of armor stack match ups/teams.

cuz with tri they also get bonus MS plus the phage passive. lose some ad but get burst with sheen proc and more attack speed which can help with last hitting or for darius to stack passive easier.

but then again i think they need to change triforce. and if they do then i can see changes to black clever

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

cuz

bro. please.

i mean i get your point. the addition of the armor shred to garens e lowered his kit synergy with the item, since it stacks poorly.

but the nerf to its passive a while back kindof put the final nail in the coffin for cleaver builds on him and darius. if you remember, darius always had the armor pen on his e and still bought cleaver. the switch to triforce which was situational before, really came with the passive nerf to cleaver.

it just feels like you cant fight anything but tanks with cleaver anymore. it just became an item you buy in place of triforce when youre behind.

maye they should add the 10 flat armor pen back in. these juggers also need to be able to fight squishy carries. not just tanks. which is the main reason they even get triforce at the moment. it allows them to beat adc and skirmishers in melee.

MrFawknSunshine1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2fBGdaQl,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2018-09-15T23:29:16.307+0000)

bro. please.

well triforce was always an option for darius. not so much for garen til he got armor shred on his E . kinda funny how that happen isnt it?

and if darius has a higher % win rate with triforce over black cleaver and garen has a higher % win rate with trifroce over black clever then isnt there some merit to what i said ?

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

well triforce was always an option for darius. not so much for garen til he got armor shred on his E . kinda funny how that happen isnt it?

and if darius has a higher % win rate with triforce over black cleaver and garen has a higher % win rate with trifroce over black clever then isnt there some merit to what i said ?

i think they balanced trigage from the wrong end.

we needed a change to sheen passives, not steraks.

especially since a change to sheen could mean we could get more items that scale off or increase base ad, which makes it easier to separate jugger items from diver, skirmisher and assassin itemization.

MrFawknSunshine1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2fBGdaQl,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-09-15T23:38:42.552+0000)

i think they balanced trigage from the wrong end.

we needed a change to sheen passives, not steraks.

especially since a change to sheen could mean we could get more items that scale off or increase base ad.

i dont disagree. i think that would of been the better way to address it. but the again by doing the way the did it, makes it where you cant compensate for weak base ad by getting steraks.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

i dont disagree. i think that would of been the better way to address it. but the again by doing the way the did it, makes it where you cant compensate for weak base ad by getting steraks.

but the only thing base ad increases were useful for was to empower sheens passive.

what other relevance does it have? most assassins, marksmen, and even fighters prefer high bonus ad over base ad, as only juggers are really geared towards total ad scalings (and not even all of them).

MrFawknSunshine1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2fBGdaQl,comment-id=0001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-09-15T23:44:07.593+0000)

but the only thing base ad increases were useful for was to empower sheens passive.

what other relevance does it have? most assassins, marksmen, and even fighters prefer high bonus ad over base ad, as only juggers are really geared towards total ad scalings.

right. you are 100% but as far as the sheen passive with the old steraks would increase base ad which increased the sheen bonus damage on proc. so some champs who had weaker base ads could compensate by staking tri with steraks.

( hell i know i miss it on my iceborn/sterak maokai )

MrFawknSunshine1 votes

it already cost 3000g its one of the higher cost finished items item 3078 is only 733g more. its the most expensive item in game.

Dingding1231 votes

So?

MrFawknSunshine2 votes

{quoted}

So?

so whats the point to add more damage to it and more cost to it?

Alzon1 votes

Cleaver’s cost is one of its selling points over Triforce. On the other hand, the time it takes Cleaver to come fully online in fights is one of the biggest reasons to choose Triforce instead. You want to close the gap between the unique identities of these two items a bit. While I can see that working slightly in the current oneshot-fest meta, it will only cause more problems when the overall damage in the game starts to go down again during preseason. Cleaver is fine as it is.

Plus, I fail to see how a few number tweaks will make Cleaver more “exciting.” When I think of how the item could be more exciting, I think of Cleave functioning like Noxian Might - while an enemy is at max stacks, all physical damage to other enemies instantly applies max stacks. While this would be ridiculously broken on Darius himself, as well as Illaoi, it would be rather interesting on just about everyone else, and certainly more “exciting.” But we’re not talking balance, anyway.

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