Unpopular Opinion: Cho'Gath should be able to do a ton of damage with his ult while being tanky

warpenguin555··93 votes·5,034 views

Not only is that but the Cho'Gath rework is the best mini rework Riot has put out.

It makes a ton of sense thematically. Cho'Gath is your stereotypical giant different dimension nightmare monster. What do most stereotypical giant different dimension nightmare monsters do? They eat people while being very hard to kill. In those movies the military gets called in only for the monster to shrug off the bullets, missles, bombs, etc, and continue eating people and destroying everything and everybody nearby. Only after a metric fuck ton of damage is done does the monster finally die. I feel like that being part of who Cho'Gath is justifies his ability to 1 shot or almost 1 shot almost any champion in the game with the stoneplate ult combo. That part of Cho'Gath is not the problem and anybody crying for nerfs that would make him no longer able fulfill his gameplay fantasy I needs to understand there is more to a game than how balanced all the characters are. Cho'Gath went from some random generic champion that failed their thematic in a game where most of the older champions also failed thematically (hi shyvana) or flat out don't have a gameplay fantasy at all (wtf is an armordillo?) to a champion that actually does a decent job of delivering on the whole giant monster character.

However, what doesn't make sense for the gameplay fantasy of Cho'Gath (or any tank for that matter) is being able to zoom into the enemy team with item 3800 and being able to stick to the enemy with ease. At no point when I think of giant monsters do I think of them being able to move quickly for any reason, nor do I think of them being able to ensure their prey is unable to escape. That kind of stuff is more suited for smaller monsters such as Kha'Zix. He has a Knockup then a slow on his Q, a Silence on his W, and a slow on his E. Giant monsters DO NOT DO THAT AT ALL. A better nerf idea would be to remove the slow on his E and/or nerf/remove the slow after his Q's knockup. Giant monsters don't fucking slow things or intentionally prevent food from escaping, they destroy and eat things because they're too fucking big to care.

And as for item 3800, this item should probably be removed. Cho'Gath isn't the only problematic user of his item. Maokai is another great example. He's a fucking tree. Tree's should not be moving like that. Tanks and Juggernauts (I don't care if you they need buffs) shouldn't be moving at Sonic levels of speed. Tanks and Juggernaut are supposed to be bulky and slow in most cases, and this item removes that weakness. Why pick a diver when you can build this item on a tank and dive the backlines safer than a Vi or Hecarim?

tl;dr Cho'Gath's real problem is that he's sticky as fuck and item 3800 negates his defining weakness. His ability to munch on an enemy champion for a chunk of their health is core to what Cho'Gath was supposed to be when he was designed. He has that now and there is no reason good reason for him to lose it. Nerfs should instead be given to his CC and item 3800 glory should be removed from the game entirely.

159 Comments

Dani El Pezglobo47 votes

No sense i play a burst mage and u do more damage than me building tank when im build full damage glass canon.

Khristophoros13 votes

{quoted}

No sense i play a burst mage and u do more damage than me building tank when im build full damage glass canon.

a lot of mages can just CC him and kite him until RG runs out

Dani El Pezglobo36 votes

yeah cc him summoner 4 = dead.

Yeah kite him --> item 3800 --> ahahhahaha Chogath .

Tanks should reliable on him tankiness not in the fact if they put melee the kill u with one abilitie,

Khristophoros9 votes

{quoted}

yeah cc him summoner 4 = dead.

Yeah kite him --> item 3800 --> ahahhahaha Chogath .

Tanks should reliable on him tankiness not in the fact if they put melee the kill u with one abilitie,

if he flashes you flash too. flash is 0 sum unless you get outplayed.

a lot of mages have multiple CC skills they can easily hit while kiting, more easily than Cho can land his Q while chasing. they can easily keep him away even if he uses RG.

PhDs Nuts6 votes

{quoted}

if he flashes you flash too. flash is 0 sum unless you get outplayed.

a lot of mages have multiple CC skills they can easily hit while kiting, more easily than Cho can land his Q while chasing. they can easily keep him away even if he uses RG.

His ult damage is buffered. You can't flash out of the damage if he flashes first and clicks you.

Khristophoros6 votes

{quoted}

His ult damage is buffered. You can't flash out of the damage if he flashes first and clicks you.

If you let him get into flash range you got outplayed. If he gets desperate and flashes early you outplayed him, grats.

This is what bronze/silvers don't understand.

PhDs Nuts3 votes

{quoted}

If you let him get into flash range you got outplayed. If he gets desperate and flashes early you outplayed him, grats.

This is what bronze/silvers don't understand.

lol ok, oh mighty master of aram and blind pick. Maybe check ranks before trying to rank shame.

The Bad Touch2 votes

{quoted}

lol ok, oh mighty master of aram and blind pick. Maybe check ranks before trying to rank shame.

Except his best was plat 3... and yours was plat 5?

PhDs Nuts3 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Bad Touch,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2ROanEQj,comment-id=00010000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2017-10-29T20:55:59.261+0000)

Except his best was plat 3... and yours was plat 5?

If you're asking a question the answer is no.

The Bad Touch2 votes

{quoted}

If you're asking a question the answer is no.

I just found it was ironic that you were calling him out for elo because he doesn't play ranked anymore.... but you only checked match history not previous rank. Probably the guy just uses that account for norms now and plays his ranked on a seperate account.

His one ranked season was actually better than your best. :P

PhDs Nuts4 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Bad Touch,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2ROanEQj,comment-id=0001000000000000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-10-29T21:00:35.910+0000)

I just found it was ironic that you were calling him out for elo because he doesn't play ranked anymore.... but you only checked match history not previous rank. Probably the guy just uses that account for norms now and plays his ranked on a seperate account.

His one ranked season was actually better than your best. :P

I didn't call him out for elo. I called him out for elo shaming about Cho/Stoneplate when he hasn't played ranked in 3 years, which encompasses the entire time since Cho's rework and Stoneplate. He's only played aram and blind pick for the entirety of this interaction. His ranked season is equal to my current, and I was ranked higher earlier in the season. None of that even matters, because he specifically called out "bronze/silver".

Khristophoros2 votes

{quoted}

I didn't call him out for elo. I called him out for elo shaming about Cho/Stoneplate when he hasn't played ranked in 3 years, which encompasses the entire time since Cho's rework and Stoneplate. He's only played aram and blind pick for the entirety of this interaction. His ranked season is equal to my current, and I was ranked higher earlier in the season. None of that even matters, because he specifically called out "bronze/silver".

What's your point? Do you think I can't get to plat again? My normal mmr puts me against plats and diamonds regularly so why wouldn't I be able to?

z63XnLCMwX3 votes

{quoted}

His ult damage is buffered. You can't flash out of the damage if he flashes first and clicks you.

Maybe because I play Shaco a lot, but a flash ult for any champ is easy to predict, especially when you see a huge pixelated void monster charging at you. That's screaming for you to have your fingers on your own flash/escape key to leave the instant he flashes. If I can dodge annie's flash + ult stun combo, I'm sure everyone else can dodge a Cho's flash + ult combo.

NineTailedMystic8 votes

Cho can buffer his R you know. Target them with R and start walking at them, get within Flash range and Flash, Cho will R them immediately after the Flash no matter what as long as he Flashed into range.

Khristophoros4 votes

{quoted}

Cho can buffer his R you know. Target them with R and start walking at them, get within Flash range and Flash, Cho will R them immediately after the Flash no matter what as long as he Flashed into range.

i don't think anyone can consistently flash annie's flash R on pure reaction. You pretty much have to predict it.

Elipso Nite4 votes

Annie's ultimate is not instant or targeted. it has a cast animation and small channel time. chogath's also has a small animation and cast time but will still hit most targets through flash because of the target buffer. think of it like all of those times you flashed away from a melee auto attack but it still hits and kills you.

Junkο3 votes

What the fuck are you doing if Cho got within Flash range of you?

Done252 votes

{quoted}

What the fuck are you doing if Cho got within Flash range of you?

Bet they picked a team with 0 peel and/or front line.

Darkdemon65334 votes

{quoted}

It makes a ton of sense thematically

Lore, theme, and flavor are not justifications for a champion being OP.

KuroCaliber8 votes

Tell that to fucking fiora then. "She's the grand duelist" "she should be able to kill anyone"

Lit Corn2 votes

indeed , at this point AurelionSol could entirely destroy summoner's rift lol ...

Rexxiee21 votes

Gaining damage for building full tank is just terrible game design, no matter lore or whatever bullshit.

Remember on how much better the game was at s2/s3? And you know one of the best things about it? It was the fact that for you to do damage, you actually had to build some damage, tanks were very resilent but if they wanted to build dmg they would have to sacrifice the tankyness, nowdays theres shit like cho who builds 6 defensive items and then deal 1300+ true damage in 1 point and click spell.

It doesnt matter if you cant even hit a squishy with it, doing that much damage on a single point and click spell to any champion should just be forbidden, it breaks the basic intended boundaries of the game.

You know why bruisers are shit nowdays? Because tanks gain bruiser level of damage, and in some case assassin level of burst by building defensive items.

Paroe9 votes

{quoted}

Gaining damage for building full tank is just terrible game design, no matter lore or whatever bullshit.

Remember on how much better the game was at s2/s3? And you know one of the best things about it? It was the fact that for you to do damage, you actually had to build some damage, tanks were very resilent but if they wanted to build dmg they would have to sacrifice the tankyness, nowdays theres shit like cho who builds 6 defensive items and then deal 1300+ true damage in 1 point and click spell.

It doesnt matter if you cant even hit a squishy with it, doing that much damage on a single point and click spell to any champion should just be forbidden, it breaks the basic intended boundaries of the game.

You know why bruisers are shit nowdays? Because tanks gain bruiser level of damage, and in some case assassin level of burst by building defensive items.

THats melee range. Say it with me now "that is melee range".

125 range. Chos current E is a problem and has been since the day it was changed. It helps him run people down, but cho shouldnt be runningp eople down. He should be Qing them into a W and waiting for his chance to execute them.

Rexxiee6 votes

{quoted}

THats melee range. Say it with me now "that is melee range".

125 range. Chos current E is a problem and has been since the day it was changed. It helps him run people down, but cho shouldnt be runningp eople down. He should be Qing them into a W and waiting for his chance to execute them.

The melee range argument is moot when item 3800 exists and summoner 4 Exists.

Riven is also a full melee range champion yet she cannot build 6 defensive items and 1 shot someone with 1 spell, neither can any other champion in the game.

The Bad Touch6 votes

{quoted}

The melee range argument is moot when item 3800 exists and summoner 4 Exists.

Riven is also a full melee range champion yet she cannot build 6 defensive items and 1 shot someone with 1 spell, neither can any other champion in the game.

Something being unique is just terrible I know. All the fragile little snowflakes wants every champ to be the same.

Go play WoW.

ChompyWulf6 votes

It's not a matter of being same, it's a matter of unbalanced kits.

Cho is the only champ who can abuse the Stoneplate active and deal over 1000 damage with a single spell while mitigating a crapton of damage. His ultimate also allows him to stack up infinitely larger, more HP, and keep buffing his team fight power of E active.

Frankly, it's because of unbalanced trash like this that PvP in WoW was insufferable while Ghostcrawler was their lead designer.

PB4UAME1 votes

He's not. Any champion who deals true damage can take advantage of this effect.

As Olaf, if I'm just chasing someone through a team, damn right I'll pop GS to as I get in range, but I can still slow with Q, and do full damage with E during that time.

A better example is as Garen with a GS wading through the enemy team to execute the villain with an unmitigated true damage nuke, despite GS' active being in effect, and usually for a much larger true damage nuke than Cho is even capable of! Bonus points to W's insane synergy with GS and Q being a better gapcloser than anything Cho has.

The best example, which similar to Garen, is actually MUCH MORE TRUE DAMAGE THAN CHO EVEN CAN DO is playing Darius, then using GS after you've reached NM. From here, you still get all the extra AD from NM scaling into the damage on your ult, and you can ult up to 5 times, with no reduction on your damage, dealing up to 3,000 true damage base + 750% of your bonus AD (with NM active at 18, that's another 1500 true damage without a single item, rune or mastery point, giving his level 18 base damage on 5 ults at 4,500 true damage).

ChompyWulf2 votes

Olaf's E is nowhere near the level of Cho's ult in regards to use while buffed by Stoneplate. Maybe you can get three casts off while buffed, for a fair bit less damage and enemy counter play. Garen requires very specific conditions to put out more True damage than Cho while Stoneplate is active, most key is how low enemy HP % is, generally resulting in over inflated numbers if he executes someone at low HP while Cho can execute someone at higher HP without that person having to be the villain. Finally, you're comparing Darius casting ult 5 times total, each cast having lower true damage than a single Cho ult and no possible way to as you talk of, stack up the full Noxian passive AND get off five ult recasts while protected by Stoneplate active.

Try again. Or not.

z63XnLCMwX7 votes

{quoted}

The melee range argument is moot when item 3800 exists and summoner 4 Exists.

Riven is also a full melee range champion yet she cannot build 6 defensive items and 1 shot someone with 1 spell, neither can any other champion in the game.

The one spell argument is moot if the Target is allowed to have a six item build because Cho is allowed a 6 item defensive build. An ADC won't die from one spell because they have GA. A mage won't die because they have banshee.

MercuryCannons13 votes

[deleted]

Grab6 votes

{quoted}

Not unpopular, stupid. If you think one of the tankiest champs in the game should have the highest damage ultimate then you are actually brain dead.

I'm sure we have a champ with an even higher damage ult.

Edit: Wow. So much people lack game knowledge. Must be the OTPs. Fun fact, Nunu ult does more damage than Cho.

PhDs Nuts1 votes

{quoted}

I'm sure we have a champ with an even higher damage ult.

Higher pre-mitigation damage, but not as reliable effective damage on anyone that doesn't build full glass cannon.

Grab4 votes

{quoted}

Higher pre-mitigation damage, but not effective damage.

You under estimate how much damage nunu deals at full channel building Ap with Mr pen. 1.3k plus 2.5 Ap ratio in aoe. Cho can't compare to that. People really lack game knowledge if they think Cho has the highest ult damage in game.

PhDs Nuts4 votes

{quoted}

You under estimate how much damage nunu deals at full channel building Ap. 1.3k plus 2.5 Ap ratio in aoe. Cho can't compare to that

I know how much damage Nunu does. Nunu's ult damage is a meme at this point, everyone knows how much it can do. Nunu needs to build all AP and fully channel it. That's an even less likely condition than Cho being in range without using flash. I didn't say Cho has the highest damage ult. He has the most disproportionately strong ult for his role, and he actually gets to use it effectively a lot more often than Nunu.

There's a reason Cho was picked so often in worlds and Nunu wasn't.

PokladnicaZla5 votes

So,Nunu actually sacrifices durability if he builds AP, lacks CC (aside from slows) and his R can be interupted.

Grab3 votes

{quoted}

So,Nunu actually sacrifices durability if he builds AP, lacks CC (aside from slows) and his R can be interupted.

Doesn't change the fact that Cho gath does not have the highest damage ult in game.

PokladnicaZla1 votes

Rank 3 R has a base value of 650 true damage (+50% AP, +10% of bonus HP).

Pls tell me another champion who can deal point and click true damage without set up,a delay or channel?

Grab3 votes

{quoted}

Rank 3 R has a base value of 650 true damage (+50% AP, +10% of bonus HP).

Pls tell me another champion who can deal point and click true damage without set up,a delay or channel?

I don't really give a single fuck how easy it is to land. The argument was Cho has the highest ult damage in the game and he doesn't. The amount of people being delusional that Cho is a god is amazing.

PokladnicaZla2 votes

Against most of those ultimates you can at least build resistance and survive part of the damage.

People do go over the top with the damage his R deas,but it is apsurd since he builds tanky.

koshkyra2 votes

Do we have a champion who builds tanky with a higher damage ult than cho?

Grab3 votes

{quoted}

Do we have a champion who builds tanky with a higher damage ult than cho?

Nunu

koshkyra7 votes

If nunu built tanky, his ultimate is not doing anything close to Cho's.

Oh and nunu's is delayed and not point-and-click

Khristophoros11 votes

I agree about Cho but not RG. Tanks are supposed to initiate fights. Even with RG you still have some time to react as they run in. It's not like DotA where they can buy a Blink Dagger and instantly initiate from like 2000 range.

NineTailedMystic4 votes

Tanks don't oneshot carries.

Paroe1 votes

{quoted}

Tanks don't oneshot carries.

Ahri item 3027 item 3157 item 3102 item 3135item 3152 item 3047 "Tanks shouldnt oneshot!" Tank Ahri oneshots.

MrryZ8 votes

A) Thats not tank, hell that's barely even bruiser B) That isn't oneshotting anyone.

LadyRenly10 votes

Okay, but Cho gath is point and click true damage nuke. Assassins arent even allowed to insta burst 100-0, so why is it okay for Cho Gath?

Paroe5 votes

{quoted}

Okay, but Cho gath is point and click true damage nuke. Assassins arent even allowed to insta burst 100-0, so why is it okay for Cho Gath?

Because hes an immobile melee and a majority of his kit is close up. His Q is the only one thats ranged and has a high cost with a hefty cooldown.

Unlike, say, zed whose kit is mostly ranged and is highly mobile. Mobility+damage = bad Immobility+damage = okay

To counter a chocho, you need slows of some kind, the ability to stay out of his range, or the ability to disengage rapidly. All of which most champions can do nowadays. His only real threat is his flash ult... Which is a common thing amongst MOST champions.

flibitydoo3 votes

{quoted}

Because hes an immobile melee and a majority of his kit is close up. His Q is the only one thats ranged and has a high cost with a hefty cooldown.

there are ways to get around mobility as a weakness. (summoner 4 item 3800 item 1001 )

and "the majority of his kit being close up" is dumb argument since there are many champs that are melee range only and don't even have the 800 cast range option that cho'gath has.

why the fk would i ever play Trundle or Volibear or Nasus who can only touch things near them, require DPS to kill someone, have no real aoe teamfight cc, and if even if they do, a "tank" can just (near) oneshot them unconditionally because they due 1-2k true damage while building even tankier than I could ever hope to? The argument of "just kite him" only works if you play ranged champions. which is like half the roster. wow what a great solution,"I guess I just won't play half the champions in this game".

and the fact that he completely invalidates the existence of these champs, that nail sticking out of the wood, that's the definition of imbalance. that's a character stepping out of line in front of everyone else.

My Waifu Vanilla3 votes

I like how you say that yet Trundle and Nasus both dumpster Cho'Gath since Trundle just becomes an unkillable monster when he ults the 7k health Cho and Nasus gets free farm top lane against him since (despite popular opinion) Cho'gath's early game is beyond dogshit.

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