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So, should Morde's passive no longer work on minions?

Malicious Metal··37 votes·3,012 views

Shoutout to @Soul Furnace for bringing this up in my other thread.

Mordekaiser has always been really hard to balance mainly due to ONE big issue with his kit.

His passive; Iron Man. Not only is it awesome in team fights and dueling due to it giving you a substantial shield but it's VERY effective in lane due to him having a ton of victims to generate shield off, in form of YOUR minions, basically turning them against you if you dare to fight him.

His spells all being AoE make it easy for him to build up a massive shield on them and make any form of harass and trading useless against him if you're not ranged, then again every melee struggles against Ranged.

It's highly unintuitive and not very interaction and what's even worse; Really unhealthy and unfair due to his opponents not really being rewarded by choosing favorable fights and playing around it.

It's the reason he was kept in such an awful state ever since his release and maybe it's about time we'd remove this feature in favor of balancing him more outside of the laning phase and giving him actual windows of powers and ways to deal with him in lane.

So, I personally would be a fan of removing his minion draining in favor of other buffs that make him feel more like a juggernaut and not let him win by default just because you just happen to have a ton of minions.

What are your thoughts on the matter? Yay or nay?

http://s2.favim.com/orig/28/black-sabbath-gif-iron-man-ozzy-osbourne-paranoid-Favim.com-233856.gif

Edit; To clarify; I do not suggest SIMPLY removing the minion aspect without any form of buffs. The prime problem with balancing Morde is how oppressive his laning can feel like and how few ways there are to actually play against him in lane. If your champion doesn't counter Morde you're boned, it's unfair and very poor design.

Making him way less unhealthy opens up avenues in which he can be buffed, giving him some love and making feel like a real Juggernaut while eliminating most of the frustration when playing AGAINST him

59 Comments

Sona x Rubick14 votes

then what's the point of his spells costing HP?

It's been since 2010 that every league players (at least smart players) know that Morde has always had HP cost to balance th shield that he gets from hitting minions and countering pokes.

Malicious Metal7 votes

To be completely fair, most Morde players max W, he never really hurts himself all that much with the costs.

Besides, if his Passive no longer works on minions Riot might actually give him decent stats for a melee juggernaut. Like decent hp/5, base hp pool and maybe resistances.

It's been about seven years since his release and Riot has been getting rid of these kinds of uninteractive lanes, as seen in Vlad's rework so Morde might as well have his laning made more engaging and fair for both parties involved.

Sona x Rubick10 votes

you want an interactive laning phase?

give morde a reason to fight

cause now there aren't reasons to fight when you have trash base stats, and not that good all in compared to E poke.

grug2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2M66XQxb,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2016-10-29T14:39:55.202+0000)

To be completely fair, most Morde players max W, he never really hurts himself all that much with the costs.

Besides, if his Passive no longer works on minions Riot might actually give him decent stats for a melee juggernaut. Like decent hp/5, base hp pool and maybe resistances.

It's been about seven years since his release and Riot has been getting rid of these kinds of uninteractive lanes, as seen in Vlad's rework so Morde might as well have his laning made more engaging and fair for both parties involved.

yeah, this is true.

the only players i've ever seen max anything other than W are people in low silver to bronze not realising the harvester gives full heal on jungle camps l0l.

Dextix LT1 votes

I max his q.....

Q.Q

Malicious Metal1 votes

.... Why?

Dextix LT2 votes

I dont know sempai......

Damage?

I just never saw w as that usefull....

Q.Q

Selegun1 votes

Q does feel like you get more damage than W if maxed first. From there its a toss up for whats more useful in W or E.

Malicious Metal2 votes

His Q's damage doesn't scale that much with ranks but more with Morde's levels due to the ratio being TOTAL ad. W gives you an entire 590 damage when maxed. AoE

as well as a potential 380 heal.

It scales really well with level, giving a ton of wave clear, trading prowess and an actual way to survive ganks

YumaS2Astral1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2M66XQxb,comment-id=0003000000010000000000000001,timestamp=2016-10-29T19:35:19.094+0000)

His Q's damage doesn't scale that much with ranks but more with Morde's levels due to the ratio being TOTAL ad. W gives you an entire 590 damage when maxed. AoE

as well as a potential 380 heal.

It scales really well with level, giving a ton of wave clear, trading prowess and an actual way to survive ganks

Do you max Q second, or E?

I max W first, but I always max Q second for the damage. This means I am only going to max E last, but if I do that, E does no damage.

KoKoboto1 votes

E has become a utility spell for Mordekaiser, being his 'only range' ability and the ability that helps fill his shield the most

A Superb Villain3 votes

My knowledge of balance is passable at best so I typically refrain from providing extensive critique on League's many facets. That said, you always seem to have a solid grasp on League's mechanics and have yet to offer any suggestion that is of questionable quality, outside of your Mordekaiser bias, which conversely provides greater legitimacy to your proposals.

Though Riot has not always taken your suggestions into consideration, besides that whole "Lord of Death" debacle, I do hope they listen to you, for the sake of improving a champion that was previously mutilated by their hand.

specter4243 votes

the shield on the minions isnt even good anymore if it was removed u may as well just remove his health costs cuz his passive is too weak to justify killing himself casting.

Malicious Metal2 votes

It's still enough to shield him from almost any form of aggression. Besides, he's no longer that E bot who spams that 76 hp skill but maxes W that has a minor 25 hp cost and a potential 380+0.6 AP heal to it.

Everyone saying it isn't strong has never had the pleasure of playing a lot against or as Mordekaiser.

And I'm not suggesting ONLY removing the minion component but removing it actually opens up a ton of ways for other buffs to make Morde more interactive, less obnoxious in the laning phase and generally a more healthy champion overall

specter4244 votes

i'd rather have some melee champ be considered uninteractive as if that was even possible like darius and mordekaiser then lose 75% of my hp from kennen who i can't retaliate against

Malicious Metal6 votes

So Cancer to combat Cancer, huh?

Instead of really addressing the problem with ranged top laners there have to be certain champions that not only completely destroy everything melee but can fair somewhat well against ranged champions?

It's stupid because in the end you're still left with TWO unhealthy designs rather than one.

Kennen has to be tackled as a problem but keeping Morde really damn toxic is not exactly a good thing

Big Lincoln3 votes

why am I in the minority that would prefer mord be a battle mage :(

also yes this would probably be a huge balance change that would affect his laning being so obnoxious. You'd need to make him WAY better at shielding up vs champions though. If he had base stats that made him feel better to play, I'd probably pick him up again. (not because i like his kit, i just like the champion)

Malicious Metal4 votes

Well, because he's more of a Hybrid between Juggernaut and Battlemage.

He deals consistent AoE damage, deals primarily magic damage and has moderately high range form being melee, similar to a battle mage but he's highly immobile, lacks cc, mobility and generally has a lot of melee damage that's primarily a juggernaut trait.

Big Lincoln2 votes

I liked him better when he was just an up-front heavy hitter. His Q is the part I hate most (besides his W requiring an ally), it feels very not satisfying to land

i hope his Q gets reworked to feel better as a spell too.

ZT Xperimentor2 votes

Meanwhile nearly every marksmen heals from near death to full health in a couple auto-attacks, allowing them to tank more damage than most tanks. Mordekaiser I always thought was the deceptively dangerous one, being an immobile melee without crowd control, yet has durability & damage; however since his failure of a rework, he's had neither.

Malicious Metal2 votes

Completely relevant, right?

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Refresh

Malicious Metal2 votes

His durability would still be there, but it would require him to actually fight instead of just pressing W and E whenever they're off cool down and build up a huge shield off minions

ZT Xperimentor2 votes

But his stats are still worse than before the rework, so fighting isn't really a good option unless significantly ahead I find. For the record I max Q first so I can waveclear more reliably, and counter attack stronger if my opponent engages; the AP ratio on his heal doesn't seem noticeable without a deathcap even at higher ranks.

Malicious Metal2 votes

If you want more reliable wave clear you max E You get way more AoE and general more wave clear if you max that one first :P

His W's base heal is 190 for ONE unit, so you can easily just get 400 hp from a jungle camp or during a gank. It's by far the best choice of maxing because it scales so well with points.

And that's completely beside the point. If riot were to make him unable to generate shield from minions they would certainly buff his base line defense in from of stat buffs

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

That I know, but shoving the wave often leads to being ganked or falling behind on experience. I'm already overaggressive, sooooo yeah.

The heal is per unit hit? That explains a lot, I thought it was just the face value if it hit something even if it hit multiple.

I hope you mean buff to better than before his rework, instead of back to where he was.

Selegun2 votes

Wouldn't preventing him from building shield on minions weaken his late game to much? Without minions the shield would feel almost worthless since it would be that much harder to charge up. A better early game would be great but giving up the ability to generate a shield before a tower push late game would ruin his late game fantasy for me.

Malicious Metal2 votes

His shield always remains at 25% anyways.

They could change it so that it stops decaying at 50 or 70% late game so you can simply go grab a jungle camp and get your shield.

Selegun2 votes

That would be great to have the percent shield grow as the game went on.

I'm a tad worried about relying on jungle camps for a shield however. You cant always trust them to be there for you, especially if your on the losing end of a game. Minions on the other hand despite giving far less shield you can always count on finding a path directly to you.

CyberBalt2 votes

Could buffing shield generated to actual champions hit by it be used as compensation? Cause if not, I think that would make his passive a bit lackluster.

Anu3isII2 votes

If Iron Man wouldn't interact with minions, I think Riot would make it more powerful , like maybe give shield based on the damage dealt before resists or maybe make it scale with your max health on every ability , not just his E.

Malicious Metal3 votes

And that would be great.

It would make his actual fighting stronger while making his laning less obnoxious.

Subundu2 votes

I may be downvoted for this but malicious dude, i think this time you are overdoing it a little bit much.

I respect your attempts to give suggestions in order to make morde more healthy, but the cost must not be taking away parts of his soul again and again. We already seen it with his rework, it's time to stop it.

I'm not good in terms of numbers and balancement, so i will say this:

What me and, i believe, most morde mains like about him is his unique mechanics due to his passive, which force him to play around enemy units and around his positioning in lane. His shortcomings of cc and dashes, blinks, high defensive stats etc are due to the iron man and the possibility of "always shield never die", which makes morde himself and satisfying to play. We have to remember it.

This thing distinguishes morde mains from casual morde players. These ones can spam E and W in lane and still lose every trade because they can't position themselves properly, or simply don't know when to go in. The shield is good IF you can manage it, not in every occasion.

Plus, if these changes were actually made, morde would become a toplaner vs melee only champion, countered by every ranged or not exclusively melee champ, because he couldnt shield himself from any kind of damage. Goodbye mid morde or bot morde, he would lose his possibility to go to other lanes like a numero 1.

So riot came out with the "morde is a juggernaut" thing and "his passive and his old E are toxic and hard to balance", but we all know this isn't true and he is (and was) one of the most counterable champions in the game, nobody complained about him etc. I know riot have "chose this path" for him and i don't even ask for a revert, but let's keep calling him mordekaiser, there are way more toxic champions out there, let's help make him healthy without trashing his identity further.

I'm sorry for my gramatical and lexical mistakes, i'm italian, english is not my mothertongue.

edit Somebody can say "give him some kind of dash or cc" but let's be honest, can you see morde dashing? i can't...

Stars Shaper1 votes

Can agree with it since it keeps the passive the closer to what we all know and love.

Malicious Metal10 votes

Yeah, especially since it retains its effectiveness in the later stages of the game but only really impacts its toxic aspect; Namely its role in the laning phase.

Hige1 votes

O.o don't engage him amidst minions? he'd have to choose between hitting them or hitting you ._. really, I can't believe this is a problem for anyone at all

Malicious Metal1 votes

Easier said than done during laning phase when you're melee.

His W and E are both AoE so he can just hit you and at least your melee minions to get the shield.

Hell, I never have to chose between the two when I play Morde :P

Hige2 votes

Ok... look, I get that Morde is your main and that people isn't particularly brilliant when playing against you but basically that specific interaction is one of the most well designed ones, the counterplay IS there, is it non intuitive? yes, is it effective? also yes. Burden of knowledge used to be something Riot avoided but they have since realized that knowing the ins and out of the game is a good thing and it's exactly what sets good players apart.

W is probably his only reliable way of generating shield, while E depends on the enemy positioning, again, engaging amidst minions is simply a bad idea, just as moving away from them is a bad idea if you're facing a blitzcrank. You yourself must have faced someone who knows your weak points and exploited them, it isn't always that easy to cheese someone.

Melees have a hard time with pretty much every interaction, that's why their stats are higher than those of a ranged champion, if you happen to catch a Vayne amidst minions with your W and E, it would do so much more damage than what would happen if you caught, say a Darius.

grug1 votes

If they ever reworked morde and gave him a gapcloser, they should make it like kleds gap closer and call it 'Death Magnetic'

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Malicious Metal2 votes

Or a reverse gap closer, pulling the enemy closer.

The thought of a hulking suit of armor being fast or dashing is really damn weird.

grug1 votes

new ability: put mordes armour on enemy and enslave them alive or dead

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

EvilMerodach1 votes

I feel like he should retain something of the 'use your minions against you' part for thematic reasons. But probably something more interesting than 'hit them all and then you can't hit me back' kinda way. Maybe closer to Sion's E?

Like...mini-enslaved cannon minions that always agro nearby enemy champs? lol, I'm not sure, just the 1st thing that came to mind. Or move his W active so he can use it on enemy minions, but that may lead to him being able to farm way too safely though.

Meep Man1 votes

Well to be honest, as someone who barely plays Morde, I find that, excluding his E, I get very little of his Passive from minions anyways, especially with the decay making most of what I get be gone in a few seconds. So, either way, I would be fine I guess.

Primaquarius1 votes

I dont think theres a decent way to rework the Ability without boosting the champion damage shielding to possibly 50%...which actually makes him a late game monster worse than Nasus

Mordepool1 votes

Thought Machine right here Riot I hope your taking notes

Jet Sett1 votes

I mean just making it less effective when used against minions should be fine, anyone who can't beat you because of minion shield probably wouldn't beat you without it. Unless you escape an ignite with it.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

Only if they increase his base health to compensate.

Malicious Metal1 votes

Which I already statet in the OP

Evewynn1 votes

This is a really good idea, and gives him room to be buffed in other areas. I imagine this would make him weaker during the laning phase and stronger during teamfights. Definitely should receive some base stat increases though.

KoKoboto1 votes

I don't play Mordekaiser much but I remember being drawn to him because of the ultimate and one of the best Mordekaisers was Kuralesache lol But yeah even thematically it makes sense that Mordekaiser doesn't gain any shielding from minions because they're not like "human" and feel pain or have emotions compared to jungle camps and other champions

queue the "wow minions have feelings too" meme or something

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