You do realize zyra is in an even worse spot than sona is right?

manbearswine·Aug 15, 2015·13 votes·1,910 views

But the champion is so rarely played(because it's so "good") that even riot forgot she exists.

Same as sona she is a poke support,with a lower winrate and pickrate than sona(according to champion.gg),hell,she is even easier to punish than sona is,and is even more reliant on gold.

But she's been in such a bad spot for so long people just stopped caring,and unlike sona she's not even being looked into,apparently being ignored for two years isn't enough.

She's in a worse state than the majority of supports,and probably in a worse spot than sona as well,and has been in that spot for longer,maybe it's time to do something about it?

69 Comments

ZephyrDrakeAug 15, 201510 votes

Zyra is supposed to be a mid mage though. She is as much of a support as Shen is. Everyone knows Zyra sucks and until Riot decides to finally fix the worthless plant AI she has she won't be seeing any real use anytime soon

manbearswineAug 15, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Zyra is supposed to be a mid mage though. She is as much of a support as Shen is. Everyone knows Zyra sucks and until Riot decides to finally fix the worthless plant AI she has she won't be seeing any real use anytime soon

I suggest you pick zyra,look at her suggested itemization,and tell me what you see.

She was created with mid lane in mind,but it turned out her support was better,you can also see that she is mostly played as a support right now(at champion.gg) whereas shen isn't,in a similar fashion to that of blitz,she was released with a different lane in mind,but just transferred to being a support.

Now I'm not saying mid zyra should be ignored or anything,but a thread about a champion should be focused on the playerbase,and zyra's playerbase as a support is simply much bigger than that for midlane(at a ratio of 3:1).

As to her problems,they are for the most part the same as that of sona(can't lane vs skilled opponents,gold reliant,needs laning to last long,easy to gank,has issues maintaining map control),she is too easy to punish by meta supports,if your opponent picks a meta support and knows what he is doing,you are automatically at a disadvantage.

I actually strongly disagree her is problem is her passive(is completely fine imo,the delay is actually thematic and fits with the rest of her kit),or her plant ai(It has its issues,but fixing it won't make zyra a good pick).

ZephyrDrakeAug 15, 20153 votes

{quoted}

I suggest you pick zyra,look at her suggested itemization,and tell me what you see.

She was created with mid lane in mind,but it turned out her support was better,you can also see that she is mostly played as a support right now(at champion.gg) whereas shen isn't,in a similar fashion to that of blitz,she was released with a different lane in mind,but just transferred to being a support.

Now I'm not saying mid zyra should be ignored or anything,but a thread about a champion should be focused on the playerbase,and zyra's playerbase as a support is simply much bigger than that for midlane(at a ratio of 3:1).

As to her problems,they are for the most part the same as that of sona(can't lane vs skilled opponents,gold reliant,needs laning to last long,easy to gank,has issues maintaining map control),she is too easy to punish by meta supports,if your opponent picks a meta support and knows what he is doing,you are automatically at a disadvantage.

I actually strongly disagree her is problem is her passive(is completely fine imo,the delay is actually thematic and fits with the rest of her kit),or her plant ai(It has its issues,but fixing it won't make zyra a good pick).

She is played support because she is completely worthless as a mid, not that she is any better as a support and because of the utility she brings which makes her useful even without gold. Would you play a champion in a lane where said champion would be completely demolished due to how horrible it is atm or choose said champion in some other role where it might have a chance of doing something in it's current state? Her plant AI is a huge part of her issue, Riot has even stated that they want her to focus more on her plants which she cannot do at all until the AI is fixed. She is gold reliant once again because she wasn't made to be a support and she cannot maintain map control with useless plant AI which is what she uses to get said map control

Fixing her plant AI might not make her a good pick but it will help her immensely and it's way better than just giving her random number buffs that she might not even need

manbearswineAug 15, 20151 votes

{quoted}

She is played support because she is completely worthless as a mid, not that she is any better as a support and because of the utility she brings which makes her useful even without gold.

I'm not sure if that's a typo or not,but zyra is a pretty terrible support at the moment. Yes she bring utility,no she doesn't bring enough to justify picking her.

Would you play a champion in a lane where said champion would be completely demolished due to how horrible it is atm or choose said champion in some other role where it might have a chance of doing something in it's current state?

Honestly as a support main and someone who has played zyra a lot,you are going to be completely demolished vs a competent tank as vs a competent assassin,if they know what they are doing you have no chance.

Her plant AI is a huge part of her issue, Riot has even stated that they want her to focus more on her plants which she cannot do at all until the AI is fixed.

There are issues with making her more plant focused,specifically the mid-support issues. You can't really abandon one of her playerbases(though frankly if you do,abandoning mid is the obvious answer,you follow the playerbase,not the champion spotlight)

She is gold reliant once again because she wasn't made to be a support

Didn't seem to bother her in s3.

and she cannot maintain map control with useless plant AI which is what she uses to get said map control

Is plant ai literally hitler now? Her plant ai has absolutely nothing to do with map control,she lacks map control because fog of war just instagibs her,her movement is insanely restricted out of fear of anything jumping on her,plant ai has nothing to do with that.

Fixing her plant AI might not make her a good pick but it will help her immensely and it's way better than just giving her random number buffs that she might not even need

Ok let's be honest here,she's had an abyssmal pickrate for 2 years now,no competitive presence,nothing,I think it's time to face reality and realize that zyra most certainly needs buffs.

ZephyrDrakeAug 15, 20153 votes

{quoted}

snip

all i see here is someone who just wants Zyra to be nothing more than a support even though she wasn't designed to be one, and gives no damns about mid Zyra and doesn't care in the slightest about her main thing which are her plants. HER PLANT AI IS THE MAIN ISSUE and bringing past seasons? yeah because in S3 she was broken as hell so ofc she wouldn't mind being gold reliant when supports barely got any income in S3 and her bases and utility were more than enough to destroy everyone. You have no idea what makes Zyra be Zyra

manbearswineAug 15, 20151 votes

{quoted}

all i see here is someone who just wants Zyra to be nothing more than a support even though she wasn't designed to be one,

All I see is someone so focused on himself he can't see how selfish what he is asking for actually is. It's nonsensical to ignore the majority of her playerbase,the playerbase is by far the most important thing about a champion(followed by gamehealth)in contrast spotlight,original intentions and tags mean little to nothing.

and gives no damns about mid Zyra and doesn't care in the slightest about her main thing which are her plants.

You claim that to be so,I disagree,I see her more as a zone control/counterintiation mage,plants are a part of that,but so is the rest of her kit.

HER PLANT AI IS THE MAIN ISSUE and bringing past seasons? yeah because in S3 she was broken as hell

She wasn't,it was a myth created by a support circlejerk to claim mages are pushing regular supports out of bot lane(something which wasn't true at any given point),she was just a top tier pick,her pickrate was impressive(solo q and competitive) her banrate was not(can't say the same thing for thresh though).

nice 30% winrate on her in s3 btw.

so ofc she wouldn't mind being gold reliant when supports barely got any income in S3 and her bases and utility were more than enough to destroy everyone. You have no idea what makes Zyra be Zyra

Great,a gold 5 telling me I don't know anything about a champion you barely have a minor fraction of the games I have with it.

You know nothing.

ZephyrDrakeAug 15, 20151 votes

{quoted}

All I see is someone so focused on himself he can't see how selfish what he is asking for actually is. It's nonsensical to ignore the majority of her playerbase,the playerbase is by far the most important thing about a champion(followed by gamehealth)in contrast spotlight,original intentions and tags mean little to nothing.

You claim that to be so,I disagree,I see her more as a zone control/counterintiation mage,plants are a part of that,but so is the rest of her kit.

She wasn't,it was a myth created by a support circlejerk to claim mages are pushing regular supports out of bot lane(something which wasn't true at any given point),she was just a top tier pick,her pickrate was impressive(solo q and competitive) her banrate was not(can't say the same thing for thresh though).

nice 30% winrate on her in s3 btw.

Great,a gold 5 telling me I don't know anything about a champion you barely have a minor fractions of the games I have on.

You know nothing.

oh noes my 30% winrate with her 2 years ago when i barely even played her sure matters for something and oh noes i'm gold 5 and you play more games than i that surely means something also!

She wasn't broken and it was a myth? sorry but that right there shows you know nothing at all about Zyra nor the state of S3 when it came to supports constantly having mid mages coming to "support"and often doing a better job at it than the actual supports but sure keep believing that Zyra was balanced and not broken in S3.

Zyra was designed to be a control mage not a control support. Any changes done should reflect that, should she be allowed to go support? yes! doesn't mean "oh look at the pick rate clearly that means we should just forget about mid Zyra" that is stupid and a flawed logic. She should be made viable in the role she was designed to be a part of while keeping her SECONDARY role as a support intact. You sir know nothing at all about Zyra and you constantly keep proving it

manbearswineAug 15, 20151 votes

{quoted}

oh noes my 30% winrate with her 2 years ago when i barely even played her sure matters for something

Calls her to be broken then,then says he had no idea how to play back then. You're just making a fool of yourself.

and oh noes i'm gold 5 and you play more games than i that surely means something also!

Most certainly,definitely,110% does.

She wasn't broken and it was a myth? sorry but that right there shows you know nothing at all about Zyra nor the state of S3 when it came to supports constantly having mid mages coming to "support"and often doing a better job at it than the actual supports but sure keep believing that Zyra was balanced and not broken in S3.

Top 3 support in wc3 were sona(traditional),thresh(traditional) and zyra(mage),then you saw leona(traditional),janna(tradition) and fiddle(mage) in solo q.

And again,nice 30% winrate on a broken champion you have there.

"I admitted to have no clue about s3,but now I'm gonna pretend I didn't say that a few lines ago"

Zyra was designed to be a control mage not a control support.

And blitz was designed to be a top laner,how about you make a thread about what he was designed to do so that others can talk some sense into you.

Any changes done should reflect that,

Changes should follow the playerbase,nothing else.

should she be allowed to go support? yes! doesn't mean "oh look at the pick rate clearly that means we should just forget about mid Zyra" that is stupid and a flawed logic.

No,saying "I play her mid and since I do that everything and everyone should work around it" is just flat out retarded logic.

She should be made viable in the role she was designed to be a part of while keeping her SECONDARY role as a support intact.

Other way around,first of all balance her as a support,that is where the playerbase is,then her mid lane should be made as viable as possible,but the focus should always be on the playerbase,not on me,not on you,but who the majority of people who play said champion are,and that happens to be support.

You sir know nothing at all about Zyra and you constantly keep proving it

I'd be offended,if it didn't come out of someone who knows nothing about zyra,the game or common sense.

ZephyrDrakeAug 15, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Calls her to be broken then,then says he had no idea how to play back then. You're just making a fool of yourself.

Most certainly,definitely,110% does.

Top 3 support in wc3 were sona(traditional),thresh(traditional) and zyra(mage),then you saw leona(traditional),janna(tradition) and fiddle(mage) in solo q.

And again,nice 30% winrate on a broken champion you have there.

"I admitted to have no clue about s3,but now I'm gonna pretend I didn't say that a few lines ago"

And blitz was designed to be a top laner,how about you make a thread about what he was designed to do so that others can talk some sense into you.

Changes should follow the playerbase,nothing else.

No,saying "I play her mid and since I do that everything and everyone should work around it" is just flat out retarded logic.

Other way around,first of all balance her as a support,that is where the playerbase is,then her mid lane should be made as viable as possible,but the focus should always be on the playerbase,not on me,not on you,but who the majority of people who play said champion are,and that happens to be support.

I'd be offended,if it didn't come out of someone who knows nothing about zyra,the game or common sense.

she was broken back then and i never said i had no idea how to play her just that i barely played her since i don't like how she plays, reading too hard for you i see.

No it doesn't unless you are an elitist then sure it might mean something for your e-peen

On a champion i played a grand total of 17 times in ranked sorry i wasn't as good as you wanted me to be on a champion that didn't hold my interest

I don't play her mid nor i play her support, in fact i don't play her at all anymore unless i get her in ARAM since her plant AI is awful and she is too slow for her own good.

She should not be balanced around being a support, she should be balanced around being a mid mage unless they rework her entirely to be a support you can keep saying all you want about "playerbase" doesn't change anything. She is a mid mage first and a support second, you want that to be different? rework her entirely

Oh noes i know nothing about Zyra, the game or common sense! whatever shall i do! oh wait it's coming from someone who knows even less about the game, Zyra and has even less common sense

manbearswineAug 15, 20151 votes

{quoted}

she was broken back then and i never said i had no idea how to play her just that i barely played her since i don't like how she plays, reading too hard for you i see.

You played something,sucked at it,then decided it was broken anyway,cause clearly a gold would be able to tell,especially with that logic.

No it doesn't unless you are an elitist then sure it might mean something for your e-peen

Or that I understand the game,and the champion way better than you. "hurr durr diamond means nothing,sure I would feed my ass off if I went against diamond players,but that doesn't mean you understand the game better than me,I only feed cause,uh...e-peen!"

On a champion i played a grand total of 17 times in ranked sorry i wasn't as good as you wanted me to be on a champion that didn't hold my interest

I did the same on annie,just with 77.5% winrate,because she actually was broken,and I actually don't suck so I can tell that,and abuse it.

I don't play her mid nor i play her support, in fact i don't play her at all anymore unless i get her in ARAM since her plant AI is awful and she is too slow for her own good.

Well neither do I play her anymore,because she is too easily punished,but when I did play her I played her as support,now how about you?

She should not be balanced around being a support, she should be balanced around being a mid mage unless they rework her entirely to be a support you can keep saying all you want about "playerbase" doesn't change anything. She is a mid mage first and a support second, you want that to be different? rework her entirely

And why is that? Are supports not allowed to deal damage? Tanks should be allowed to support but mages shouldn't? should we push karma out of bot lane as well then?

Oh noes i know nothing about Zyra, the game or common sense! whatever shall i do! oh wait it's coming from someone who knows even less about the game, Zyra and has even less common sense

And yet somehow is still better at this game than you,You'd think that with all of your superior understanding you would at least surpass me in rank.

ZephyrDrakeAug 15, 20151 votes

{quoted}

You played something,sucked at it,then decided it was broken anyway,cause clearly a gold would be able to tell,especially with that logic.

Or that I understand the game,and the champion way better than you. "hurr durr diamond means nothing,sure I would feed my ass off if I went against diamond players,but that doesn't mean you understand the game better than me,I only feed cause,uh...e-peen!"

I did the same on annie,just with 77.5% winrate,because she actually was broken,and I actually don't suck so I can tell that,and abuse it.

Well neither do I play her anymore,because she is too easily punished,but when I did play her I played her as support,now how about you?

And why is that? Are supports not allowed to deal damage? Tanks should be allowed to support but mages shouldn't? should we push karma out of bot lane as well then?

And yet somehow is still better at this game than you,You'd think that with all of your superior understanding you would at least surpass me in rank.

yes, my S3 self sucked with her doesn't make her any less broken. I did not care enough back then to learn her properly and while my whole 17 ranked games i had with her on S3 didn't come out as good i did pretty well in normal games but sure keep using the grand total of 17 games i had with her 2 seasons ago that will show me something about her.

No you clearly do not know more about the game if you need to keep bringing something from 2 seasons ago like that matters in the slightest but whatever you say mr "my e-peen is bigger than yours"

good for you! i suck at being an ADC, yet i have a 83.3% winrate with Cait this season and had a 75% winrate with MF in S3 (since you love to bring past seasons into play). You can play champions every once in a while and do well with them just as much as you can do bad with them no matter how broken, OP, or UP they are.

I used to play her both as a mid laner and a support

Karma was designed to be a support so why would i want her to be pushed out of bot lane? or do you honestly believe she was designed to be a mid/top laner? Zyra deals more than enough damage as both a support and solo laner, what she needs is reliability which base numbers isn't going to add.

I would love to surpass you in rank but i don't play the game nearly often enough. I stopped playing altogether for almost 2 months and when i came back i barely even play more than 1~2 games a day if any. Yet when i came back i managed to climb and i'm always slowly climbing the ranks. I don't play the game enough to rise through the ranks fast and i'm always learning new things and applying them where i can. I don't need to surpass you in rank in order to be more know more about the game than you

manbearswineAug 15, 20152 votes

{quoted}

yes, my S3 self sucked with her doesn't make her any less broken. I did not care enough back then to learn her properly and while my whole 17 ranked games i had with her on S3 didn't come out as good i did pretty well in normal games but sure keep using the grand total of 17 games i had with her 2 seasons ago that will show me something about her.

I played like 40 annie games,didn't seem to be an issue. I keep mentioning it because you insist that s3 zyra was broken,which is utter bullshit and originated from a circlejerk,she was top tier,that's it.

No you clearly do not know more about the game if you need to keep bringing something from 2 seasons ago like that matters in the slightest but whatever you say mr "my e-peen is bigger than yours"

I keep bringing it up in relevance to what happened two seasons ago,she was not broken then,you insist that she was,and what you did 2 seasons ago is very relevant to understanding the state zyra was two seasons ago,it's VERY simple,even you should get it.

good for you! i suck at being an ADC, yet i have a 83.3% winrate with Cait this season and had a 75% winrate with MF in S3 (since you love to bring past seasons into play). You can play champions every once in a while and do well with them just as much as you can do bad with them no matter how broken, OP, or UP they are.

How you did on zyra two seasons ago is very relevant to your perception of zyra two seasons ago,your winrate on cherry picked champions(ofc with barely any games on them) however is not.

I used to play her both as a mid laner and a support

Karma was designed to be a support so why would i want her to be pushed out of bot lane? or do you honestly believe she was designed to be a mid/top laner?

I'm pretty sure she was designed for all,I'm guessing that's also why w now works on jungle monsters.

Again,blitz was designed as a top laner,should we push him back there because that was the original intention?

Zyra deals more than enough damage as both a support and solo laner, what she needs is reliability which base numbers isn't going to add.

Xerath seemed to do fine without reliability,in fact zyra seemed to do fine with greater numbers as well.

I would love to surpass you in rank but i don't play the game nearly often enough. I stopped playing altogether for almost 2 months and when i came back i barely even play more than 1~2 games a day if any. Yet when i came back i managed to climb and i'm always slowly climbing the ranks. I don't play the game enough to rise through the ranks fast and i'm always learning new things and applying them where i can. I don't need to surpass you in rank in order to be more know more about the game than you

Yes,you'll gain plenty of knowledge from playing the game rarely. "just because you play the game more often,and are better at it,doesn't mean you understand it better than me" Unfortunately,it does,lol is a game focused on decision making,if you knew the game better,you would be the better player,unfortunately,you don't,and you aren't.

Not that skill/understanding of the game even matters for the discussion of should zyra's balance be focused on support or mid lane(it does for how strong she was in s3 however),it's simply a question of design values,what is more important,how people play the champion,or what tag does that champion have?

ZephyrDrakeAug 15, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I played like 40 annie games,didn't seem to be an issue. I keep mentioning it because you insist that s3 zyra was broken,which is utter bullshit and originated from a circlejerk,she was top tier,that's it.

I keep bringing it up in relevance to what happened two seasons ago,she was not broken then,you insist that she was,and what you did 2 seasons ago is very relevant to understanding the state zyra was two seasons ago,it's VERY simple,even you should get it.

How you did on zyra two seasons ago is very relevant to your perception of zyra two seasons ago,your winrate on cherry picked champions(ofc with barely any games on them) however is not.

I'm pretty sure she was designed for all,I'm guessing that's also why w now works on jungle monsters.

Again,blitz was designed as a top laner,should we push him back there because that was the original intention?

Xerath seemed to do fine without reliability,in fact zyra seemed to do fine with greater numbers as well.

Yes,you'll gain plenty of knowledge from playing the game rarely. "just because you play the game more often,and are better at it,doesn't mean you understand it better than me" Unfortunately,it does,lol is a game focused on decision making,if you knew the game better,you would be the better player,unfortunately,you don't,and you aren't.

Not that skill/understanding of the game even matters for the discussion of should zyra's balance be focused on support or mid lane(it does for how strong she was in s3 however),it's simply a question of design values,what is more important,how people play the champion,or what tag does that champion have?

yes it was such much bullshit, if it was then Riot wouldn't have nerfed her as hard as they did. Look at Lee Sin, look at so many champions that people cry and moan all the time yet they rarely ever even touch them. It's not bullshit that she was broken, she was. She dealt too much damage and was too reliable back in S3 with what was available then. You are the one that insist she wasn't when everyone says otherwise. It's also very simple that how good i was in the game back then and how good i am now it's entirely different and how my mindset is also very different. It's completely irrelevant. I don't think i even reached Silver I on S3.

Karma was designed as a support, she just found more success as a solo laner, yet you see Riot constantly trying to make her a better support since that's her main role. People play Lulu as both a solo laner and a support? and riot is fine that she is played as a solo laner as long as she isn't crowding other picks. Yet they could just simply say "screw those players and just balance her around a support not caring about her solo lane potential" like you pretty much want to happen to Zyra

If he is going to be reworked into anything but a hook bot i would gladly see him out of the bot lane, he will be frustrating to play regardless of where he goes as long as he is a hook bot.

Xerath unreliable? he also has stupid long range and his skillshots are fairly fast he is way more reliable than you give him credit for. Everyone does good with high numbers you are a plat and you say stupid stuff like that? sorry but what? that statement right there shows you know nothing about the game. Just give everyone who is doing poorly better numbers that will surely make them do better, doesn't mean they will be healthy to the game. All you will have is a champion who is only good because it's a walking ball of stats instead because it actually brings something unique or relevant to whatever comp you want to make.

I can learn a lot about the game simply by watching others play, what others think about certain changes and then trying to apply what i can. All you can show with a higher rank is that your MECHANICAL skill is better than someone not how much you know about the game. So great for you, you can make better decisions than me on the fly great! good for you for showing me your mechanical skills are better than mine

It's a simple answer of making her viable where she was designed for while keeping her secondary roles intact. She is a mid mage by design and a support as a secondary role. Unless riot deems her to be better for the support role than a being a mid mage they should always strive to make her primary role, the one she was design for, to be as good as it possibly can

Aeolian MelodiesAug 15, 20151 votes

[{quoted}] She wasn't,it was a myth created by a support circlejerk to claim mages are pushing regular supports out of bot lane(something which wasn't true at any given point),she was just a top tier pick,her pickrate was impressive(solo q and competitive) her banrate was not(can't say the same thing for thresh though).

Annie Velkoz Morgana Fiddlesticks Nunu Karma Shen Veigar Zilean Zyra you called?

manbearswineAug 15, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Aeolian Melodies,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2JidcVHA,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2015-08-15T16:39:45.182+0000)

you called?

Yes,Hello,this is "nearly neligble presence compared to mainstream supports both in competitive play and in solo q speaking",how are things going for you?

Also,is shen a mage now? nunu is a mage? karma and zilean aren't supports? Too bad dfg garen got removed,I'm sure he would find his way to this list.

Aeolian MelodiesAug 15, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Yes,Hello,this is "nearly neligble presence compared to mainstream supports both in competitive play and in solo q speaking",how are things going for you?

Also,is shen a mage now? nunu is a mage? karma and zilean aren't supports? Too bad dfg garen got removed,I'm sure he would find his way to this list.

Annie and Morgana's presence are negligible? LOL.
Shen and Nunu are not mages but they are tanks (with Nunu specifically being designed for the jungle) that invaded the role.
Karma and Zilean both are primary mages (pre-rework Zil anyway, not sure wth post-rework Zil is supposed to be)

Ser GarlandAug 15, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I'm not sure if that's a typo or not,but zyra is a pretty terrible support at the moment. Yes she bring utility,no she doesn't bring enough to justify picking her.

So if you agree she's a terrible support as well then why not buff her mid? The community don't WANT her to be a support, they took her support because it was the only viable place for her. Recommended items only reflect what is being played normally, not what is intended. Pretty certain the community prays every day that she can go back to mid. It's just like champions who were forced to jungle in Season 3 because their laneing became obsolete.

Nameless VoiceAug 15, 20151 votes

Suggested itemisation is a bad way to categorise a champion. Shyvana's recommended items still tell her to buy Poacher's Knife, for example.

Zyra is supposed to be a control mage. Any changes to Zyra should be aimed at making her more viable in the mid lane again, without breaking her ability to be a support.

manbearswineAug 15, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nameless Voice,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2JidcVHA,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2015-08-15T12:20:24.709+0000)

Suggested itemisation is a bad way to categorise a champion. Shyvana's recommended items still tell her to buy Poacher's Knife, for example.

Well shyvanna is mostly a jungler now,isn't she? Sometimes things change,and not always riot feels the need to tell their playerbase where they intend the champion to go,but with zyra they purposely changed her recommended itemization to tell people that they probably should play her as support.

Zyra is supposed to be a control mage.

And leona is supposed to be a tank. Doesn't mean it can't be a control mage played as a support.

Any changes to Zyra should be aimed at making her more viable in the mid lane again, without breaking her ability to be a support.

The first priority should be to make zyra viable SOMEWHERE(she isn't right now),and that somewhere should probably be support(cause otherwise you are spitting the majority of her playerbase in the face,in favor of a more self entitled vocal minority(in this case it's not a theory,you can clearly see she is played much more as support in champion.gg)),then to support her other role as much as possible.

And before anyone mentions it,no,zyra isn't played more as support because her mid lane is shit,her support is shit as well,that reasoning doesn't work here.

Nameless VoiceAug 15, 20151 votes

Yes, Shyvana is a jungler, but Poacher's Knife is arguably the single most useless item in the entire game. There is almost no reason why anyone would ever want to buy it, yet it's right there in her recommended items.

Ser GarlandAug 15, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I suggest you pick zyra,look at her suggested itemization,and tell me what you see.

She was created with mid lane in mind,but it turned out her support was better,you can also see that she is mostly played as a support right now(at champion.gg) whereas shen isn't,in a similar fashion to that of blitz,she was released with a different lane in mind,but just transferred to being a support.

Now I'm not saying mid zyra should be ignored or anything,but a thread about a champion should be focused on the playerbase,and zyra's playerbase as a support is simply much bigger than that for midlane(at a ratio of 3:1).

As to her problems,they are for the most part the same as that of sona(can't lane vs skilled opponents,gold reliant,needs laning to last long,easy to gank,has issues maintaining map control),she is too easy to punish by meta supports,if your opponent picks a meta support and knows what he is doing,you are automatically at a disadvantage.

I actually strongly disagree her is problem is her passive(is completely fine imo,the delay is actually thematic and fits with the rest of her kit),or her plant ai(It has its issues,but fixing it won't make zyra a good pick).

The only reason her support is "better" is because her plant AI is so dumb and her passive is so weak atm that she's better played as a duo simply because of her E.

The truth is, neither role see's play because no one plays Zyra.

Zyra has the potential to churn out more damage in the game then any mid laner. This is why she was a mid laner.

I heard Meddler was reworking her passive.

A Miss FortuneAug 15, 20151 votes

If they fix Zyra's terrible plant AI and lowered her absolutely insane mana costs, I wouldn't be surprised if she was played in the LCS. She can do a ton of damage, but It's hard to do that in most cases since if you use two spells you go oom, and her plants prefer to push minion waves instead of killing 10 health enemy Viktor. Even when she's behind she has enough utility to make her relevant and she actually does better as the game goes on due to how her plants with a Liandry's, Luden's, and Rylai's can put out crazy damage that can burst down entire teams. But the fact her plants are retarded and her mana costs are probably some of the highest in the game right now, she's too unreliable.

CindikleAug 15, 20151 votes

If you look at Katarina.

You will see that recommended items is not something you base a character off of.

Zyra is weaker at a support and should be.

Zyra is for damage now, just situational.

manbearswineAug 15, 20151 votes

{quoted}

If you look at Katarina.

You will see that recommended items is not something you base a character off of.

Unless they are something changed on purpose,riot is basically telling you they see her more as a support right now. So unless katarina has jungler items/adc items/bruiser items in her recommened items,this isn't much of an argument.

Zyra is weaker at a support and should be.

Weaker compared to what? Her mid lane isn't good at all if that's what you are talking about.

Zyra is for damage now, just situational.

So situational that she should never be picked.

CindikleAug 16, 20151 votes

Unless they are something changed on purpose,riot is basically telling you they see her more as a support right now. So unless katarina has jungler items/adc items/bruiser items in her recommened items,this isn't much of an argument.

Don't remember what they were before she became seen as only a support. But she was a very rare sight for a long time. So once she suddenly became popular in a roll they adjusted her. They just haven't changed anything back. Probably because they don't know what to do with her.

Weaker compared to what? Her mid lane isn't good at all if that's what you are talking about.

Zyra can farm quite safe in the mid lane and has strong zone control. Her mid lane though has a lot of counters that can make this hard. This doesn't mean she's bad. Just hard to fit in every time.

She can use some tweaks. But I personally don't want to see her balanced around support.

manbearswineAug 16, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Don't remember what they were before she became seen as only a support.

Ap mid items.

But she was a very rare sight for a long time. So once she suddenly became popular in a roll they adjusted her. They just haven't changed anything back. Probably because they don't know what to do with her.

I'm pretty sure they changed it a solid time after the nerfs,riot is basically in denial to how bad the champion is,constantly thinking the problem is something else: i.e players not understanding she is better as support,so they tried to convince them otherwise,playerbase wasn't stupid enough to buy it.

Zyra can farm quite safe in the mid lane and has strong zone control. Her mid lane though has a lot of counters that can make this hard. This doesn't mean she's bad. Just hard to fit in every time.

That alongside her weaknesses and limited strengths does in fact make her very bad.

She can use some tweaks. But I personally don't want to see her balanced around support.

Well it's supposedly her stronger role,also her more popular one,there's no reason to balance her around anything else.

CindikleAug 16, 20151 votes

Ap mid items.

I meant which kind. Like how Kat's suggested items are horrible.

I'm pretty sure they changed it a solid time after the nerfs,riot is basically in denial to how bad the champion is,constantly thinking the problem is something else: i.e players not understanding she is better as support,so they tried to convince them otherwise,playerbase wasn't stupid enough to buy it.

That alongside her weaknesses and limited strengths does in fact make her very bad.

Not fitting in the meta doesn't make her weak. She could use buffs to her identity and roll. But it's hard to pull that off without buffing the other. And I don't think Riot wants her as a support.

Well it's supposedly her stronger role,also her more popular one,there's no reason to balance her around anything else.

A lot has changed since she was a strong support. The nerfs she got were not even that bad. No where near gutted. What really pushed her out is the fact that supports get gold now. This is what made tanky supports and Annie start to shine. I would argue that she doesn't have a stronger roll right now. But personally still side with her abilities as a mage. As long as you survive lanning you'll do great.

manbearswineAug 16, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I meant which kind. Like how Kat's suggested items are horrible.

I don't know,what does it matter?

They changed her recommended itemization to recommend to people to play her as support.

Not fitting in the meta doesn't make her weak.

She's been shit since the nerfs,that was about two years ago,please explain to me how that isn't weak.

She could use buffs to her identity and roll. But it's hard to pull that off without buffing the other. And I don't think Riot wants her as a support.

Now why would they possibly add the support tag to her,recommend her to build support items,change co-op vs ai zyra to be played as a support if they don't want her to be played that way?

A lot has changed since she was a strong support. The nerfs she got were not even that bad.

Do you have any idea how massive that blanket nerf was?

No where near gutted.

Very much so actually.

What really pushed her out is the fact that supports get gold now. This is what made tanky supports and Annie start to shine.

Do you even? Ugh. No,annie shone much brighter back in s3,the gold changes really weren't what made her shine. I do agree tanks seem to have benefited the most from the medium gold increase,but zyra was already dead before that(a big ogn tournament was played back then in patch 3.13,massive presence from annie,zero from zyra,all after the nerfs and before s4).

I would argue that she doesn't have a stronger roll right now. But personally still side with her abilities as a mage. As long as you survive lanning you'll do great.

I can say it about support zyra as well,and it would be as true(as in not true at all,all your opponent has to do is to adapt and play on your weaknesses,and you have many of those).

CindikleAug 16, 20151 votes

I don't know,what does it matter?

They changed her recommended itemization to recommend to people to play her as support.

Because she became popular as such. Before she became popular as a support she really didn't have much of a roll. It was mainly seen as mid. But many knew her power as a support. She was still rare.

She's been shit since the nerfs,that was about two years ago,please explain to me how that isn't weak.

Every time I've looked she is almost never under a 50% win rate and when she is, it's not by much. Even after her nerfs she didn't go under because she was so far over it. In her prime as a support it was not rare for her to hold the top winrate slot. Currently this could be because it's inflated by low winrates thus those who master her give her a better win rate. But it rarely accounts for more than 2-3%.

Now why would they possibly add the support tag to her,recommend her to build support items,change co-op vs ai zyra to be played as a support if they don't want her to be played that way?

Because she became popular as such. Riot probably thought "hey she's being used in a roll now, lets help newer players find this". Because that's the main reason tags and recommended items exist. Which is why they also often don't make sense to people who know why they are wrong. Kat, again, being the extreme. Don't know why they haven't changed her yet.

Do you have any idea how massive that blanket nerf was?

The worst of it was the stun at the end of her R. Q's damage shift wasn't too bad despite a net nerf. If you suddenly felt like you did no damage because of this the problem was you. If you suddenly felt like you were less safe the problem was probably her R. Most of the raging was about the Q change. And often still is today. Most of the threads about her complain about her passive or her damage.

Very much so actually.

Gutted champions drop to sub-45% winrates and stay there. If Zyra ever hit that, she didn't stay there.

Do you even? Ugh. No,annie shone much brighter back in s3,the gold changes really weren't what made her shine. I do agree tanks seem to have benefited the most from the medium gold increase,but zyra was already dead before that(a big ogn tournament was played back then in patch 3.13,massive presence from annie,zero from zyra,all after the nerfs and before s4).

Annie was strong in S3. But she continued to shine past that. Early S4 was about the Thresh/Leona/Annie. Annie worked because she could burst and CC even though the meta was shifting to tanks as supports. Annie was strong in S3, but she didn't shine there. She didn't become a common pick till S4.

Supports in S3 were picked for their utility. Zyra had strong teamfighting and was able to zone very well in lanning vs the other common supports. The supports that give her a hard time now gave her a hard time then. But they did not scale as well in the support roll. That is why Zyra fell off completely. What made her strong, high base damage and utility without items, was no longer a strong point as a support. Almost all standard supports fell off in this change. But others were able to gain utility scailing to help them out. Zyra got nothing with this adjustment.

I can say it about support zyra as well,and it would be as true(as in not true at all,all your opponent has to do is to adapt and play on your weaknesses,and you have many of those).

And to me that is fine. Supports are not meant to be picked to "survive lanning". This helps keep her in mid lane where she can maybe see tweaks to help her in said roll without effecting her a support.

manbearswineAug 16, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Because she became popular as such. Before she became popular as a support she really didn't have much of a roll. It was mainly seen as mid. But many knew her power as a support. She was still rare.

So why change her itemization,why make co-op vs ai zyra a support? Again,you haven't answered my question,if riot doesn't want zyra to support,why encourage it? Remember when mid raka was op? riot didn't change her suggested itemization then. Remember lulu as she is right now? has support itemization,even though better competitive presence in top/mid.

Every time I've looked she is almost never under a 50% win rate and when she is, it's not by much. Even after her nerfs she didn't go under because she was so far over it. In her prime as a support it was not rare for her to hold the top winrate slot. Currently this could be because it's inflated by low winrates thus those who master her give her a better win rate. But it rarely accounts for more than 2-3%.

Look at the title of this thread,now tell me: what is sona's winrate? They have a good winrate,yet any good support main will tell you both are shit,stop bringing winrates into serious arguments,they are only used to imply,they add very little if you actually know what you are talking about,also every fucking one and their mother is aware of them,obviously I don't think the represent either the state of sona or zyra,otherwise I wouldn't be calling them shit.

Because she became popular as such. Riot probably thought "hey she's being used in a roll now, lets help newer players find this". Because that's the main reason tags and recommended items exist. Which is why they also often don't make sense to people who know why they are wrong. Kat, again, being the extreme. Don't know why they haven't changed her yet.

And yet fiddlesticks never had recommended support itemization. It's obvious they went out of their way to tell people to play zyra as a support(as you've mentioned kat's recommended items are shit,riot often doesn't bother with them at all),now why would they do that if they didn't want it to be a thing?

The worst of it was the stun at the end of her R. Q's damage shift wasn't too bad despite a net nerf. If you suddenly felt like you did no damage because of this the problem was you. If you suddenly felt like you were less safe the problem was probably her R. Most of the raging was about the Q change. And often still is today. Most of the threads about her complain about her passive or her damage.

Q damage got a massive nerf,you obviously haven't seen what happened to other champions from similar changes.

Then Q range,putting her even in a greater danger to do anything. Plant early game damage,harming her laning even more. Ult cc duration. W cdr cut in half(Don't you dare call it free,she's an immobile,low ranged,slow,squishy she payed the price for it). Yes gutted.

Gutted champions drop to sub-45% winrates and stay there. If Zyra ever hit that, she didn't stay there.

Nope,winrates still mean shit.

Annie was strong in S3. But she continued to shine past that. Early S4 was about the Thresh/Leona/Annie. Annie worked because she could burst and CC even though the meta was shifting to tanks as supports. Annie was strong in S3, but she didn't shine there. She didn't become a common pick till S4.

Rofl,annie was fucking broken in s3,and her presence in ogn supports that fact.

Supports in S3 were picked for their utility. Zyra had strong teamfighting and was able to zone very well in lanning vs the other common supports. The supports that give her a hard time now gave her a hard time then. But they did not scale as well in the support roll.

This isn't true,aegis gave them the power to fight lane control early,something they didn't have before,they couldn't manage poke supports because when those supports were played by good players,they would shove you out of lane level 1-3 100% of the time.

That is why Zyra fell off completely. What made her strong, high base damage and utility without items, was no longer a strong point as a support. Almost all standard supports fell off in this change. But others were able to gain utility scailing to help them out. Zyra got nothing with this adjustment.

No,her nerfs alone made her drop dead(as I've said,ogn was played in 3.13,and there already was no sign of her),this was just another nail in her coffin.

And to me that is fine. Supports are not meant to be picked to "survive lanning". This helps keep her in mid lane where she can maybe see tweaks to help her in said roll without effecting her a support.

You keep saying she's not intended to be a support,there is absolutely nothing to support this claim,every change made to zyra so far implies riot sees her more of a support than a mid laner,every statement made so far never even slightly implied they want her out of bot,on the contrary,plenty implied they were fine with it.

Also it's "role",not "roll",it bothers me,sorry about that.

Mr Broken WingsAug 15, 20159 votes

Yeah lets buff zyra, the champion with the highest damageoutput with lowest gold income. What could possibly go wrong? She must be bad because everygame she is as a support she only has 10k more damage then everybody else if played correctly, we should buff her.

manbearswineAug 15, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mr Broken Wings,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2JidcVHA,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-08-15T11:36:34.317+0000)

Yeah lets buff zyra, the champion with the highest damageoutput with lowest gold income. What could possibly go wrong? She must be bad because everygame she is as a support she only has 10k more damage then everybody else if played correctly, we should buff her.

You do realize sona does more healing(cause apparently damage negation has it's uses)+damage than zyra does right? Oh,and it doesn't even take into account damage shielded,or the fact a big part of her q damage simply isn't attiributed to her(but she still creates it),oh,and she does that with a utility build which benefits her team(with items like mikaels and ardent censer being on her most frequent build,whereas zyra just goes full damage to give her damage output).

And yet sona is known to be bad,hell,so does zyra,it's just easier for people like you to silence legitimate complaints about her,simply because she is so bad few people care enough to complain,but the amount of people to try and silence legitimate discussions remains the same.

RatbertAug 15, 20151 votes

Utility builds on sona means she deals like 10k damage in a 40 minute game and heals around that much as well. Zyra will easily eclipse even her carries in damage as a support. There are STILL people complaining about sona's "massive poke" without having lived through pre-rework sona when she could actually deal half your hp but would die to minions.

manbearswineAug 15, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Utility builds on sona means she deals like 10k damage in a 40 minute game and heals around that much as well.

Played those builds on sona,this is a plain lie.

Zyra will easily eclipse even her carries in damage as a support.

if her opponents play like shit or if she is very good,yes. unfortunately people playing support realized there are other things aside from damage in this game,and the tradeoffs she makes just aren't worth it,same as sona.

There are STILL people complaining about sona's "massive poke" without having lived through pre-rework sona when she could actually deal half your hp but would die to minions.

There are people complaining about everything,and 100% of the complaints about sona are based on being bad and refusing to git gud.

RatbertAug 15, 20151 votes

Utility means something like pouring 4k into locket and mikaels, then getting censer. Censer also gives 40 ap which translates to like 100 more damage. Or are you saying morellos, censer and shadows is a "utility" build?

Zyra still has her aoe snare and knockups. Sure they're like super duper slow but if you miss you can just walk away.

If they refuse to git gud against sona, zyra getting buffed damage wise or plant ai wise will get her regutted.

manbearswineAug 15, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Utility means something like pouring 4k into locket and mikaels, then getting censer. Censer also gives 40 ap which translates to like 100 more damage. Or are you saying morellos, censer and shadows is a "utility" build?

Mikaels,locket/banner,censer is definetly a utility build,morrelos not,shadows..I'd say borderline,I'd be lying,shadows is utility(they help A LOT with warding).

Zyra still has her aoe snare and knockups. Sure they're like super duper slow but if you miss you can just walk away.

Yes,and lose the game.

If they refuse to git gud against sona, zyra getting buffed damage wise or plant ai wise will get her regutted.

There's probably a point in the middle where zyra will feel okayish but won't be qqed too much about.

RatbertAug 15, 20151 votes

Lose the game by missing one skillshot as zyra. People actually believe this?

That point probably doesn't exist if we aren't there with sona.

manbearswineAug 15, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Lose the game by missing one skillshot as zyra. People actually believe this?

zyra is a counterintiator for the most part,people dive you,you drop your e and r,if they miss then yes,you lose.

Aside from that(if you look at pick potential of e),it is HEAVILY outclassed by other things of the sort(missle speed,cc power,range,hitbox,the person using it being faster and can position himself more easily,the person using it not putting himself at as much risk to do so).

That point probably doesn't exist if we aren't there with sona.

her ult has a massive cooldown,if you force a bad ult out of sona she is VERY weak.

RatbertAug 15, 20151 votes

I'm saying the midpoint between qq and ok doesn't exist if sona as is is still complained about.

Zyra's is also the only multisnare that ignores minions, which is why it has to be so bad in other areas.

manbearswineAug 15, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I'm saying the midpoint between qq and ok doesn't exist if sona as is is still complained about.

Everything is complained about,one thing is riven/vayne QQ,which you constantly see dominating the boards,and another thing is sona level of qq,which I basically hear about here for the first time(I'm not counting the idiots downvoting the "buff sona" threads,you have these for everything,they are against buffing anything they don't play,and will spew any excuse to further that agenda).

Zyra's is also the only multisnare that ignores minions, which is why it has to be so bad in other areas.

An option would make it's bypass to scale with levels(say level 11 ult passive is that her ult now snares all targets hit,instead of damaging all and snaring only the first,for example),which would allow it to be stronger defensively(while making her weaker offensively),and while roaming.

Also plenty of other options.

RatbertAug 15, 20151 votes

Her ult snares?

There are numerous complaints on how sona is oppressively broken with her 60 base poke damage in the comments of like every buff sona or nami vs sona post.

manbearswineAug 15, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Her ult snares?

Sorry I mispelled that.

Her e will snare only the first target hit and damage everything,passive on level 11 ult would be that her e will now snare everything,solves the supposed laning issues.

Another option is to let her ult(when applying damage,not the knockup) purge speed boosts.

I have like 20 of these.

There are numerous complaints on how sona is oppressively broken with her 60 base poke damage in the comments of like every buff sona or nami vs sona post.

Yes that's what I was talking about,people who will complain about buffing everything which they don't play,their input is worthless,worse,it's destructive.

Not to mention all the silvers who do it for e-peen,thinking saying a champion that is considered bad is good makes them feel like they know something others don't,while actually just being idiots and stifling balance concerns.

GigahappytownAug 15, 20153 votes

Problem with zyra is Shes very slow Very squishy Very reliant on grasping roots to 100-0 anyone Doesn't have a real passive

Her damage is fine she has respectable burst and high sustained damage Shes like lux only better at teamfights while lux is better at picks

What they need to do is Give her a real passive increase her defense capability

Pretty DhiziAug 15, 20152 votes

So....

Zyra

Pros

Strongest/second strongest Zoning mage in the game, better than Heimerdinger in some aspects due to the quick-casting nature of her plants.
Great poke and harass thanks to plants/long spell range
Can do superb damage with just Liandries
Frost Queens Claim synergizes with her abilities so well it provides her the gold income to reach a superb state by midgame, let alone increase her damage
Extremely low cooldowns thanks to her W passive providing 10% CDR, and most Zyra's already have 10% CDR at level 1 via runes/masteries
Ultimate is the best engage/disengage tool a mage can have due to the sheer AoE of the spell, plus a knockup

Cons

Fragile. Low healthpool and armor-gain per level.
Mana-reliant until level 9-11 (the number is up to debate), making her poke situational unless the individual uses mana regen runes/masteries
Slow. Low-ass movement speed.
Lackluster, extremely situational ultimate. Already being worked on by Riot to be changed, or have better impact.

Zyra was intended for mid-lane at her release. Yes, she found better strength in the support role due to the meta slowly progressing to a 'poke enough to engage' composition (around the time Nidalee was being buffed/nerfed back and forth). But is she in a 'worse spot than Sona'? Heeeeell no. Sona's currently in a identity crisis since she's..Well, just a 'jack of all trades' support. She doesn't shine superbly in any area particularly after the repeated nerfs she's received after her high pick-rate in pro-play at prior seasons. Zyra on the other-hand, still excels at the role she was set out to perform when released. Zone, poke, and harass or disengage to victory.

Zyra is not at all gold reliant. Hello? Why do you think she fell into the support role so comfortably? If a Zyra has Liandries (which is reasonably cheap, provides magic penetration and a strong passive bonus from the %health burn, AKA, extremely strong since her plants proc it with each attack), she's practically ready to go. All a Zyra really needs to function well is just..Well, solely Liandries. Rylais works great currently with her too, and there's a good chance she can afford this since she's usually providing 3-4 sources of damage on a single target or multiple even, usually resulting in this 'support' getting a good deal of assist gold, AND kill gold. If she gets a FQC and liandries, she's good to go for the rest of the game unless the enemy team stacks magic resist extremely hard.

IMO the OP is entirely wrong with most of his statements and is just trying to get a champion buffed that's only really needing her ultimate/passive reworked (which is ALREADY being worked on by Riot currently).

manbearswineAug 15, 20152 votes

{quoted}

So....

Zyra

Pros

Strongest/second strongest Zoning mage in the game, better than Heimerdinger in some aspects due to the quick-casting nature of her plants.

Great poke and harass thanks to plants/long spell range

Can do superb damage with just Liandries

Frost Queens Claim synergizes with her abilities so well it provides her the gold income to reach a superb state by midgame, let alone increase her damage

Extremely low cooldowns thanks to her W passive providing 10% CDR, and most Zyra's already have 10% CDR at level 1 via runes/masteries

Ultimate is the best engage/disengage tool a mage can have due to the sheer AoE of the spell, plus a knockup

Cons

Fragile. Low healthpool and armor-gain per level.

Mana-reliant until level 9-11 (the number is up to debate), making her poke situational unless the individual uses mana regen runes/masteries

Slow. Low-ass movement speed.

Lackluster, extremely situational ultimate. Already being worked on by Riot to be changed, or have better impact.

Zyra was intended for mid-lane at her release. Yes, she found better strength in the support role due to the meta slowly progressing to a 'poke enough to engage' composition (around the time Nidalee was being buffed/nerfed back and forth). But is she in a 'worse spot than Sona'? Heeeeell no. Sona's currently in a identity crisis since she's..Well, just a 'jack of all trades' support. She doesn't shine superbly in any area particularly after the repeated nerfs she's received after her high pick-rate in pro-play at prior seasons. Zyra on the other-hand, still excels at the role she was set out to perform when released. Zone, poke, and harass or disengage to victory.

Zyra is not at all gold reliant. Hello? Why do you think she fell into the support role so comfortably? If a Zyra has Liandries (which is reasonably cheap, provides magic penetration and a strong passive bonus from the %health burn, AKA, extremely strong since her plants proc it with each attack), she's practically ready to go. All a Zyra really needs to function well is just..Well, solely Liandries. Rylais works great currently with her too, and there's a good chance she can afford this since she's usually providing 3-4 sources of damage on a single target or multiple even, usually resulting in this 'support' getting a good deal of assist gold, AND kill gold. If she gets a FQC and liandries, she's good to go for the rest of the game unless the enemy team stacks magic resist extremely hard.

IMO the OP is entirely wrong with most of his statements and is just trying to get a champion buffed that's only really needing her ultimate reworked (which is ALREADY being worked on by Riot currently).

Let me fix that for you:

Pros: Deals damage if you get hit by slow skillshots at a low range. mediocre poke. strong synergy with lyandires,a purely selfish item. offers good counterintiation if the enemy team lacks mobility and burst.

cons: Is shit vs poke comps. Is shit vs pick off comps. Is shit vs splitpush comps. Is shit vs assassins. Is shit vs strong all ins,so bot lane tanks. Is shit vs other poke/sustain supports,as they poke and sustain better. Shit map presence,due to being easy to catch warding. Shit roam,due to weak and unreliable cc and defense.

Hence competitive and solo q presence.

ZephyrDrakeAug 15, 20152 votes

{quoted}

please rito buff my waifu to be broken again

fix it for you.

None of the things he said was wrong but all you want is to have her buffed in the wrong manner. She is supposed to be weak if you get to her, she is supposed to be strong while she can keep her distance. What she needs is more reliability but all you want is for her to be a ball of stats, it's so obvious. Love how you say she is shit in so many things when most of it is not even true. Might as well add most if not every single low mobility champion to the list that is "shit" against all of those things.

manbearswineAug 15, 20151 votes

{quoted}

fix it for you.

How about make it a semi-decent pick at least,she's fucking unplayable right now.

None of the things he said was wrong but all you want is to have her buffed in the wrong manner. She is supposed to be weak if you get to her, she is supposed to be strong while she can keep her distance. What she needs is more reliability but all you want is for her to be a ball of stats, it's so obvious.

Nah,I'm fine with adding mechanics,I don't particularly care which mechanics though,could be numbers,could be extra utility,could be something else,I don't care too much.

Love how you say she is shit in so many things when most of it is not even true.

Everything I've said is 100% true,go ahead,name one thing which is false there.

Might as well add most if not every single low mobility champion to the list that is "shit" against all of those things.

The shit ones often do(sona for example shares a lot of things here),if I take something like morgana however: Great roam. Good against pick comps(You want either hard initiation OR good pick potential). Fine against splitpush. Is good vs bot lane tanks/all ins.

Really can't say the same thing about other low mobility meta champions,there's a reason they see play and zyra doesn't.

SnugglePuggle94Aug 15, 20151 votes

Riot is looking into her passive and her ultimate. But I agree she deserves more looking into, especially fixing her plants AI and her movement speed.

manbearswineAug 15, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Riot is looking into her passive and her ultimate. But I agree she deserves more looking into, especially fixing her plants AI and her movement speed.

Source please? Haven't heard about this.

SnugglePuggle94Aug 16, 20151 votes

The ultimate part is from the guy below me, Azukoto. The passive is from http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/skin-champion-concepts/lZwERUAI-possible-addition-to-zyra-passive