Cassiopea still needs buff

undEAdbUs··17 votes·1,653 views

After rework she was bad. After buff she became better, but still unplayable in ranked. Assassins or champions with higher range or with burst (lol its just all mid champions) simple destroying her. Her damage is not enough for trading and same time she needs to be aggressive to get her stacks (getting them by farming takes insane amount of time). Her manamanagment if amazing now, but same time it makes "drop" must-have-item, and makes her weaker in early game. I'm not talking about RoA because getting this items will make her useless until midgame, and I think this will be rare items on her. She still needs something to be stong.

31 Comments

Kowe The Ewok13 votes

She doesn't need a buff, she needs this rework to be reverted. Nothing good will ever come out of this passive and underwhelming ratios.

BigDaddySenpaiii13 votes

They've reworked passives and totally reworked complete champions to get rid of "hidden power" and specifically champions that are just walking stats.

So they rework Cass to be basically completely a ball of stats character, gated by arbitrary stack tiers and forced into basically only 1 item build.

Really doesn't make sense.

Serpents Embrace2 votes

And what's the factor that's different, there, hm?

Hint: it's a person.

Long Dong Wukong1 votes

I felt the need to tell you I don't know what you were trying to say

Serpents Embrace3 votes

The designer.

As far as I've been able to find out - Riot Stashu has only worked on the Cassiopeia rework. His initial Cassiopeia discussion thread he started before even getting Red forum status, so if he wasn't new he hadn't done anything the public wouldn't have interacted with until this.

I can't find any evidence that anyone helped him with the GU, conceptually or otherwise, but that could be because no one else wants to put their name on it considering it's the best runner for worst flop in League's history.

He's also at the heart of the reason why feedback, concerns and complaints fall on deaf ears. His strategy for dealing with the community consists of placation sentences like "I'll consider that" even though nothing changes. The 0.7 reset time 'bug' was reported during the PBE testing phase, the myriad of complaints about the rework after its live release are all things that he's blatantly ignored. He stopped visiting his old forum thread that was meant to discuss the rework weeks before the forums were shut down. When he finally got around to posting in the boards that's all he did. As of the last time I checked it (about 5 minutes ago) he has responded to not one single person.

4.16 definitely ruined my trust in Riot, but mostly because they allowed this one designer to disregard so many of the ideas they've recently decided to champion. A movement away from champions who are only balls of stats - Stashu turns Cassiopeia in to just that through her passive. A vow of dedication to clarity and communication for champion reworks after Skarner - the lack of exchange during the Cassiopeia fall-out makes Skarner's fiasco look refreshing.

I Solo Towers2 votes

I made this suggestion in another thread. Would fix her in 1 go without breaking her.

Increase the range of Noxious Blast to 1200 (Current: 850). Increase Noxious Blast delay to 0.25 - 1.50 (Current: 0.65), the delay length depends on the distance Noxious Blast is cast from Cassiopeia. Closer is a shorter delay, further is a longer delay.

ImpendingDeath3 votes

So you force a squishy character that depends on sustained damage to get in close to her opponents to deal damage? How would that help anything?

I Solo Towers2 votes

She would have almost the exact same delay at her max range. Nothing changes there.

But in close range (like when an assassin or tank jumps on her) there would be nearly no delay, giving her a better chance to keep applying blast and kite/twin fang.

She also would have the option to try and land a noxious blast at long range. Engaging only when she lands a poison enabling her to engage only when she has the movement buff and can spam twin fang. One of the big problems with cass now is she has to commit not knowing if she has poison up because of the short range/delay.

Lastly much easier stack farming when she falls behind. You ever try and farm stacks when the other player can all in you if you get close?

ImpendingDeath2 votes

An experienced Cass player will never have any difficulty using a Q+E combo. If you cast it and get the speed boost, you cn follow up with E spam, plus your target will have the poison debuff on them as Q ticks down. Her Q+E combo has never been an issue. Cass's current issues have nothing to do with Q+E. Her current issues are 1) Mana costs not adjusted from the passive change, forcing a tear start 2) Failure to be useful until the 30-minute mark on account of her passive and 3) sharply reduced base damage and AP ratios to compensate for the 30% AP gains from the passive. Q+E has NEVER been an issue with her, and I have played Cass for some time now. If an assassin jumps on you, you can ult if you have it, or place down W and then Q and kite that way. You don't really need a shorter Q delay, and that wouldn't address her other problems.

I Solo Towers1 votes

This is an argument for reverting cass to her previous play style.

My suggestion allows cass to play in the style intended by the rework.

ImpendingDeath4 votes

I pointed out the issues with her current iteration, namely that her mana costs are too high, her passive delays her usefulness for too long, and her reduced damage. How would a longer Q range and reduced delay address any of those issues?

I Solo Towers1 votes

She was meant to be a safe lane choice that eventually at some point hits a huge power spike that turns into a massive carry mage.

If you reduced her mana cost, got rid of her passive, and buffed her ratios you'd have something that plays like old cass.

If you implement my suggestion you'd have a safe lane choice that eventually hits a huge power spike and turns into a massive carry mage.

Look I like old cass. But she's not going back to that form, riot posted they felt strong old cass was unhealthy for the game. Riot's history has shown they will wreck a champ to unplayable before they let an "unhealthy" option exist.

ImpendingDeath3 votes

If you implement my suggestion you'd have a safe lane choice that eventually hits a huge power spike and turns into a massive carry mage.

"Eventually" being the operative word in this sentence. She can get a lot of AP, sure, but it takes an absurd amount of time, and the reduced base damage and AP ratios were cut too severely to be compensated with just a Q range extension. One of the major issues Riot took with Cass was her long-range Q poke, and there's know way they'd consider adding power back there.

Look I like old cass. But she's not going back to that form, riot posted they felt strong old cass was unhealthy for the game. Riot's history has shown they will wreck a champ to unplayable before they let an "unhealthy" option exist.

I'm not giving up on getting this passive demolished and this rework reverted. Cass's current power level is much too lacking in a number of areas to be addressed with just a Q range increase. Setting this current incarnation of Cass at a healthy level of balance would require more than just a single, modest change that Riot wouldn't consider.

I Solo Towers1 votes

Ah you're an optimist and i'm a realist. But I think we're both fighting the same fight.

I can't ever think of riot doing a full revert to a rework, so I doubt that will happen. Instead my suggestion was aimed to hopefully keep cass in the play style riot wants and increase her kit viability to where all she needs is a number buff.

PAULlNE2 votes

The new cass just takes way to long to be useful, I could pick syndra for a very similar playstyle who is useful immediately.

Melvear1 votes

The new cass just takes way to long to be useful, I could pick syndra for a very similar playstyle who is useful immediately.

How is Syndra similar to Cass? Syndra has CC and burst, while Cass has sustained damage and health/mana sustainability. Cass can keep going to town on anyone as long as she can keep them poisoned and has mana, while Syndra needs to wait on cooldowns. Cass can solo dragon, and she can duo Baron with an adc late game with both of them leaving the pit at full hp. I'd like to see Syndra do that.

L7xLoTek2 votes

Her numbers are definitely off currently. One that I really don't understand in the rework is the ratio-by-level change in her Twin Fangs (MAGIC DAMAGE: 55 / 80 / 105 / 130 / 155 (+ 40 / 45 / 50 / 55 / 60% AP), I didn't even realise this was the case until looking it up). I mean, if it was 60% every level you could at least happily level up Noxious Blast first to keep you going early-mid game. Another part I really dislike is the CDR in the passive. Drop it and move the power back to the skills base stats so you can actually build CDR to Cass without losing stats. And hey, if you feel like investing in CDR you actually get more out of it.

xJLx MCHammer2 votes

Her damage is just way too long. I keep telling people to stop playing her. She isn't rewarding enough. Like you can land **AN ENTIRE COMBO **on a mid lane enemy like Fizz, Zed, Yasuo, and they will survive it. By entire combo I mean Ult. Q, W, and 3E + ignite. There is a fine line between rewarding and underpowered and Cassiopeia is treading on both lines right now.

She needs help! Statistically speaking, her winrate is horrible if the game does not pass 30 minutes. By horrible, i mean, in 26-35%. if the game hits past 40 minutes, her winrate is 50%. The problem is, only ~27% of games actually make it past 35 minutes. That's the big problem for her. Her early game is SHIT

Long Dong Wukong2 votes

She's dead Jim

ComannderShepard1 votes

I still don't understand. New cass is very strong. Why do so many have issues with her?

I Solo Towers8 votes

She is literally the worst champ in the game at ever single level of play. If you have cass on your team it drops your chance to win by nearly 10%.

ComannderShepard1 votes

I have yet to see one do that poorly

The Queen Viper4 votes

I have yet to see one do that poorly

Have you even seen her played since the rework?

Long Dong Wukong3 votes

I have yet to see one do that poorly

Useless every match she's in.

Just like Azir was at release.

The character is just heavy,. You have to carry her, she won't pull her own weight by any means.

The Queen Viper4 votes

New cass is very strong.

She's not, actually she's too weak and undertuned right now.

Why do so many have issues with her?

Because she's trash. Maybe you should go and read some of the massive threads about it?

ComannderShepard2 votes

Maybe you should actually try playing her? Because I've played her quite a bit and I have no real issues with her.

The Queen Viper2 votes

Cool story bro. You have played only 5 games with her, and none of them are even Ranked games. Ofc you don't have issues with her when you are playing only Normals and couple of Dominion/ARAM games, jezus... are you serious?

Maybe I should try her? Please, go check my profile from any sites that offers them, then come back and tell us how many games I have played Cassiopeia.

Melvear1 votes

I don't see Tear being "forced" on her. Given her gameplay (before and after rework) it's just an item that makes sense with her. Unless you're being badly bullied in lane, it most likely would have been rushed anyway. Plus, it's not like a mana regen item as a first buy is uncommon with mages. Most just buy chalice instead of tear.

I personally like the idea with the current rework, ie highest sustained single target dps mage. Pre-rework had better aoe, but she definitly was not an aoe mage. She had better poke as well, but this being an issue they wanted to address, I don't see them reverting that back to the way it was before. Being able to spam E through poisoning your target was always, in my eyes, the core of her kit. This makes her a great kiter (Slow+MS boost with W+Q, get Rylai's for improved kiting) and an incredible duelist (between Will of the Ancient and her passive E heal, she can heal back as much hp as an adc)

The only issue I have with her is just how long it takes to accumulate stacks. It doesn't take (or shouldn't anyway) 40 minutes to reach 400 like many claim, but it does take way too long. Having more steps along the way seems like an easy way to go about making her ramp up feel better. 75-150-225-300-375 seems like a good progression to me. Give 6% increased AP per step, 8/8/9% cdr in the first 3 and the heal passive on E at 75 like it does now, and you end up with a much more progressive ramping up of her power.

From there they can adjust numbers (ratios, base damage, costs) and she'd be fun and very unique.

Serpents Embrace3 votes

If you wanted the highest DPS mage niche to be filled - why did they remove the poison DoT mage to do it? :|

And itemization, Tear isn't the offender with the forced itemization. The CDR and base damage nerfs to her abilities weakened the Ryliandry's build path, and the over-all lower damage on each ability weakened going off-tanky with RoA, WotA and/or tank items. You need to build glass cannon AP to get her passive to pull its weight, and even then it doesn't get off the ground until 400 stacks.

This isn't an adjustment issue. The new rework is conceptually bad. It doesn't fit for what she was before her rework, and it doesn't function as a champion because it's needlessly complicated and unrewarding.

Melvear3 votes

If you wanted the highest DPS mage niche to be filled - why did they remove the poison DoT mage to do it? :|

And itemization, Tear isn't the offender with the forced itemization. The CDR and base damage nerfs to her abilities weakened the Ryliandry's build path, and the over-all lower damage on each ability weakened going off-tanky with RoA, WotA and/or tank items. You need to build glass cannon AP to get her passive to pull its weight, and even then it doesn't get off the ground until 400 stacks.

Admittedly, yes, I can see Liandry being a poor choice on the new Cass. She's much more of an all in mage now than a poke mage, so she doesn't benefit from it nearly as much. I disagree that you can't go somewhat tanky though. Because of her E heal, and the fact that you'll pretty much always end up with a Seraph's Embrace, going with a sustain (vamp) build with resists seems quite workable. The shield from Seraph allows you to not get bursted down, and between E passive and vamp, you heal up at an incredible rate.

This isn't an adjustment issue. The new rework is conceptually bad. It doesn't fit for what she was before her rework, and it doesn't function as a champion because it's needlessly complicated and unrewarding.

It doesn't fit with what she was before because they felt what she was before was bad for the game, so it makes sense that they went in a different direction. I feel this is also answers your first question, why use the dot mage to make the dps mage. For one thing, she was already one of the highest single target dps mage anyway. Second, they most likely felt that number tweaks wouldn't work to not make her toxic (no pun intended) in lane.

The passive isn't complicated either, though it is very clunky in its current form. It rewards you for harassing, for CSing using her kit's synergy (Q/W minions, finish off with E to regen mana and get stacks) and it also forces you to keep doing those things post laning phase since it's impossible to reach max stacks by then. The problem is the immense gap between rewards for doing those things. As was mentionned before, Veigar and Nasus see their power rise slowly as they use their scaling mechanic, while Cass sees nothing for a long time and then boom, big bonus, and it doesn't feel as good.

Serpents Embrace3 votes

That E heal is pathetic and you know it. It's low base, low scaling and in a lot of cases regeneration is going to be more useful than it. Don't give me that shit.

No one said that Cassiopeia was bad for the game. The closest hint to that was along the lines of "and when she's powerful her ability to bully a lane crowd out a lot of other champions from mid lane". If you think that warrants a complete identity destruction and kit perversion, re-evaluate yourself. Re-evaluate everything, because that's a horrifying precedent to set for champion reworks.

Aspect of the Serpent is needlessly complex. Deadly Cadence was really powerful with Cassiopeia's kit; it had one "cause" and one "benefit" so whenever you were using it right it was clearly obvious, you were rewarded for combo'ing it with things like Tear but not punished for trying things like Morellonomicon or Athene's. Yes, it was boring. Yes, it would have been the best place to start to change her - but adding a bunch of random triggers for a bunch of random effects is definitely not what she needed when the skill cap for her skill usage was already considered one of the highest in the game.

25% CDR at some random point in the late-mid-game in exchange for almost doubling her basic's cooldowns? What is actually the point or just handing her a bunch of stats to make up for something you took away just so you could later hand her some CDR? It's so nonsensical. By the time you get the CDR bonus you've already been hurting for 25 or 30 minutes because you don't have the CDR and the worst part is that if you did invest in CDR for your early game like you would want to for laning - that gold is now wasted. By the time you get your cherished piddly sustain, you're almost done laning assuming your opponent wasn't smart enough to just force you out of lane and take your turret because you are actually useless before 50 minutes or so.

Having to wait for the bonus (I refuse to call any of them big, as they are all literally shit rewards) isn't why it feels bad. It feels bad because you're forced to jump through hoops for things that only matter to Cass now because Stashu forced them in.

This whole ordeal has been awful, from the almost non-existent heads up, the utter lack of community input during design, the ignoring of feedback during PBE, to current lack of communication with the community. There is not anything redeemable about anything done to Cass in 4.16. The GU was awful, the TU made her look absurdly cartoonish and the Lore butchery made her a generic Noxus villain. As a player, how the hell are you defending any part of it? You let them set this precedent and they'll start doing it more, and all it will do is lessen the quality of the game.

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