even if people who play her dont master the animation cancelling idea the fact is why does it even exist in the first place. why isnt the champ changed buffed or nerfed and have this "core" part of her removed. Riot has always had the excuse of it being so critical to her kit as a champion that if they were to get rid of it then they could deal with her free damage/annoying kit
Hella Kaiser44 votes'cause they don't know to fix it.
edit: it's actually 'cause her gameplay represents the lore, both her sword and her spaghetti code are broken.
General Esdeath 14 votesThe thing is every champ uses animation cancels. The only reason people complain about Riven's is because she can cancel 3 just on Q.
Nameless Voice11 votesWhatever else you can say about it, it certainly breaks their core principle of Clarity.
As someone new to Riven, you simply won't understand why you seem to do so little damage compared to everyone else who plays her. There's no way to find out how to play your champion effectively without reading up on her online.
Meanwhile, opponents have no way of knowing if the Riven they are facing is one who knows about animation cancelling or not, and as such have no way to judge her damage output / burst potential until they've actually been fighting her.
Spaceman5pff9 votesRemoving Animation cancelling from riven would mean she is the onlychamp who cannot orbwalk or AA reset, making her arguably the most useless melee in the game, nerfs / buffs aside.
If you are going to remove all animation cancelling from one champion, you have to pull it from all of them, because Animation cancelling has MASSIVE impact on how EVERYTHING works.
ADC would (actually, not a meme here) the worst class in the game, since they would no longer be able to kite. No animation cancells means no orbwalking = good luck getting away from any melee just walking at your face with Ninja Tabi.
Sozan56 votesUh, I believe the core problem here isn't the fact that she can ani-cancel.
It's that she gets free attack speed from it.
For example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIDOMzmF9Gs
Here you can see Riven that unleashes 4 AA in matter of 2 seconds. Last time I checked she didn't have 2.0 AS.
Now try doing it with most other champions - let's go with Urgot since his Q is easy to ani-cancel, go for AA->Q->AA combo. You will notice that while you can to AA->Q and Q->AA rather seamlessly (with movement in between, just like Riven) you cannot do AA->Q->AA, because you don't have enough Attack Speed. Urgot will just sit there awkardly waiting for his AA to go "off cd".
This is true for most abilities in the game - you can ani-cancel them, but they don't give you free AA, they just let you start and finish the AA faster.
I say - do not remove ani-cancel - remove the AA reset from her Q. Maybe add it to her E or W instead.
(Mind you that there are other abilities that do an AA reset, please do not list them, I know them, I know Riven's Q is among them, and that's what the problem is)
Asayake 5150glow2 votesUh, I believe the core problem here isn't the fact that she can ani-cancel.
It's that she gets free attack speed from it.
For example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIDOMzmF9Gs
Here you can see Riven that unleashes 4 AA in matter of 2 seconds. Last time I checked she didn't have 2.0 AS.
Now try doing it with most other champions - let's go with Urgot since his Q is easy to ani-cancel, go for AA->Q->AA combo. You will notice that while you can to AA->Q and Q->AA rather seamlessly (with movement in between, just like Riven) you cannot do AA->Q->AA, because you don't have enough Attack Speed. Urgot will just sit there awkardly waiting for his AA to go "off cd".
This is true for most abilities in the game - you can ani-cancel them, but they don't give you free AA, they just let you start and finish the AA faster.
I say - do not remove ani-cancel - remove the AA reset from her Q. Maybe add it to her E or W instead.
(Mind you that there are other abilities that do an AA reset, please do not list them, I know them, I know Riven's Q is among them, and that's what the problem is)
The whole point of animation canceling Riven's Q for the fast combo is because of the auto attack reset. It's also what allows her to function as a melee carry who does not build attack speed (Fiora, for example, has E reset, E attack speed, and also much better ratios than Riven besides Riven's ult, think about that)
Removing the auto attack reset would seriously gimp Riven's dps. It's not a problem, it's an intended feature which she is balanced around.
Sozan56 votesWell, I still believe it'd be way easier to balance her afterwards. This way she wouldn't feel clunky (well, at least not nearly as much as she would if ani-cancel was removed) and you wouldn't have to balance her around either doing complete combo in less than 2s or as much as twice of that (I mean, ani-cancel would make her Q faster anyways, but at least without 3 bonus AAs in it).
That said, there might be other ways to change it (delaying her attack animation (would make sense actually, because Riven attack hits sooner than one would expect from animation), giving a small cd between Q recasts or sth else), but I don't think Riven will ever be really balanced until they change it
Sire Hippington2 votesI say - do not remove ani-cancel - remove the AA reset from her Q. Maybe add it to her E or W instead.
this is exactly the issue. Most people on boards think that rivens animation canceling is what gives her the increased AS and thus want that mechanic removed, but it's the fact that her Q resets AAs(not sure if fully or partially tough) in combination with animation canceling that allows her to AA much faster than she should. Without animation cancleing, the resset isn't that noticeable because the animation takes enough time for the AAs to barly come out faster than usuall. With animation canceling however, the full reset can be abused.
The logical thing to do imo would be hitting the AA reset on her Q, as that's specific to her kit, and not hitting animation canceling which is equal for all champions. If riven feels to clunky without AA-resets on Q, they could always increase her base as or add some AS-boost on E, which would reward agressive use of the dash.
Sozan52 votesIt's full AA reset on each use of her Q.
TEA Nietzsche 10 votesAnimation cancelling isn't exclusive to Riven, many champions have it. And why wouldn't they? It makes so many champions so much smoother whether it's Graves, Lucian or Riven, all of them feel so much better with animation cancelling.
Spaceman5pff16 votesIt is true, having to wait out animations after their purpose is fulfilled is both frustrating AND clunky.
Every played a fighting game where you got staggered? IMAGINE NOT BEING ABLE TO INPUT, JUST BECAUSE OR WHAT YOU DID A MOMENT AGO!
You would actually be thinking faster than the game would let you play.
Removing ALL animation cancelling would mean RIP adc kiting, because THAT is animation cancelling. It would mean RIP autoattack resets, which would drain power from lots of champions.
Ravenous and titanic hydra would need some serious buffs. The usefulness of trinity force and any other sheen item would drop.
Junglers would need buffs (which the boards would love)
blueberrypancake4 votes^ Yeah ADCs would probably drop 10+% in winrate if animation canceling was somehow removed from the engine
RocketRelm1 votesI'm actually not sure they'd drop 10% in win rate as a "class", because there'd still be one on each team in every game. Thusly all the played ADC champions in sum would still need to have 50% win rate.
(unless of course they became so bad that Ziggs esque replacements became the new norm.)
Spaceman5pff1 votesI seriously doubt there would be one per team though.
even if there was, it would be almost exclusively Jhin and Lucian who do less standard kiting than most marksman.
AA Marksman would be useless whereas any viable casters would skyrocket. Draven would probably be hit harder than anybody else.
Ziggs - Esque replacements likely WOULD become the norm. Even bruisers botlane maybe, since getting away as a ranged champ would be so much harder if you wanted to fight back, and exit trading would be less because chase potential drops when you can't orbwalk.
would likely thrive in the botlane.
RocketRelm2 votesTechnically, not every adc animation cancels to kite.
Spaceman5pff2 votesK I forgot about that one, but I thought we were talking about champions, not tumors
[slayer-jinx-wink]
NiceTryVi2 votesAh yes, how dare riot force you to sit through an animation of a skill you want to use. Everything should happen instantly with no animation!
The simple solution to this is to frontload the animation. This way, you sit through the entire animation, LIKE YOU ARE INTENDED TO, and if you try to animation cancel, you lose the ability or attack you were trying to use. Because animation cancelling is a bug. And bug abuse is cheating.
ChaoticPinecone2 votesOkay - you arent wrong. All your points are true.
But lets look at some exclusive-to-Riven problems. She has too many animations that she can cancel. Yes, removing auto reset would drain power from champions like Nasus. But removing the auto reset would affect Riven's Q 3 times as much. Plus, most champions are forced to go through most of their animations. Riven is exclusively a problem because she can do things like E-3rd Q-W and cast all 3 abilities in the same time it takes a non-animation canceling RIven to get a E off. Being able to cast a delayed ability with no delay is pretty huge, but Riven is a "biggest offender" type of problem because she can do this with so many of her abilities.
Crett3 votesSo why not make it automatic? It's like L-cancelling in melee; it doesn't present any gameplay to your opponent, it's just a binary input that creates an artificial gap between players who've practiced it and players who haven't. i think there's way more to skill and mastery than how well you can exploit a bug to make your champ do things faster.
Ahristocats9 votesit made her nerfed multiple time and now she's balanced around it
which is fine because it increases the skillcap of riven
as a non-riven player i would love the mechanic to be removed(with compensation) so i can play her without needing to play 100K mastery point
Supreme Senpai699 votesI call bullshit. How do we know that this "Rivn" fellow is a "Riven" main?
Aeszarck3 votes[{quoted}](name=Revan Senpai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2E5OR05E,comment-id=0014,timestamp=2017-02-11T00:02:08.338+0000)
I call bullshit. How do we know that this "Rivn" fellow is a "Riven" main?
Yeah, what if he's/she's just a Riv[ingto]n fan?
Jeanne fan club6 votesRemoving animation canceling on Riven means that every champ in the game has to lose their animation canceling. I don't know if you have ever played a champion with buffers, but it feels extremely blocky and slow. Animation canceling is an advanced game play aspect that plays a part in determining the difference between divisions. the normal, ability then basic attack (or vise versa) is an animation cancel that exists on pretty much every champion.
For riven specificaly, It plays a very important part in her dps. Without the animation canceling, she would be sitting at a 40% winrate easily.
Ariel the Cruel6 votesDespite technically being a punishable exploit, animation canceling is a common and ignored part of the game's design (or endorsed in the case of Riven and Orb-walking).
Why?
Crett5 votesthe hate riven gets is not blind; it is tempered, albeit poorly channeled by the majority.
because, y'see, nobody who hates riven really has facts at their disposal when railing against her on the forum; because a lot of player's problems with riven are a matter of philosophy. she's not a poorly designed champ, and she's got a high skill ceiling. she isn't overpowered by any margin. she's got pretty clear weaknesses if you understand her kit, and especially if your champ has the tools to deal with her. all in all she should be a pretty well rounded champ.
but... she... is a goddamned obnoxious monkey. she's really annoying to fight as a lot of champs. that's just about the #1 reason people don't like Riven. you can make mistakes against other champs and lose just as bad as you would riven, but we all know that riven has some very very high tilting power when she can get that ball rolling.
if i had an issue with riven beyond that, it's actually less to do with her being annoying and more to do with the design philosophy behind animation cancelling.
it's a lot like L-cancelling in super smash brothers, another bug that ascended to a fully featured game mechanic; an input that can be made that actually presents no decision or meaningful gameplay to the opponent. it's a binary optimization that doesn't do anything but put a fat artificial gap between players who've practiced it and players who haven't. and it could very well just not be there.
in fact, in fan-made revisions of the games, L-cancelling was made automatic, but was met with extreme backlash from high level players who extensively practiced the mechanics. sound familiar? lmao
the worst part is nothing on riven's kit even tells you about it. it's like they won't address it in any way despite her being balanced around it at this point.
i'm not trying to argue with anyone or be disrespectful with this post i swear.
this is just my perspective on the tsunami of discourse that is the Riven debate.
Fondling Gems5 votesPeople talk about animation cancelling like only Riven does it. Pretty much every champion in League can animation cancel, Riven is just the most extreme example.
Hibeki5 votesBecause most champions can usually only cancel one or two animations with a single action.
Rivens entire kit is animation cancelling, coupled with 3 auto attack resets to cancel something else, TO BE CANCELLED.
Riven is some fucking short hop neutral air ledge cancel into downair L cancel wave dash shine wave dash shit
Fondling Gems2 votesAnd that is a bad thing? She is still balanced around the idea that she can cancel, people are only complaining about her right now because the lethality buff pushed her over the edge, it is just the hype train of the week.
Riven is expected to animation cancel, in fact she isn't that strong without it. Yes she animation cancels more than any other champion in LoL but she was basically built around being the animation cancel champion. She is the champ designed for people who like complex combos in fighting games so they have a champion they can enjoy in LoL.
Hibeki3 votesThe concept in itself isnt a bad thing, the problem is the way it was executed is totally unbalanced.
She trades off nothing for having no mana. Literally nothing. She can spam it freely and have the ability be back up within less than 5 seconds.
The problem lies in that you are bringing this concept in a game that has strict metas and a strict "this character is better than this character"
This works in smash brothers because all characters are practically equal with a few exceptions. Player skill matters much more than what the items you have or what your gold you have.
There is no snowballing in fighting games. You dont kill someone and get stronger. It's up to your player skill whetehr you come back or not. In LoL there are WAY too manyfactors to give you an extreme advantage. There are minor matchup disadvantages in fighting games but ultimately can be overcomed, whereas in LoL if you have more gold and are a higher level you will hands down win a fight.
In melee, you can make a 4 stock comeback if you play well. But in lol if youre down four kills against your laner in gold and try your best, you will still lose.
This type of character DOESNT WORK in a moba.
Cosmic Warper4 votesYou want ekko to not be able to cancel his q animation with e? Without that his winrate would plummet because it's the only thing that makes his combo reliable enough to hit.
Spaceman5pff3 votes
R -> E
W -> Q
Q -> R
E -> Q
W to escape Q dash
R -> Literally any spell or Ravenous Hydra / Tiamat, W -> Tiamat, Tiamat -> E.
Plenty of champions require animation cancelling to hit their potential.
INoble KnightI2 votesAlistar is a buffer not animation cancel.
Spaceman5pff2 votesFair enough.
Still a complex interaction between abilities that takes practice to master, though. or did they patch that to make is easy mode
INoble KnightI2 votesAs long as you press Q while using W it will cast at the end. Easy mode for people with high ping.
Spaceman5pff1 votesAh.
RIP thinking when playing Alistar.
INoble KnightI4 votesI still fuck it up though lol
Arya Riven4 votesPlease do not join in on this unhealthy circlejerk. Every champion in League can cancel their basic attack animations and certain abilities/items. My first encounter with Animation cancelling was on Ashe and Twisted Fate champion tutorials when I was new to League. It is a standard technique and applies to every champion.
Arakadia3 votesCan every champion? It would seem a few don't have ani cancels. Maybe im wrong, but some like Cho seem too slow to cancel.
Automated Riven6 votesCho can cast both his q and w at the same time canceling the last part of his q animation. he can cancel his aa animations. and I believe he can completly cancel all of his animations using his ult. but I dont play cho so I dont know.
Mira Arya Enthe2 votesLiterally all champions can cancel AA animations, and probably about 90% of abilities can be cancelled at a minimum with flash(MINIMUM! Before somebody goes off "ugh but burning flash!")
Arakadia4 votesCanceling autos doesn't mean much when your autos don't hurt much. And like 2/3 the roster's autos don't hurt alot.
Mira Arya Enthe5 votesIrrelevant, all champions can do it whether their AAs hurt or not, which it what Riven is doing. Also mages take combos for granted, but all spells have longer animations for mages than you ever commonly see because they are moving or comboing abilities to followup. How many Syndra's complete their full Q animation before using their E(or moving)? On Malzahar(old, I don't play the new one) when I press EWQR it is all as one smooth combo, it doesn't make each animation finish before the next starts.
Arakadia4 votesIrrelevant, all champions can do it whether their AAs hurt or not,
It is relevant because a Riven auto hurts a lot more than a Xerath, Zac, or Maokai auto. She makes use of animation canceling much more. Its like saying that women had equal wealth opportunities in the 1800's because they could have jobs, even if they made much less money and had less choices.
Mira Arya Enthe4 votesAD champions get more out of basic attacks than AP/Tank champions? Who'd have thunk it! :OOOOOOOOOOO
The purpose of animation cancels and combos on both AAs AND abilities is to open up frames for additional actions and movement. It benefits everyone.
Arakadia2 votesIt benefits everyone.
Yeah. And in the 1800's everyone could get a job. Some just payed more than others purely based off gender.
PaffWasTaken3 votesIf riot dosen't want to change Something, it's either: -they don't know how to do it -they don't want to do it -They are too lazy atm because they actually did Something in the past 2 months -they privieliege to put the slightliest efforts in skins instead of other content, since that way they make more money -they are busy making thousands of publicity and promoting videos for any boring aspects of the LCS
vOmvbrawfU2 votesAnimation canceling is the reason Riven will stay garbo at high elo and noobstomp low elo.
TEA Nietzsche 2 votesI don't understand, could you elaborate? I'm pretty sure that animation cancelling doesn't help low elo Riven's.
Spaceman5pff1 votesAnimation cancelling helps low ELO EVERYBODY.
Kiting, AA resetting. etc.
