Lethality doesn't counter Armor; Armor counters Lethality

AlienPrimate··23 votes·21,926 views

TL;DR: The more armor you have the less lethality will affect you. The opposite can be said if you build no armor. Lower armor champions will get destroyed by lethality.

To understand how lethality works, you have to understand how armor works first. Armor becomes less effective as more of it is stacked. The equation for damage reduction for both Magic Resist and Armor is x/(x+100)

This is a table showing damage reduction from each value of armor by increments of 25 armor.

AR = armor DR = damage reduction %^ = percent change from the previous value

AR ------------ DR ---------------- %^ 0 ------------ 0.0% -------------- N/A 25 ---------- 20.0% ----------- 20 50 ---------- 33.3% ----------- 13.3 75 ---------- 42.9% ------------ 9.6 100 ------- 50.0% ------------ 7.1 125 -------- 55.6% ------------ 5.6 150 -------- 60.0% ----------- 4.4 175 --------- 63.6% ----------- 3.6 200 -------- 66.7% ----------- 3.1 225 -------- 69.2% ----------- 2.5 250 -------- 71.4% ------------ 2.2 275 -------- 73.3% ------------- 1.9 300 -------- 75.0% ------------ 1.7 325 -------- 76.5% ------------ 1.5 350 -------- 77.8% ------------ 1.3 375 --------- 78.9% ----------- 1.1 400 -------- 80.0% ----------- 1.1

To keep things simple I will describe how lethality works at level 18 because lethality scales by level. At level 18, 1 lethality is equal to 1 armor penetration which lowers the target's armor by 1. Items with lethality are:

item 3134 10 item 3814 15 item 3147 15 item 3142 20

With runes and masteries you can get:

Precision - 8.4 Marks - 14.4 Quints - 9.6

The highest lethality possible not stacking items is 82.4.

For the simplicity of not having to make more calculations, I will use 75 lethality as an example to use the chart above.

Most champions have between 75 and 100 base armor so with 9 armor seals many would have right at 100 at level 18. This means that building no armor, a lethality stacking assassin would lower the 100 armor to 25 armor changing 50% damage reduction to 20% damage reduction. This gives the assassin a 60% damage increase against said champion.

If you don't believe me here you go. Attack does 100 damage, 100 armor reduces that to 50 while 25 armor reduces that to 80.

80/50=1.6 If an attack does 50 damage and you get a mastery that increases their damage by 60% you multiply 50 by 1.6 to get 80.

A tank with 300 armor would be reduced to 225. 300 armor gives 75% damage reduction and 225 armor gives 69.2% damage reduction. With the logic above:

30.8/25 = 1.232 They gained 23.2% damage against the tank who already takes less damage than the squishy with 100 armor to begin with who is taking 60% more damage.

**In conclusion, armor not only makes you take less damage from physical attacks as everyone knows, but it also drastically lowers the effectiveness of lethality on top of the damage reduction. **

Edit: A few people have mentioned true damage so I thought I would mention that there is no such thing as doing true damage when reduced below 0 resistance. If someone is reduced to -30 resistance the formula for damage reduction becomes:

2-30/(100-30) = 57% damage increase. This damage is not dealt as true damage but rather as increased physical damage.

30 Comments

Critmaster Garen9 votes

only true when you look at lethality in a vaccum.

lethality stacked with % penetration turns an armor stacking tank into a piece of paper.

also, lethality will always affect you the same. the % damage reduction in the armor tooltip is misleading. it compares how much effective health your last point of armor gave you compared to your effective health all your other armor gives you. of course that number is going to shrink the more armor you already have.

the way armor works is, that each single point increases your effective health pool by 1%.

this means when you have 1000 health, and 100 armor, you have effectively 2000 health against physical damage.

no matter your armor value, if the enemy has 20 flat armor pen, it will always reduce that bonus by 20%. means in the example there, it would reduce your pool by 200 effecive health.

if you have 300 armor and 1000 health, youd have 4000 effective health and 20 lethality would still reduce your effective health by 200.

Backup4now2 votes

See, this person actually took the time to learn the maths. Armor only counters lethality in the sense that you need more lethality for more armor, just like you need more damage to kill someone with more health. Turning anything into % increase or reduction is always misleading.

AlienPrimate1 votes

Most extreme realistic example I could come up with:

Talon item 3142 item 3071 item 3036 item 3147 item 3814

410 AD 20% damage from mastery/LDR 30% armor reduction 45% bonus penetration 82 lethality

Taric item 3047 item 3075 item 3110 item 3068 item 3742 item 3143

83 base armor 645 bonus armor 727 total armor 12% auto reduction 3605 health

Taric armor after reduction

645 reduced to 355 for 438 armor after LDR 438 reduced to 306 after cleaver 306 reduced to 224 after lethality 224 armor = 69% damage reduction 410x1.2x0.88x0.31=134 damage from an auto attack for 3.7% Taric's total HP

Orianna with no armor or hp in items

68 Base armor 1861 health

68 reduced to 47.6 after cleaver (which wouldn't happen because talon would never get 5 stacks on her) 47.6 reduced to -34.4 -34.4 armor = 52.4% damage increase 410x1.05x1.524 = 664 damage from an auto attack for 36% of Orianna's total HP

This is another percentage, but Talon does 495% more damage to Orianna than Taric in this example and people say armor is worthless. Also note that Taric's auto attacks do 302 damage and his E does 434 damage before reduction with this build so he is still useful for damage. Most tanks are still able to do damage with pure armor builds so it doesn't hurt them too much by doing this.

6Sfool1 votes

I'd like to point a few things out. Armor penetration can never being effective armor below 0. Only reduction can do that. Also, cleaver applies before LW. Not sure how that factors in what armor is considered bonus, but you have that backwards on taric's reduction. Ninja Tabi's passive is not armor, it is an uncounterable damage reduction, whereas armor is highly counterable. And last, don't look at an auto as part of a champion's total hp if you're looking at armor in a vacuum. Health stacking is not armor stacking.

AlienPrimate1 votes

I would also like to point some things out. Lethality brought the armor below 0. It makes no difference on the end result which applies first between LW and cleaver. Ninja tabi wasn't reduced by anything, that is the 0.88 in the calculation for Talon's damage. Health has nothing to do with this post. The point was that even though Talon has the most armor shred he can possibly get, he will only do about 4% of Taric's total health in damage on an attack which is basically nothing. This whole post was to show the extreme polar opposites of low armor vs high armor against a full armor shred build. If you build full armor against an ad team you will take far less damage. I'm sick of seeing people say that armor doesn't matter with all the armor shred items. Armor will always be the best stat against AD because the fact that damage reduction can go negative and become damage amplification with enough lethality on the enemy.

If they didn't have the armor shred then building 6 armor items would be pointless as it gets weaker and weaker the more of it is stacked. Health or damage is a better option in that case.

6Sfool2 votes

Ok, you just defended a decent post that needed some revising with one that doesn't mean anything.

Ignoring the ninja tabi and dominick's health passives, which have nothing to do with armor, Taric has an 8.27 effective health multiplier. I'll start with the reduced armor values. 727 * .7 (cleaver) = 509 armor. I believe that base armor is static so 509 - 83 = 426 bonus armor. 426 * .55 = 234 bonus armor left after LDR, leaving 317 total armor. 317 - 82 lethality = 235 armor, and a 3.35 effective health multiplier. 3.35 / 8.27 = .4 Taric is only 40% as tanky as he would be if not for penetration. Sure, he is still more than 3x as tanky as he would be if he had 0 armor, but he devoted his entire build to armor and he could be more than 8x as tanky. His entire build is almost completely devalued. The counter to raw damage is armor, but the counter to armor is armor shred, which is extremely easy to build. Taric doesn't nullify any of talon's stats, but Talon nullifies more than half of Taric's. And considering that any amount of armor only slows damage dealt, damage which always wins over time is just sped up.

Orianna's is pretty simple. Lethality alone penetrates 100% of her armor (lethality can never make a target's armor effectively negative), so her effective health multiplier is 1 instead of 1.68. She is 60% as tanky as she would be without the arpen, and not a single bit of gold in her build is wasted.

The problem with armor penetration now is that it stacks so well with itself that it hurts supertanks more than it does squishies.

Also, armor does not get weaker as you stack more of it. That's a misconception that I thought you would know, seeing that you wrote a page-long post about it. The more armor you have, the more efficient building health is, but the stat itself does not get any weaker.

Twitch Chat3 votes

lethality on its own is not good vs heavily armored targets but when combined with a cleaver or LW item armor is not that effective

Aquafuge2 votes

I'm still a little foggy but at least i can say i have a basic understanding of the way it works now. Many Thanks.

AlienPrimate1 votes

Many welcomes. I like a better informed public.

MrHaZeYo2 votes

This needed to be posted?

AlienPrimate4 votes

It may seem obvious if you know the mechanics of the game, but I have seen people saying armor is worthless now because lethality just reduces it. These people either don't know the programming math of the game or are too salty about lethality to care about it.

MrHaZeYo4 votes

Usually people who say that are also adding in LDR and Cleaver with the Leathity which does in turn make armor useless.

LDR - 45% bonus, BC - 25% Overall - 3 Leathilty is 50 Armor reduction - Plus runes and masteries.

50000000000000002 votes

Lethality alone is pretty weak against a high armor target. However, lethality and %armor pen together makes it impossible to itemize against.

Omen462 votes

item 3033 what if i threw this into your math equation?

dunder kill2 votes

LW only targets BONUS Armor. It doesnt touch base

Omen461 votes

Perfect! Thanks, I was wondering about why it isn't a more popular pick.

Dynikus3 votes

There are plenty of people that don't know this and just think because it's armor pen, it counters armor.

Put simply, flat armor pen for low armor, percent pen for high armor.

MrHaZeYo1 votes

Those people need more experience and knowledge of the game then lol. It's a pretty simple idea to think with all 3 Leatity weaps you will efficiently cancel out a Sunfire/Deadman's bonus armor.

Dynikus1 votes

Those people need more experience and knowledge of the game then lol.

yes. That's what this thread was for, giving those players more knowledge of the game.

MrHaZeYo1 votes

Fair enough. I just feel like common sense should be common.

SarcasticShepard1 votes

It can't really be common if the info is poorly explained and tucked into a corner. The game may be popular, but it explains nothing well.

Dynikus1 votes

It doesn't really take much thought to realize if a person has low armor, flat penetration is going to be better than percent penetration, while if they have high armor, percent penetration is going to do a lot more than flat penetration.

Eedat2 votes

I made a post trying to describe how Lethality interacts with base armor, but everyone told me I was wrong lol

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/OgwjZY5O-something-people-dont-seem-to-be-grasping-about-armormagic-pen

WoonStruck2 votes

Lethality abuses a lack of armor, and counters single armor item purchases.

Stacking armor counters Lethality.

Stacking Lethality with %pen/reductions counters armor stacking.

6Sfool1 votes

I miss the days of last whisper being a very slot inefficient item that was only ever bought late game. Sucks to be an armor stacker now. Spend 3-4000 of your support gold on armor only to be instantly deleted by the exact champion you're counterbuilding.

Tusutaki2 votes

The only thing you're not including is the % armor pen from the likes of Black Cleaver and Last Whisper items which drastically increases the effectiveness of Lethality against armor.

For example, I play Lethal Garen. 24 Lethal from runes, 8 from masteries.

Thats 33 lethality and 25% armor shred from his E

I then get Ghost Blade and Black Cleaver.

53 Lethality and 55% armor pen. This is where if you dont have armor higher than 127, then I will be dealing true damage to you. Imagine all that damage and then included the 33% increase if the target is isolated for your E.

AlienPrimate1 votes

I just edited my post for you. Garen wouldn't do true damage. He does increased physical damage. The formula for the damage increase percentage is

2 - x/(100-x)

On the chart I gave, for every point that armor goes negative, the target takes increased damage the same way that it would normally reduce damage in the positives. If they have -25 armor, they would take 20% increased physical damage. This also means that Death's dance will benefit from your targets on lethal Garen being reduced below 0 armor.

Cocho1 votes

item 3071 when you throw that in with the 32 lethality from runes/masteries 20 from item 3142

It becomes apparent that you need alot of armor, which you're sacrificing damage for.

Also, what are they supposed to make lol item 3068 ? Jhin item 3026 Ahri item 3157

A little Peepo1 votes

So basically lethality=dead squishies, armor pen (lw) = dead tanks (not really dead but you get the gist) lethality is good on little armor and armor pen is better on high armor.

Maddmazz1 votes

So what would build as Rammus against MF who built 2 lethality items and a Black Cleaver along with a Yi who built BOTRK? I had a hard time itemizing against that. I built Sun fire, Thornmail & Tabi.

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