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What to build for max AP + CDR in 6.9?

Nameless Voice··2 votes·3,024 views

So, now that 6.9 is here, I still have the same problem as when I looked at the initial patch notes:

I have no idea what I'm supposed to buy if I just want to max CDR and AP on a mage mid (such as Karma), without necessarily building tanky.

I used to buy item 3165 + item 3174 for 40% CDR, but Athene's just doesn't look like something a midlaner wants any more. I'd considered buying two item 3165 , but the CDR has been made unique to stop that idea. There aren't really any other items that offer a lot of CDR. The only other one is item 3115 , which is quite slot efficient at 80 AP / 20% CDR, but has a lot of money spent on the attack speed that most mages don't want.

All other items only offer 10%. I suppose I could buy one of those item 3100 item 3001 item 3157 item 3060 and then get item 3158, but I don't like the significant loss of damage vs squishy targets from not getting item 3020 (especially on a low-ratio mage like Karma.)

It seems like we now have a lot more CDR randomly tacked onto items, but no actual path to prioritise CDR on its own any more.

18 Comments

REDREX72 votes

I keep seeing low ratios on Karma... What???? A 1.5 scaling ulti? A .9 ap ratio W. a 1.1 ulted shield??? Anyway that being said. Before the new mage itemization I would say get flat 10% cdr in runes and get Morello and lucidity boots was a must on Karma. Allowing her to get 45% cdr at level 7 or 9. Now I would say you can still do that except now potentially take out lucidity boots and get rocket belt. But if you are in an unfavorable match up (Which does not happen often for me) I would say take out Morello entirely and get Abyssal and Zhonyas and Roa or something. This is my two cents from a master Karma main. I have not tried Athenes yet on Karma mid so that may or may not change.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

but Athene's just doesn't look like something a midlaner wants any more.

(especially on a low-ratio mage like Karma.)

If any champion wants the New grail, it's Karma.

Her low ratios make it to were she is more used for the utility she provides at later points in the game. the New Grail compliments her Sona and Soraka more than any other champ in the game.

Nameless Voice1 votes

The part which gives more health or mana regen depending on which is higher certainly matches her (now somewhat lacking) theme of duality, but I can't quite see that the item itself is that great on her. I'm going to try it, for sure, but the actual mana regeneration has been reduced by a lot, the AP is down by a lot, and I don't think the occasional healing makes up for its losses in other areas, especially since she can't use it on herself.

Also, that's just Karma specifically. It doesn't answer my question with regards to any other mage who might want to max AP+CDR without building tanky (Lux comes to mind.)

ChaddyFantome1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nameless Voice,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=26lzQuO1,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-05-04T22:22:40.683+0000)

The part which gives more health or mana regen depending on which is higher certainly matches her (now somewhat lacking) theme of duality, but I can't quite see that the item itself is that great on her. I'm going to try it, for sure, but the actual mana regeneration has been reduced by a lot, the AP is down by a lot, and I don't think the occasional healing makes up for its losses in other areas, especially since she can't use it on herself.

Also, that's just Karma specifically. It doesn't answer my question with regards to any other mage who might want to max AP+CDR without building tanky (Lux comes to mind.)

Riot stated that grail is no longer supposed to fill that niche in the first place

It is now designed as a fallback to Utility/Support mages like karma Orianna and Lux so they can better transition into a more supporty role without feeling ike a straight up secondary support.

Riot is pretty much against mana regen Mid ;lane, or rather, against it as a precedent. They feel one needs to give up something for that mana regen since enough of it basically makes you resource-less, which is kinda stupid on high damage Magic dealers.

Part of me thinks this is to balance things Like Lulu in non support Roles.

Nameless Voice1 votes

Yes, I understand that - but it still doesn't answer what you're supposed to build if you want AP and CDR. I'm not really complaining that Grail isn't really useful on a primary damage-dealer any more, but rather that I can't figure out how to replace it in 40% (45%) CDR damage build.

Contrast ADC itemisation, where each important stat (damage, attack speed, crit) has several similar items that you can choose from depending on your needs. It seems that mages (who really want AP, CDR and mana) are forced to build Morello's (not that they weren't before), and now no longer have anything else to choose from instead, and because there's no other choice they can't opt into "more of the same" by buying a second item of the same type to focus on that stat.

Quepha2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nameless Voice,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=26lzQuO1,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2016-05-05T00:39:38.163+0000)

Yes, I understand that - but it still doesn't answer what you're supposed to build if you want AP and CDR.

If you want to cap your cdr while maximizing damage potential...

Void and Rabadon's are a given for maximizing damage potential, Morellonomicon is the best combination of AP and cdr so that's probably earning a spot and gets us up to 20% cdr. What are ALL the reasonable options for cdr after that point?

Nashor's at 20% Athene's at 20% FQC at 10% Lich Bane at 10% Boots at 10% Dash belt at 10% Abyssal at 10% Zhonya's at 10%

If you like to auto attack a lot then Nashor's is a given and you're done.

If you plan on attacking tanks more than squishies, then you can stand to give up the flat pen from sorc's If you can easily weave an auto into your combos then Lich Bane is a good choice and will add a lot of damage

After that you seem to be forced to give up a little damage potential for utility in addition to your cdr. Pick one or two out of HP+a dash, spooky ghost active, armor + stasis to block an all-in combo or follow up an initiate, or MR to counter an enemy AP. If you aren't willing to trade damage potential for utility then you can set up a rune page with cdr runes to cover the difference while you go raw damage with seraph's, sorc boots, RoA, or whatever.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nameless Voice,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=26lzQuO1,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2016-05-05T00:39:38.163+0000)

Yes, I understand that - but it still doesn't answer what you're supposed to build if you want AP and CDR. I'm not really complaining that Grail isn't really useful on a primary damage-dealer any more, but rather that I can't figure out how to replace it in 40% (45%) CDR damage build.

Contrast ADC itemisation, where each important stat (damage, attack speed, crit) has several similar items that you can choose from depending on your needs. It seems that mages (who really want AP, CDR and mana) are forced to build Morello's (not that they weren't before), and now no longer have anything else to choose from instead, and because there's no other choice they can't opt into "more of the same" by buying a second item of the same type to focus on that stat.

Rocket Belt.item 3152

Paroe1 votes

Doesnt athenes proc on barrier summoner spell?

Nameless Voice1 votes

I can't imagine so, since it only applies to healing and shields on allies, and Barrier only works on yourself.

(A better question is if it applies to the ally portion of Heal.)

EndlessSorcerer1 votes

Morellonomicon + 20% CDR Runes

Nameless Voice1 votes

CDR reds and yellows are very, very inefficient, plus losing the mpen reds would hurt damage a fair bit.

Could theoretically get 10% quite easily by using some of the glyphs and quints though (replacing the standard AP ones that most mages take), and add one of the 10% CDR items on top of that.

EndlessSorcerer1 votes

Who said anything about CDR Marks and Seals? Those are bloody worthless.

You can get 20% CDR with Scaling CDR Glyphs and 1 Scaling CDR Quint.

That's all you need.

Nameless Voice1 votes

I'm not convinced about the usefulness of CDR-per-level runes, since they only reach parity with the flat ones at level 10, leaving you weaker for a large portion of the game.

Not that you'd be getting 40% CDR from items before level 10 even before this patch, but it's it's generally considered better to use runes that affect your early game more.

EndlessSorcerer1 votes

Maybe, but Scaling CDR runes are more slot effective and many mages don't really have the mana pool to support spamming their abilities early in the game anyways.

By the time you hit level 10, you generally have your mana sustain item finished and you can actually make good use of your CDR in a sustained fight without going OOM.

Lauricella31 votes

item 3165 item 3157 + 6 * cdr per lvl blues

Quepha1 votes

Karma probably still builds Morello into Athene's even in the mid lane. She's one of the few champions with a reliable, low-cooldown shield that also deals a ton of damage over a fight. Even if it costs you some damage potential as a mid laner, that sustain is huge for your team and you should be picking Karma mid when you're planning to teamfight.

Automatis1 votes

Adding on to what others have said

item 3165 item 3157 item 3040 +6 cdr/lvl glyphs (+3 mr blues)

Gives you 40-45% cdr (depending on masteries), enough mana to never worry, and defensive options.

ForgiveColour1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nameless Voice,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=26lzQuO1,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-05-04T22:09:41.491+0000)

I used to buy item 3165 + item 3174 for 40% CDR, but Athene's just doesn't look like something a midlaner wants any more.

Holy shit why are people like you even allow to post about gameplay and le balance

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