A really high ban rate is a sign of serious champion health problems

Nameless Voice··151 votes·10,359 views

Any time that a champion has an insanely high ban rate (certainly anything over 40-50%), it's a clear sign that there's something very wrong about that champion.

No one wants to play against them or to play the game with them in it. Either that's because they are vastly overpowered, they are absolutely no fun to play against, or they have too many extremely binary matchups (e.g. hard-counter many champions, get wrecked by others) - or often all three of those things at once.

People like to talk about win rates and the importance of balance, but really, that's only part of it. The problem with being overpowered (and performing too well) is fairly obvious. When people absolutely don't want to play against a champion because they are simply not fun to play against, it is probably more likely to drive players away from the game entirely if champions like that are reasonably popular. When a champion has extremely binary hard-counter matchups, then it can warp the entire shape of the game and which champions can be picked ("I want to play X, but they haven't picked yet and might pick Y, so now I have to play Z just in case.")

Any of the above three problems are major issues with a champion that need to be urgently addressed. Why aren't these champions Riot's top priority? Instead, they often get left alone for patch after patch, with no or only minor changes.

It's not fair for the people who want to play a fun game without it being warped by the presence of those champions, and it's not fair on the people who actually want to play those champions, since they are always banned and thus can never be played.

184 Comments

Slamurai Jack14 votes

Yasuo is stronger now than he was at the end of season 4. Banrate then? 90%. Banrate now? 4%. Winrate then? 45%. Winrate now? 50.5%. Clearly, banrate is not an accurate indicator of power.

Slamurai Jack14 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=idiwEtr8,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-05-18T00:06:45.968+0000)

Yasuo is stronger now than he was at the end of season 4. Banrate then? 90%. Banrate now? 4%. Winrate then? 45%. Winrate now? 50.5%. Clearly, banrate is not an accurate indicator of power.

Oh, I did. It's just the fact that he's not banned now but was before makes no sense because he's literally the same champion, only stronger. What changed about Yasuo's kit to make him less unfun to play against? Nothing. He's literally the same champion, just 1 that the community collectively got over. Is Zed really any different right now? I doubt it. Ban rate means nothing more than what the community has collectively decided to QQ about for the next weeks and nothing more. Sometimes the champs they decide to QQ about are indeed OP. Sometimes they aren't. But a super high banrate is, on it's own, indicative of nothing more than negative community perception of a champ at that moment in time.

ValyrianBlade53 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=idiwEtr8,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2016-05-18T00:43:01.834+0000)

Oh, I did. It's just the fact that he's not banned now but was before makes no sense because he's literally the same champion, only stronger. What changed about Yasuo's kit to make him less unfun to play against? Nothing. He's literally the same champion, just 1 that the community collectively got over. Is Zed really any different right now? I doubt it. Ban rate means nothing more than what the community has collectively decided to QQ about for the next weeks and nothing more. Sometimes the champs they decide to QQ about are indeed OP. Sometimes they aren't. But a super high banrate is, on it's own, indicative of nothing more than negative community perception of a champ at that moment in time.

Or the community started banning other champions because there are worse offenders now.

I'd still love to ban Yasuo, I HATE his identity as a champion. He invalidates ranged champions. It's absurd that I can't siege a tower because he throws a wind wall in front of it and runs away. I'd rather ban about 12 other champions above him now though, because the state of balance is so absurd that I can't afford the luxury of banning champions I simply dislike.

Nameless Voice41 votes

This. So many times this.

If I have a choice, I'd ban Yasuo, but even if I don't, there's only a ~10% chance that he's picked. If I don't ban Zed, he's nearly guaranteed to be picked, so I have to make sure to use my ban on him first. It's a matter of probabilities.

D2Vincent17 votes

coughFizzcough god I hate this fish. The moment someone gets a carnival themed skin, I'm going to lobby to have them taunt fizz and threaten to Deep fry this little [REDACTED] and sell him at the concession stands.

Lauchmelder3 votes

Play an "unskilled noob champ" into him. Annie works well. He wants to go in, you roast him.

HarrisonOwns14 votes

Implying that Annie isn't still a problem offender, too...

10Tickler3 votes

Annie's mostly been a problem bot, as a Pseudo-support.

Faceroll Tactics2 votes

Just like all the other "supports" - mainly Sona mains that build frost queens then Full AP and no sight stone because who needs vision when the support can one shot them as soon as they show up on their screen?

Xenos111116 votes

Even worse now that item 3140 doesn't even cleanse his ult..

Joquan4 votes

Time to show the world my secret pocket pick garen mid babyyy

Knoyle3 votes

Honestly I see Less of him than I do

Ekko Yasuo Jinx Lucian Graves Annie Veigar Shaco Brand

I assume the only reason I don't see Zed Malzahar more is because they are Banned 99.9% of the time.

Honestly this mage update kind of Makes Fizz look like He isn't even strong considering how little I see him used compared to other mids.

RIPSyndra

Dessem2 votes

I remember some Syndra main at the Master level made a post about how broken OP Syndra would be, but the patch's hit and still no one plays Syndra.

In fact, everyone's mostly continued playing the same champions, and with the exception of Malzahar and Brand hitting the Rift/bans more often now, little's changed.

Ekko's still one of the best top lane picks, Yasuo goes in top or mid, Lucian is picked every game, Graves jungle and Graves top are super viable and Zed is still forever banned.

Have at ye1 votes

Syndra has a harder time building her CDR now with the increased cost of item 3165 , and it has less CDR in the buildpath. After that if you don't build the 3800 gold item 3089 then you are stuck with not a lot of AP when you'll probably need item 3135 .

Syndra's passive changes mean you want to max W second to potentiate her ult, so she loses a bit of overall damage in the midgame that you would get from the higher base damage on E, you don't get the E cooldown lowered to throw out more stuns/self peel from people with dashes.

Basically the benefits are they made her ult easier to use when W is maxed and her waveclear marginally better with Q, neither of which were particularly significant problems when people play Syndra .

SpecterVonBaren5 votes

sigh I miss early/mid Season 5 when everyone would ban Sejuani and Gragas and then whatever they didn't want to deal with in the game and then picked one of a several viable champs for their role. Then the Juggernaut patch came....

Keevalroy4 votes

Early and very late season 5 is what most people who complain about it remember, ignoring the pre-juggernaut patches where Cinderhulk and Gromp buff didn't kill you in seconds, and where Grag and Sej were the only major issues. They forget that once they were banned, just about every champion was viable, creating the healthiest and most balanced state League has been in. Really the only people who pissed and moaned about it were the assassin mains who were so used to 1v5 diving, getting a kill, and poofing out to safety, that they couldn't adapt to actually having to think about their engages.

Spicy Rice1 votes

And the way I see it, people are jacking off to their nostalgia goggles of the tank meta, which was honestly just seiging teams staring at each other till one was stupid enough to engage.

Keevalroy1 votes

Yasuo main, not even a little surprised.

Spicy Rice1 votes

And I also play velkoz, and veigar, and victor, and Shri, and Darius, and gnar etc. just because I'm a yasuo main, don't pigeonhole me into your stupid assumptions

Guy Fox Teemo2 votes

Thats not true actually though according to statistics Yasuo has a 20% pick rate vs Zes 10%.

So you're wrong :l

Nameless Voice1 votes

Oh, right, 10% mid, 10% top.

Guy Fox Teemo1 votes

Heres the exact stats:

Play Rate Yasuo Top: 8.99% Yasuo Mid: 9.77%

Zed Mid: 8.44% Zed Top: .9%


By the looks of it Zed doesn't even beat Yasuo in pick rate top lane vs Zeds mid pick rate.

~1/10 games you will see a Zed if you dont' ban him, ~2/10 games you will see a Yasuo if not banned. Yasuo also has a higher average win rate, it being around 51% and Zeds being around 50%


Win Rate Yasuo Top: 51.74% Yasuo Mid: 49.92%

Zed Top: Not picked enough so no stats for win rate. Zed Mid: 50.37%

Overall Yasuo is very much out performing Zed, 2% higher win rate and double the play rate

Nameless Voice3 votes

Zed has such a low pick rate because he has an almost 80% ban rate.

That makes his pick-rate in games where he isn't banned close to 50%.

Guy Fox Teemo2 votes

That is one of the dumbest statements I've heard. Pick rate is based off the % of games they're in when not banned. So if zed isn't banned you'll have a 9% chance to have him in your game

Nameless Voice2 votes

Why would it be? One statistic is for the percentage of games where that champion is banned, the other is for the percentage of games where they are picked.

Champions' play rates actually go down significantly when they are considered top pick/ban as their ban rate rises.

Try playing ten games without Zed banned and tell me if you only see him picked in one of those...

SpongebobIsLife7 votes

People heavily exaggerate the state of balance right now. The only pick or ban champion that exists right now is ekko imo. Raka is now countered by 800g, yes qss no longer works on zed ulti but his skill cap is still the same it's always been, malzahar doesnt clear the jungle as effeciently anymore.

Kindred is debatable, but besides ekko and kindred, i honestly don't think there are really any pick or ban champions.

Cosnirak6 votes

Alistar

SpongebobIsLife1 votes

not really. While he is strong, he is very predictable.

Odinakos5 votes

Predictable or not, his QW combo is quite strong. Having a mini malph ult at lvl 2 is not the greatest thing for his enemies. His has very strong all-in, peel, roaming along with the best towerdiving of all supports. All of that while he can press R to become a massive tank.

I dont have problem being strong somewhere (like leona with allins or better nerf Janna with peels) but having few weaknesses and many strong points is not healthy.

And i say this while any cow nerfs hurt me a lot, since he is the only melee support i feel comfortable with.

Earth on Tilt1 votes

{quoted}

Predictable or not, his QW combo is quite strong. Having a mini malph ult at lvl 2 is not the greatest thing for his enemies. His has very strong all-in, peel, roaming along with the best towerdiving of all supports. All of that while he can press R to become a massive tank.

I dont have problem being strong somewhere (like leona with allins or better nerf Janna with peels) but having few weaknesses and many strong points is not healthy.

And i say this while any cow nerfs hurt me a lot, since he is the only melee support i feel comfortable with.

Try malphite support.

Odinakos1 votes

Heh sounds a fun idea, but i feel he is not gonna have strong lane presence pre6 and is gonna suffer from range support poking. Especially now that new mages are gonna be kinda popular (already picked Zyra). Also does not have the roaming potential of the cow. Early gangs mid are the best!

Nevertheless i think he worth a couple tries. Especially with aoe like MF or Ori.

Earth on Tilt1 votes

I’m a low elo player, but malphite has always been a champ I play well with. I actually beat the cow with malphite. Leona is tough. Early game is tough, however, when you build pure tank(counter enemy champs) your late game is insane. I remember having some streaks where I would have 6-7 games without dying and have insane assist scores. Ashe/Malphite(Ult combo), Varus/Malphite(Ult combo), Lucian/Malphite(Lucian has strong lane presence), Jhin/Malphite(Strong lane presence), those are some of my favorites. Caitlyn would be good too for malphite. Malphite’s q is strong against caitlyn so punish her.

I always build ancient coin for the mana regen and because the final build gives 10% Cd and 200 HP. His ult is just too fun.

manbearswine5 votes

{quoted}

Kindred is debatable,

Are you fucking kidding me?

HarrisonOwns8 votes

Look at his match history. He gets off on playing OP trash champions.

Zed, Lucian, Fizz, etc.

SpongebobIsLife3 votes

Yes? The dude is constantly getting nerfs and they aren't as strong early as they once were. Yes kindred is strong but i honestly think their early game is on the level of lee sin atm.

chipndip14 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=idiwEtr8,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2016-05-18T00:43:01.834+0000)

Oh, I did. It's just the fact that he's not banned now but was before makes no sense because he's literally the same champion, only stronger. What changed about Yasuo's kit to make him less unfun to play against? Nothing. He's literally the same champion, just 1 that the community collectively got over. Is Zed really any different right now? I doubt it. Ban rate means nothing more than what the community has collectively decided to QQ about for the next weeks and nothing more. Sometimes the champs they decide to QQ about are indeed OP. Sometimes they aren't. But a super high banrate is, on it's own, indicative of nothing more than negative community perception of a champ at that moment in time.

Something I've been trying to get across in my "Stop banning Zed already" thread to no avail. People bypass statistics and logic with feelings and butthurt. How do you argue with facts when people Donald Trump you and ignore it?

MrWasjig7 votes

Simply put, people don't like playing against Zed. He is not enjoyable to play against (my opinion right there, but the general consensus seems to be similar).

Personally I hate playing against Illaoi. Sure her win-rates are pretty sad (and have dropped further in 6.9) but that doesn't stop her being a pain and unfun to deal with.

People just don't like dealing with particular champions, and it's just the case that there's a large number that don't like dealing with Zed. It's as simple as that. It doesn't make you any less wrong to argue the statistics since you can't argue with numbers.

HarrisonOwns3 votes

Exactly, Illaoi may not win games, or even be any good; but she's so annoying and unfun to play with that I would prefer she not even exist.

mason water6 votes

you know what happens when someone hates a certain champ to no end and they get to LANE AGAINST THEM? they tilt off the face of the fucking universe and feed to oblivion, thats why people ban champs that they dont like to play against.

SonaTitsAndAss6 votes

while good logic, picks and bans change. yi with sated? in bronze op. in diamond no one cared was a free win

Dreadlocks15 votes

Well that's not true lol.. I'd say he was less popular but Def still a strong pick in even dia+

SonaTitsAndAss5 votes

no. enemy team picks kindread/nidalee/anything with early pressure. instant end. done gg

Dreadlocks9 votes

Def isn't easy, but isn't a free win. Yi was still strong even when used by those who didn't play him much

manbearswine2 votes

[{quoted}](name=One Crit Man,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=idiwEtr8,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2016-05-17T21:01:23.335+0000)

no. enemy team picks kindread/nidalee

Rather hard to pick something which is banned.

SonaTitsAndAss1 votes

the is like 20 early game junglers those where examples

manbearswine2 votes

[{quoted}](name=One Crit Man,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=idiwEtr8,comment-id=00000000000000020000,timestamp=2016-05-18T09:29:55.302+0000)

the is like 20 early game junglers those where examples

The thing is that those "20 early game junglers" can be handled while yi tries to farm, nida and kindred are two very specific, very retarded champions who actually can not be handled while he farms(lee can also do this, but most people aren't good at him enough for it).

SonaTitsAndAss1 votes

i cba low elos will find any excuse

manbearswine1 votes

[{quoted}](name=One Crit Man,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=idiwEtr8,comment-id=0000000000000002000000000000,timestamp=2016-05-18T09:49:37.810+0000)

i cba low elos will find any excuse

I'm confused, what excuses are you making exactly?

SonaTitsAndAss1 votes

low elos "yi is op" people with brains "just pick something early yi is complete and utter shit without sated" low elos "no he is just to op" sated gets removed everyone "yi is absolute shit" high elos "we fucking told you..." like in low elos yi is shit now cause he cant get sated... he was always this weak in my elo because he couldnt get sated

GayFluffyUnicorn2 votes

So why exactly did u abuse master yi with a 77% win ratio? If he wasn't op or broken with devourer/rageblade---> tank? You are plat 2 stop talking as if you were high elo lol xD

More from Gameplay

More by Nameless Voice