In all honesty, Zac really does have too much reliable CC in his kit.

Ralanr··22 votes·1,020 views

So I just had the pleasure of dealing with a Zac who decided to camp my lane. Now as some of you may know, I'm a bronze 1 player and I was playing a champion I'm not very good with (Kled) who is also someone that junglers would love to gank because of how aggressive he plays.

So while I won't deny I have some salt in this post, I'm going to try and make it less about salt over Zac giving his buddy DrMundo a helping hand because bot lane didn't need his help and more about how Zac isn't as reliable on his E for ganks as he should.

What do I mean by this? Simply put, Zac used to be punished in his ganks if he failed to miss his E. Sure his old Q could slow you afterwards, but that's another problem in his kit all together. Now however you can flash out of Zac's E and he can still grab you by slapping a minion with his Q first and then proceeds to make you kiss it while you can't escape because of how auto attacks work.

This is already incredibly frustrating in bot lane because he could also just grab your support and get a 2 for 1 deal at Twitchy's pizzaria.

Now I understand why Zac's old Q was replaced, that being it didn't really do anything worth while. It slowed, but if Zac was using it for the CC then he already lost. He maxed it last so he never really used it for jungle clears because another button to press while E and W were on cooldown. His old Q was just there, and his new Q just overloads him with too much hard CC.

Wanna know what ability I think really should have been changed with Zac's kit? His W.

> **Unstable Matter:**ACTIVE: Zac's body explodes outward, dealing magic damage to all nearby enemies (capped against minions and monsters) and becoming Ghost ghosted for 5 seconds against monsters hit. 「 MAGIC DAMAGE: 15 / 30 / 45 / 60 / 75 (+ 4 / 5 / 6 / 7 / 8% (+ 2% per 100 AP) of target's maximum health) 」 Unstable Matter's cooldown is reduced by 1 second every time Zac picks up a Cell Division.png Cell Division chunk.

You cannot dodge this ability. All Zac needs to be is close enough to you and you will take up to 75+8% of your max health in magic damage. Is this a lot of damage? Not so much anymore imo, but that's not the problem. The problem is that this is the ability Zac maxes second for jungle clear and it's why his old Q wasn't really seen as important. He had two AoE clearing abilities on low cooldown when he only needed one.

So instead, Riot decides to change his Q (because to be fair, it wasn't really useful compared to the rest of his kit) from an AoE slow ability to a double single target CC ability that unfortunately ends up taking a lot of power from his kit (You'd think it's his E, but his E hasn't changed much as all since his creation. Hell it got worse since it gives a landing zone now. It's his bread and butter ability) because it makes it harder and harder to actually outplay Zac.

IMO Zac is basically becoming the Yasuo of tanks in that you don't outplay him, he outplays himself.

Some people have suggested numerous changes for Zac, like having him stun himself if he misses his E. Honestly what I believe Riot should do is bring back his old Q and change his W's damage pattern to something people can play around instead of just destroying the puddles to reduce his healing.

Reliable %max health damage on tanks is not good. With it being their most powerful dueling spells in top lane, they should have counterplay to work around for their opponents.

Imo Sion and Sejuani do this well because of the conditions their %max health damage has. Galio is kinda iffy but I give him a pass because it's his only real damage ability.

And while I'm glad they made it so Maokai actually has to be smart about using his saplings to get that %max health damage to pay off instead of the old W %max health damage, I cannot say I'm a fan of this champion in general.

And for gods sake Riot, have you even tried just putting all of Poppy's %max health damage on the shockwave of her Q? First hit doing 8% of your max health means that she's automatically getting 8% of your max health (or whatever isn't negated by your armor in lane) whenever trades happen. Making it so the shockwave does 16% of your max health better rewards Poppy for landing wallstuns and smarter placement of her Q while it allows squishy kiting champions to avoid most of her damage.

#Peace.

30 Comments

Big Lincoln5 votes

been saying this for ages, you can't balance zac with what he has right now

also

>sejuani >counterplay

good chuckle

Ralanr2 votes

Eh, I don't like how Sejuani's stun works but it does require 4 stacks so it's not like you don't see it coming. It has a condition that must be addressed, which allows for some counterplay (and there's a cooldown between targets so she can't do it to the same person repeatedly).

Miror B3 votes

Zac also dies super easily as all of his abilities cost quite a bit of hp to use, especially early game where he doesn't have all of the regen. It's why things like grievous wounds and %hp damage work so well against him, especially in tandem.

Limrick3 votes

Quite a bit? He GAINS health from using abilities if he grabs the blobs. Zac is a tank with really good sustain, he is never "easy to kill", unless you're a full buil Kog'Maw or Vayne.

DuskDaUmbreon1 votes

I'm just gonna say that it costs him about the same amount that he regains to use it in just about any situation against one enemy champion. His healing only really becomes actual healing in late game.

50000000000000001 votes

His spell costs are based on %currentHP, while the regen is based on %maxHP. Even early on, his passive provides him a lot of sustain during jungling.

NineTailedMystic1 votes

Health costs virtually never matter short of Vlad W.

DuskDaUmbreon1 votes

Soraka would like to disagree. You can very easily heal yourself down to 12 hp with her.

NekoniClaws2 votes

Needs more upvotes

Here's a video of Sneaky agreeing with you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwPYMOT9wmU

Dominick Destine2 votes

Upvoted for opening the post with an admission of bracket status.

Hexs Fortune2 votes

They need to lower his dmg vs champs. Let him be a cc bot all he likes.

50000000000000001 votes

3 CC on tanks is pretty standard, so I'd be inclined to agree. Reliable %HP damage is usually the real issue. Moving %HP damage from W to E might have some potential.

Limrick1 votes

His Q needs changes. They added an indicator for his dash, so I'm cool with that, but then he Qs a fucking minion and just autos you and boom, you're still CC'd. Not to mention that he only has displacements, so Tenacity does nothing at all to stop him.

KuroCaliber1 votes

Easy, just make it so that champions only get displaced if the stretchy part hits a champion. That way it's either 1st hit: champion 2nd hit: minion = Pulled together

1st hit: minion 2nd hit: champion = You aren't pulled, pulls minion towards you

And

1st hit: champion 2nd hit: champion = Pulled together

Works normally against jg minions.

Limrick1 votes

I like that.

KoKoboto1 votes

Wait you're bronze 1?

HAH NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOB

Changed Q over W because W enables his blob pick up game play. We see similar gameplay with Katarina and Draven and a lot of those players like this skill mechanic. If we're not making a lot of changes W shouldn't be changed much. If we're doing a complete overhaul go for it. Q was the right choice when it came down to "what ability we outta change". Whether the change is good or not is whatever but Q was gonna be changed. Personally I think the ability is really cool.

I say if anything we revert the stun duration on his E back to 0.5s. We only had like what? A week to test out the new Zac? Zac was a simple champion overall and got two insanely complex mechanics added to his kit, resulting in the low win rate. I feel that buff was just a knee jerk reaction and we should've spent more time testing it out.

Ralanr1 votes

Except all of his abilities drop blobs when hitting an enemy champion.

KoKoboto1 votes

W has the lowest cooldown and the cooldown is reduced when you pick up blobs. The simplicity behind the ability means you're mostly thinking about using it and picking up the blob after. If you replaced the ability with something else with a longer cooldown and different mechanic you would cut Zac healing by a ton.

Ralanr1 votes

Or move his blob spawning and healing mechanic to his passive on top of the revive.

Or hey, reduce the cooldown of his old Q.

KoKoboto2 votes

His blob spawning and healing mechanic are already on his passive.

I think new Q is better than old Q in all ways. More interactive and way more thought in the ability. I think they should revert the E buff and maybe revert all other nerfs they did on him.

Next I think they should have his R scale with his size because I'm pretty sure it doesn't right now. Also how about letting his landing position knock up enemies. Though these buffs should only come in after sufficient play time.

KoKoboto1 votes

Also consider other champions:

Lee Sin goes to gank. Misses Q but still ward hops to you and kicks you back or something. Sejuani misses Q but still hits you with an ult or gets W instead and gets the stun. Gragas misses E but barrels you and ults you. Skarner misses E but runs at you and kidnaps you. Hecarim misses E but ults over to you. Vi misses Q but still ends up ulting you. Diana misses Q but just ults and Es you.

I think the only ridiculous part of Zac is that he gets E->R for free. E, a 1800 range ability that has a base CD of 12s. A lot of champions still got ways too reliably catch you if they miss a part of their kit. If they didn't they'd be garbage. Diver missed one ability while diving? Well you're COMPLETELY out of commission and are just walking around in the middle of their team with your strongest ability on CD.

Ralanr1 votes

So most of those seem to require using their ult to make up for missing, which is a fair trade off considering how long ult cooldowns can be.

KoKoboto1 votes

Yeah and they usually end up in guaranteed kills, whereas Zac just tugs you back and that is only if you're still close enough to the target he hit Q on.

E->R is the worst thing.

Noblewind1 votes

IMO he needs 1 of 2 things done to him to make him fair and balanced again:

  1. Revert part of the E range buff he received before his rework. The range is super far and synergizes too well with the new Q as everyone has said.

  2. This is what I would do: Reduce either the radius of Q for second auto, OR amount of time it sticks to the first target, so that people hit by it can actually escape it. This ability is simply far too reliable, and does not really add the skill expression it was intended to add to playing Zac

TricolorStar1 votes

Zac didn't need a full rework, end of discussion. He was fine the way he was, but now he is the most frustrating jungler to play against

DuskDaUmbreon2 votes

He was most definitely not fine the way he was. His Q wasn't maxed last because it was "just some utility that I only need to engage or disengage with, so I can very much afford to max it last, enabling me to get more power from my other, more damaging abilities sooner", similar to how Diana maxes her E last, it was maxed last because it was all but useless.

Ralanr1 votes

Exactly. There was no real choice in his max pattern.

Now with most champions this is kinda ok, but his old Q just didn't offer much of anything.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

[slayer-pantheon-popcorn] Funny how most here was saying he was garbage with his new Q and he wouldn't change even with fix & buff [slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

teegorom1 votes

tl;dr

Ralanr1 votes

No.

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