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Increase Marksman diversity by lowering the emphasis on auto attacks.

Done25··5 votes·1,748 views

One of the long running problems with Marksmen is that by end game most of them turn into "click and win", especially if they got snowballed into hyper carry status and manage to get 40%+ crit.

Rather than focus on the "crit to win" aspects, wouldn't it be healthier to focus on their abilities instead? Because once they get BT, IE, and PD most of them become nothing more than right clickers as using non-AA abilities actually has the potential to LOWER their DPS.

Well designed (in my opinion) Marksmen.

Tristana: A siege expert who blows up towers one after the other. Her gameplay revolves around the Explosive Charge ability.

Vayne: Her short range, CC w/terrain, and bursts of invisibility makes her into a powerful hit an run assassin who loves the dark/cramped confines of the jungle. She's great at hunting down isolated targets thanks to her "Silver Bolts" and "Night Hunter" passives.

Kog'Maw: Long range HP% autoattacks allow him to melt through the normally beefy front lines, and his abilities are great for poking down people clustered around a tower.

Lucian: Properly weaving his passive in between abilities gives him extreme mobility. His ult increases this even further by allowing him to both attack and chase after/evade his opponent at the same time.

Graves: Buckshot buckshot buckshot. Nothing more fun than jumping up into someone's face and then blasting it off with your Q. Creates dynamic decision by making you choose between safety and damage.

Twitch: A sneaky little rat that rewards people who are good at building up his Deadly Venom.

Miss Fortune: Kit revolves around Impure Shots. Though I feel that perhaps "Make It Rain" should be rebalanced to apply/benefit from it as well. (Lower base with higher potential at max stacks)

Caitlyn: Rewards the player for staying in bushes and laying traps that leave her enemy helpless. I think "90 Caliber Net" might be a bit overkill in the safety department and could be replaced with a less "melee hate" ability.

Ashe: Revolves around Frost Shots and Ranger's Focus. Still a bit bland, but much better than she was pre-rework.

Draven: Focuses on keeping up his "Spinning Axe" stacks and catching them so he can re-activate "Bloodrush".

Kalista: Rend is a great mechanic and she has a very cohesive kit. Her only problem was how ridiculously hard her passive dashes spat on the face of slower melee characters. Since then she got a few nerfs that brought her in line.

Sivir: THE AoE champion. She has been through some tough times, and a rework, but her use of "Boomerang Blade", "Ricochet", and "On the Hunt" give her a very unique niche as a heavily team fight centered Marksmen.

Ezreal - I rather like the way his kit is very ability use heavy. To the point where AP Ezreal is a possible tactic. Even if the champion himself infuriates me to no end. D:<

Less well made:

Jinx: Her Q is focused on auto attacks, but does so in a way that rewards her for taking risks by making stacks fall off quickly. "Zap!" is also quite powerful. Though, like Jinx herself, the kit lacks somewhat cohesion as a whole.

Quinn: Her own self isn't that bad, but Valor is a bit lackluster. She lacks the survivability and sheer damage melee carries like Yi or AD Udyr have. They were going to buff Valor at one point by making it a low CD toggle, but nothing came of it.

Bad:

Varus: His passive is only good if you're strong enough to kill your opponents. He's supposed to revolve around detonating Blight packs, but lacks the ability to easily spread them with his low attack speed AND he lacks the ability to repeatedly activate them with his long CDs.

Corki: His kit is all over the place. Passive does True Damage just because. Q+W are magic based AoE attacks. His E has potential to be interesting, but it's only helpful if you're winning. (Because he has to face away to run.) His R is undoubtedly his most unique skill.

47 Comments

UltraSceptile4 votes

The whole point of adcs is to push towers and deal sustained damage in teamfights. Stuff like varus (whose kit wasn't emphasized on autoes alone) simply wasn't played because of that, until they started playing him mid, as an ad caster.

If riot did this they would have to change literally every single adc, and i don't think they will.

Done251 votes

{quoted}

The whole point of adcs is to push towers and deal sustained damage in teamfights. Stuff like varus (whose kit wasn't emphasized on autoes alone) simply wasn't played because of that, until they started playing him mid, as an ad caster.

If riot did this they would have to change literally every single adc, and i don't think they will.

They can't crit towers so it wouldn't affect them very much. If anything, a higher reliance on attack damage, and maybe some more attack speed, would make them BETTER at taking towers.

And yea, I think Varus needs some help. Badly. His kit is just...bleh. He's certainly no Vayne.

I think it's mostly Crit that's to blame for why they all play the same at 40 min.

Knight SoIaire 2 votes

yeah but the push down towers part shouldnt be allowed to happen

this makes adc's basicaly kings of the game ... since there is no way of sieging a tower without them

thats a big flaw of the gameplay that adc's are basicaly the only reliable way of pushing the game forward

Done251 votes

Which is why 99% of all serious games have a Marksman at bottom with a supporting character who's there to hold their hand and spoon feed them gold exclusively. They are the MVP, and everyone else is a backup dancer.

OperationDEEZ13 votes

Ezreal ? Also, you realize you just said that Kalista was well designed right? XD

Done252 votes

{quoted}

Ezreal ? Also, you realize you just said that Kalista was well designed right? XD

I never said she was well BALANCED. :P

And whoops, forgot poor Ezreal. And Twitch. (But he was invisible during roll call, so that's his fault.)

But other than that, what's your opinion on the idea that relying so heavily on their basic attacks make Marksmen feel "sameish"? Especially once they reach the end game where it becomes all about landing those crits.

Nilok1 votes

Well designed is to be heathy, while balanced is to be fair.

With her recent nerfs I feel she is more fair, but she is still not healthy.

Done251 votes

{quoted}

Well designed is to be heathy, while balanced is to be fair.

With her recent nerfs I feel she is more fair, but she is still not healthy.

Is it her hops that you don't like? I bet it's her hops. That or her ult.

Nilok1 votes

Her hops yes, but also her stacking rend going up to 254 even on monsters. That is a bit too much objective control on a marksman.

Done251 votes

{quoted}

Her hops yes, but also her stacking rend going up to 254 even on monsters. That is a bit too much objective control on a marksman.

There's no reason they couldn't put up a Rend cap if they wanted to.

Nilok1 votes

There are ways the fix the design, as you have suggested, but have yet to do so.

A Miss Fortune1 votes

Honestly Kalista is probably one of the most poorly designed champions in the game's history. I wouldn't say THE worst because Xin Zhao still exists for some reason.

Her only weakness is that she needs her Rend to do exceptional damage and she's squishy like all ADCs, yet they allowed her to pretty much remove all of her weaknesses if she's used properly since Rend can also for whatever reason refund mana and reset the cooldown, and she also has the ability to kite people with infinite dashes, a low, and potentially a 2 second AoE knockup so despite her being squishy she's impossible to catch in a duel unless you have hard CC like Annie or Malzahar who can point and click stun.

OperationDEEZ12 votes

I dunno. I main Ezreal , though I do enjoy playing Varus and Tristana (Best rework ever), I like abilities like explosive charge and blighted quiver that has you weaving abilities and autoattacks.

360D3GR3SS2 votes

Marksman should focus on their auto attacks as it is the most consistent damage.

Done252 votes

{quoted}

Marksman should focus on their auto attacks as it is the most consistent damage.

Is that what you find fun? Would you care if their abilities were more consistent/powerful and could be as valuable as their auto attacks? Such as Tristana focusing on using a Rocket Jump to set off a fully boosted Explosive charge in the middle of the enemy team for significant damage.

Assuming Tristana, MF, Twitch, and Graves all had the same six same items: would you prefer to see them rely on killing each other with basic attacks instead of their abilities? They all have attack speed steroids.

360D3GR3SS2 votes

Yeah when im playing a marksman role positioning is difficult and I enjoy its difficulty. People have fun playing vayne and twitch which are both nearly completely based on auto attack enhancement. Twitch is one of the most fun adcs for me because he CAN do an insane amount of damage, but if he compromises his positioning he is boned.

Done252 votes

{quoted}

Yeah when im playing a marksman role positioning is difficult and I enjoy its difficulty. People have fun playing vayne and twitch which are both nearly completely based on auto attack enhancement. Twitch is one of the most fun adcs for me because he CAN do an insane amount of damage, but if he compromises his positioning he is boned.

To say they are nearly completely auto attack reliant is a bit of a half truth. Less so for Vayne, who still rewards you for positioning a Tumble into Condemn, but Twitch significantly benefits from intelligent skill use. Such as waiting for your J4 or Galio to round up your enemies for you, throwing a Venom Cask, and THEN letting loose with your autos until it's time to pop a team wide six stack Contaminate for a Pentakill.

3TWarrior1 votes

his E doesn't actually do that much damage though compared to a kalista who can rain death upon whoever she hits

Done251 votes

Which is why I would love to seem them shift some power into it. Imagine if he delt true damage at six stacks or had increased AD ratios on the per stack part.

360D3GR3SS1 votes

He did used to have increased ad ratios and it was too strong, currently it does do alot of damage early game which is its intended purpose.

Done251 votes

Too strong when he can also crit perhaps. But if crit was removed/weakened it would free up power to go into his kit.

360D3GR3SS1 votes

No, not when he could crit. He used to be one of the most picked adcs because of how much early lane kill pressure he had while alos becoming a late game god with his ultimate/ attackspeed steroid.

DisasterSola2 votes

You know, its really funny that people dont even remember what the marksman class as a whole was DESIGNED for: Siege and objective taking. Crit was introduced because at the time, AD options were in the 40~50 mark, and ADCs felt useless as a whole because mages did so much more damage. Dodge was added around the same time, when crit was determined to be to strong. Over time dodge was removed because it gave bruisers a metric frag ton of power, especially when you stacked it to 50% or so. you were untouchable because it used the same "guaranteed proc" that crit does. Dodge was removed to entirely legitmite reasons, but crit was left as it was; with no compensation items to reduce its effectiveness. Fast foreward and AD itemization becomes 80AD is the norm, multiplying (literally) the effectiveness of crit.

IMO the only way to let ADCs become something more than a toxic element reliant on right clicks is to remove crit from most items (maybe rework the current crit system) and cap crit at 25% unless you have an ability for it. The major argument against this is "b-buh mah damage!"; people who argue this dont understand the origins of marksman to begin with, and dont understand how much power ADCs have because of sheer itemization; hell, you could "fix" that "lack of damage" (Because i need 900 damage crits every half a second, right?) by adding 30~90 second actives that either peirce armor (a la LW, which is a massive damage increase on its own...) or reduce it per auto attack.

Done251 votes

{quoted} Dodge was added around the same time, when crit was determined to be to strong. Over time dodge was removed because it gave bruisers a metric frag ton of power, especially when you stacked it to 50% or so. you were untouchable because it used the same "guaranteed proc" that crit does.

Ughhh. I remember dodge stacking. There was this one Jax, pre-rework, who had the Ninja Tabi and walked right up to our tower with no minions. He face tanked/dodge the shots and 100-0'ed it with about 1 hit worth of HP left.

Interesting to learn that the game didn't always have crit though! I do wonder what it would be like if all crit based items were removed/reworked to not have it. ADCs would naturally need receive kit based buffs to make up for the fact that they can't kill Tanks in 5 seconds come late game with nothing but their autos. (Hence the point of this thread about making them more kit focused.)

DisasterSola1 votes

{quoted}

Ughhh. I remember dodge stacking. There was this one Jax, pre-rework, who had the Ninja Tabi and walked right up to our tower with no minions. He face tanked/dodge the shots and 100-0'ed it with about 1 hit worth of HP left.

Interesting to learn that the game didn't always have crit though! I do wonder what it would be like if all crit based items were removed/reworked to not have it. ADCs would naturally need receive kit based buffs to make up for the fact that they can't kill Tanks in 5 seconds come late game with nothing but their autos. (Hence the point of this thread about making them more kit focused.)

While true to an extent, i dont agree that ADCs would need much compensation. Attack speed being made more available would be... the only itemization ADCs need; their role should be objectives and focusing squishies in team fights. You need to leave the tank busting to specialized tank busters, or to the APC.

As it is, tanks have a double whammy where they NEED to itemize for both AD and AP just to be moderately effective; by removing crit, you can rework MR and Armor so that its an actual meaningful choice based on team comp, rather than "oh i tank. I buy randys, SV, merc treads, FH, and maybe someting else if game goes long enoguh"

Done251 votes

It would all depend on how they reworked the items. If they replaced all the crit with more attack speed then I'm a bit worried about Marksmen running into the attack speed cap too easily. Especially those with attack speed steroids like Graves or Tristana.

But yes, I'm worried about tanks come late game. Especially with how Omen, and armor in general, is getting nerfed. Thornmail is particularly worrying with how much weaker against those 700~1k crits it will be.

DisasterSola1 votes

{quoted}

It would all depend on how they reworked the items. If they replaced all the crit with more attack speed then I'm a bit worried about Marksmen running into the attack speed cap too easily. Especially those with attack speed steroids like Graves or Tristana.

But yes, I'm worried about tanks come late game. Especially with how Omen, and armor in general, is getting nerfed. Thornmail is particularly worrying with how much weaker against those 700~1k crits it will be.

Mhmmn. theres no reason why ADCs should have such strong damage, especially when 2.5 and 2.0 total AD scaling abilities almost always have 10+ CDs attatched. I mean... honestly, the only ADC who would suffer from the removal of crit is ashe; but Ashes passive has been designed in such a way that you could very easily replace it with something else (Or make it a sheer, flat damage amp thats +20% per point)

Done251 votes

Maybe cause her to inflict a stacking slow/damage amp.

Frost Arrows: Ashe's basic attacks and Volley inflict a stack of "Creeping Cold". Every stack slows the enemy and increases all future damage she deals to them by 5% for three seconds. Ashe can cause up to 2 stacks, increasing by 1 at levels 4/8/12/16.

JustMyBassCannon1 votes

Marksmen are designed to focus on basic attacks. That's pretty much the core design of the champs. It's not bad design, either.

Marksmen need some design diversity, and some new itemization, but making them functionally mages won't accomplish anything.

Done251 votes

It's bad because it's binary and shallow. Either you kill Udyr before he reaches you, or you don't and he rips your face off.

And they aren't mages. They're still reliant on autoattacks, but it shouldn't be 90% of their power budget.

Good Marksmen abilities in action that still focus on auto attacks: Tristana's Explosive Charge being powered up by her autos. Twitch, Varus, and Kalista applying stacks with their auto that they can then use skills to detonate. Sivir's Ricochet transforms her auto attack into a group decimating ability that rewards you for forcing the enemy to group up.

50000000000000001 votes

Corki does true damage on hit and magic damage with abilities because he's a tank buster. His E also reduces armor.

Done251 votes

Flat armor shred is better against low armor targets and Tanks will easily have significantly larger amounts of magic resist than your Marksman will.

3TWarrior1 votes

corki is actually quite well balanced. His kit is made to where it can fit in in any meta, for instance, mobility. He has the slowest move speed there is, but his W grants him a free double flash distance escape. His E actually is meant for his identity as a tank shredder(a somewhat effective one), he can poke down tanks from a range and while fighting them, his E can knock off a large amount of armor to increase his damage

against an ordinary ADC, it is quite lethal...the only problem being his lower than some range, but in lane his poke more than outclasses most champs, so much that he was even played as a mage at one time.

I have to admit that caitlynn feels more like what a marksmen should, attacking from long range and getting that opportune moment to strike...but at the same time, she is fairly mobile while carrying a large sniper rifle...her ultimate makes sense thematically, but why/how would her range suddenly change to "long distance" when she's shooting the same gun. her passive is a nightmare for tanks because it allows her to ignore 50% of their armor and she even has crowd control

there's a reason the top 3 marksmen all have crowd control...because it lets them control the crowd in their favor

they do need to take a look at the ADCs, but the game seems kind of lack luster where adcs either rule or get owned

Done251 votes

{quoted}

corki is actually quite well balanced. His kit is made to where it can fit in in any meta, for instance, mobility. He has the slowest move speed there is, but his W grants him a free double flash distance escape. His E actually is meant for his identity as a tank shredder(a somewhat effective one), he can poke down tanks from a range and while fighting them, his E can knock off a large amount of armor to increase his damage

Otherway around actually. Flat armor removal is best against low armor targets. Who's more worried about losing 30 armor? The 300 armor Malphite, or the 60 armor Vayne?

against an ordinary ADC, it is quite lethal...the only problem being his lower than some range, but in lane his poke more than outclasses most champs, so much that he was even played as a mage at one time.

Which helped to make him stand out as a unique champion.

I have to admit that caitlynn feels more like what a marksmen should, attacking from long range and getting that opportune moment to strike...but at the same time, she is fairly mobile while carrying a large sniper rifle...her ultimate makes sense thematically, but why/how would her range suddenly change to "long distance" when she's shooting the same gun. her passive is a nightmare for tanks because it allows her to ignore 50% of their armor and she even has crowd control

I just pretend her ult is an "overdrive" mode or some such that overheats/wears out the gun. And her passive only ignores 50% of their bonus armor.

there's a reason the top 3 marksmen all have crowd control...because it lets them control the crowd in their favor

I think they need to tone back Marksman CC a bit. I know why it happened, but armor is getting nerfed so Fighters shouldn't be able to dive as easily now. Does Jinx REALLY need both a powerful 70 slow AND a no cast time triple snare ability?

they do need to take a look at the ADCs, but the game seems kind of lack luster where adcs either rule or get owned

That's the problem with having the focus be on autoattacks. Either they pass the stat check of killing Xin before he murders their face, or they don't.

ZephyrDrake1 votes

the point of ADCs is too be the source of high sustained damage. While ADCs like Ezreal and Corki that doesn't mean they are the norm just more ability focused ones. ADCs are more than just "click and win" champs specially by late game in which if they position poorly that usually means game. ADCs shouldn't be changed to be more ability focus, that why AD casters exist

Done252 votes

Poor positioning means death, or at least a brutal beating, for just about anyone. It's not just marksmen who have to worry about it.

ZephyrDrake1 votes

{quoted}

Poor positioning means death, or at least a brutal beating, for just about anyone. It's not just marksmen who have to worry about it.

a poor positioned ADC means a lost teamfight and usually the game the later the game goes. You having a poor positioned ADC is going to hurt you a lot more than having a poor positioned tank or support specially since everyone wants to kill the ADC, unless there is someone else in the team who is fed beyond belief

Done252 votes

It's not the fact that they're a Marksmmen alone that makes them special. Instead, it's the fact that most teams will give the ADC the lion's share of the gold. So if they die it's a huge loss from a gold standpoint. Your Ashe might easily posess at least 30% of the team's total gold, and the Sona might only have 10~15%.

ZephyrDrake1 votes

{quoted}

It's not the fact that they're a Marksmmen alone that makes them special. Instead, it's the fact that most teams will give the ADC the lion's share of the gold. So if they die it's a huge loss from a gold standpoint. Your Ashe might easily posess at least 30% of the team's total gold, and the Sona might only have 10~15%.

and? supports are designed to work with little gold. There are teamcomps in which the mid laner takes the most gold or the top laner not the ADC. ADCs are important because they are the source of constant sustained damage unlike the burst oriented damage of most mid laners and top laners. If you lose the sustained damage source then you are at a disadvantage unless you manage to burst people down or you have some other form of sustained damage (Azir for example)

Done251 votes

{quoted}

and? supports are designed to work with little gold.

Which is something I think isn't healthy for the game. You can make champions who are less gold reliant, but you shouldn't relegate an entire class to "sit back and don't ever farm/buy items". I still remember wardcow Alistar who would buy Mobility boots, Heart of gold, and then NOTHING but wards.

There are teamcomps in which the mid laner takes the most gold or the top laner not the ADC. ADCs are important because they are the source of constant sustained damage unlike the burst oriented damage of most mid laners and top laners. If you lose the sustained damage source then you are at a disadvantage unless you manage to burst people down or you have some other form of sustained damage (Azir for example)

Your argument is that loosing your sustained damage is bad, but your post is flawed in that it doesn't have to come from the ADC. APCs like Vlad or Swain can EASILY carry a team fight with their own DPS. Were it not for their lower tower taking power, which Riot could easily change by buffing AP damage vs towers, it would be very viable to see them in bottom lane instead.

Just imagine a bot lane with a Vlad who was guaranteed to reach his late game because no one could push him out of his lane with early pressure. Scary, isn't it?

ZephyrDrake1 votes

{quoted}

Which is something I think isn't healthy for the game. You can make champions who are less gold reliant, but you shouldn't relegate an entire class to "sit back and don't ever farm/buy items". I still remember wardcow Alistar who would buy Mobility boots, Heart of gold, and then NOTHING but wards.

Your argument is that loosing your sustained damage is bad, but your post is flawed in that it doesn't have to come from the ADC. APCs like Vlad or Swain can EASILY carry a team fight with their own DPS. Were it not for their lower tower taking power, which Riot could easily change by buffing AP damage vs towers, it would be very viable to see them in bottom lane instead.

Just imagine a bot lane with a Vlad who was guaranteed to reach his late game because no one could push him out of his lane with early pressure. Scary, isn't it?

how is it flawed when i also said "or you have some other form of sustained damage"? or did you just read up until you found it convenient for you? Also there are only 4 sources of gold in the game. Unless you radically change the map layout and add a 5th source of income there is always going to be one champion in the map that won't be getting much gold. Who would you rather that be? someone who does poorly without gold or someone who will perform relatively the same with or without it?

Done251 votes

{quoted}

how is it flawed when i also said "or you have some other form of sustained damage"? or did you just read up until you found it convenient for you?

Because the argument was about why Marksmen were more valuable than every one else. My counterpoint is that you could send an APC like Vlad bot instead of Tristana. (If they buffed AP damage against towers.)

Also there are only 4 sources of gold in the game. Unless you radically change the map layout and add a 5th source of income there is always going to be one champion in the map that won't be getting much gold. Who would you rather that be? someone who does poorly without gold or someone who will perform relatively the same with or without it?

Just because there are only four "sources", doesn't mean you have to assign 1 champion to each source. There's no reason you can't SHARE one of them with another champion. No where in the rule book does it say "Vayne must get EVERY last hit in her location.".

And there ARE supports who scale very nicely with gold such as Nami or Lulu.

ZephyrDrake1 votes

{quoted}

Because the argument was about why Marksmen were more valuable than every one else. My counterpoint is that you could send an APC like Vlad bot instead of Tristana. (If they buffed AP damage against towers.)

Just because there are only four "sources", doesn't mean you have to assign 1 champion to each source. There's no reason you can't SHARE one of them with another champion. No where in the rule book does it say "Vayne must get EVERY last hit in her location.".

And there ARE supports who scale very nicely with gold such as Nami or Lulu.

I specifically said that you need sustained form of damage which ADCs provide, and if you lose that form of damage you better make sure you either have another form of sustained damage or that your burst is high enough to win you the fights. I also mentioned in that exact same post how there are teamcomps in which the mid laner is the focus so no, i did not say "ADCs were more valuable than everyone else" nice try but no.

the reason you don't share the gold is because why have 2 champions that are going to be relatively weak to everyone else on the team than to have just one who doesn't rely on gold. Nami and Lulu don't need gold to do what they are supposed to do. They can do the exact same thing regardless of how much gold they have, the only thing that changes is how potent their spells are. An ADC underfamed is going to provide next to nothing in teamfights when compared to one that is farmed. Same can be said about most champions that need to build damage vs one that is more focused on utility. Your utility will be pretty much the same regardless of how much gold you get. You literally need a 5th source of income because having 1 well farmed champion is better than having two underfarmed ones in which one it doesn't really matter how much gold he gets.

thumbnail91 votes

Um no they've tried that several times and nobody liked being blown up in 2 seconds.

Also that would make them AD casters and put them in a different category.

Done251 votes

Which champions did they try it with, and who was being blown up in two seconds? If NO ONE liked it then surely you should be able to find archived complains about those specific champions and what happened right? Because I want to see this.

So long as they're still rewarded for building attack speed, such as with stacking mechanics like "Silver Bolts" or abilities like Sivir's "Ricochet", then they wont become pure AD casters.

Rabid Husky1 votes

looked through alotta the comments you actually seem like you have ideas of what your talking about and your not raging so hey gj. as for our spell idea tbh name other roles where auto attacks are there primary source of damage in a fight? adcs spells are there to help in some way shape or form and in most cases you still press qwer just as much as anyone else in the game but their damage isnt reliant like it is for zed riven or gp in fact with crit champs like gp yasuo tryndamere there just as if not worse than adcs since they usually have recovery and bulkyness. as for adcs just being point and click its really a bad misconception since late game past the point when any form of carry would just steam roll even then adcs do use spells the entire game ive never played a game where i didnt use a spell as a adc past 3 mins

Done251 votes

It's a bit hard to read you post so I edited a little for clarity and to show what I think you're saying.

{quoted}

I looked through a lot of the comments you actually seem like you have ideas of what your talking about and your not raging so hey gj. As for your spell idea tbh name other roles where auto attacks are there primary source of damage in a fight?

Fighters. People like Trundle, Yi, Udyr, Fiora, and Jarvan are the melee equivalent of a Marksman.

Marksmen spells are there to help in some way shape or form and in most cases you still press qwer just as much as anyone else in the game but their damage isnt reliant like it is for zed riven or gp.

The more Independent a role's damage is of their kit, the less identity each champion has. EVERYONE knows what differences Brand brings to the game vs Swain. But does Tristana show the same amount of difference when compared to say...Graves?

In fact, with crit champs like gp, yasuo, or tryndamere they're just as, if not worse, than Marksmen since they usually have recovery and bulkyness.

If they didn't they would get poked down in lane too easily. Just imagine trying to fight Quinn as Yasuo with no shield to protect you from her harass.

As for Marksmen just being point and click it's really a bad misconception since late game, past the point when any form of carry would just steam roll, even then Marksmen do use spells. I've never played a game where i didn't use an ability as a Marksman past 3 mins.

You can use spells, but you don't HAVE to. Vayne can still easily kill someone just by walking up and melting them with nothing more than her basic attacks. No other class shows such a complete disregard for their own kit.

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