Are we ever going to see a proper Paladin in the game?

Linna Excel··3 votes·2,368 views

One thing about LOL is there are a lot of champs with aspects of a Paladin from other games, there isn't a pure paladin as I see it. I guess the first thing we need to do is define a paladin. I'm not going with the full-tank guy that MMOs use. That's an Mud/Mush creation for the needs of that genre, which got ported into MMOs because of an intelligence cascade. I'm thinking more of a PnP style fighter with fewer combat tricks but a little more utility and specialized damage.

In LOL terms we are probably looking at a sustained damage AD bruiser with a little bit of utility (like a heal or AoE aura).

How do I get to this?

  1. Paladins are guys in heavy armor, sure. Full plate and a shield baby. Or full plate and a big sword. That's not the whole story though.
  2. However they also have evil smiting skills as well as a holy avenger (bonus damage against evil). He can turn undead (make them go bye-bye), but not as well as the cleric can. He's not just a tank, even though he can do that, he's got decent sustained damage by wailing away with his sword every turn. Basically he's got specialized damage for the things that need killing.
  3. Yes paladins have a healing skill and/or an aura of some kind. Maybe they've got a little magic, but it is more of an emergency back-up for the cleric in the team.
  4. Don't ask me why they get a horse when they are running around in the narrow confines of a building or dungeon 90% of the time. I think that was a bad mechanic to reenforce the knight in armor shtick. However, a knight on horseback with a lance in the middle ages was the equivalent of a heavily armed tank with a huge ass cannon stomping your average soldiers into the ground.

So how do some of the current LoL champs stack up? Garen - well, he's got a self heal, tank, and a smite but he's too much of a tank. He's not quite right

Irelia - she's tanky, does damage, has some utility in the form of a heal and variable CC, but she doesn't have the right theme overall which is the issue and her heals are too selfish. She's probably the closest one right now.

Kayle - she's got a smite, sustained damage, utility, she looks right... and she's an AP glass cannon. Nope.

Leona - she's tanky (but not quite unless really fed). She has utility in the form of CC (no heals though). She looks right. Her ult screams smiting evil. But she's not a sustained damage dealer... her kit wants to be a CC assassin/bruiser, she plays like a knight charging in, but she's a support/tank.

Poppy - A dwarven paladin? Well she's tanky. She does damage and smites people with her Q (for now). She looks right for the job with the hammer and shield. Her charging in is about right for the knight charge idea. No utility so she doesn't pass muster. Her background could lend her to being a paladin of justice though.

Taric - Well he's got armor. He's got a heal and a stun for utility. He's not a front-line damage dealer though. He's a worse PnP paladin than leona and more of an MMO style meatshield.

**So where does this leave us? ** I think for balance reasons, a Paladin is a tricky beast to pull off. I mean of the 6 champs I listed, not one of them builds a lot of AD aside from Irelia or Poppy. Irelia and Poppy can also build more as tanks with TF and aren't always full bruisers. 2 are stuck as support tanks (free Leona) which isn't right for a paladin. Leona can build bruiser in the top and jungle, but she doesn't go into those lanes much. Kayle is an AP glass cannon and is right out.

It feels like Riot is dancing around a paladin without getting the formula right.

So how could that be done? Well the easiest way is to give poppy a heal in her rework, overloading something if you have to. That might not be right for her because she's more of a dwarf warrior and not quite a paladin. Thematically... it might fit her nicely with her old backstory. Option 2 would be to encourage leona to be less of a support and more of a bruiser and maybe give her small AD scalings in addition to AP. Now she's popular as a support, but I would argue that's because she plays more like a bruiser and she is gold dependent like one too. However, she's in a good spot so I wouldn't mess with her on that alone. I think a switch would suit her well, but riot hate supports with a passion especially when they leave lane. The other champs wouldn't be as easy to tweak.

So what would I build a new paladin champ around? First I think I'd start with the following 4 things: tanky but not an MMO meat shield, sustained damage but not an ADC, some form of heal or utility maybe as an aura, and smite evil in the face with a big sword. They are also leaders or inspiring figures, you can't leave that out if possible. Build wise I think you'd make a champ who gets 2 defensive items, boots, two offensive items, and one optional item for the match. He shouldn't be too tanky such that he can only be a meatshield and his base damages should be low enough and his scalings just high enough that he can't be a full tank for his role.

Kit idea Passive - Every time you AA, allies near you gain X health. This would reinforce his role in the front line and take care of the heal.

Q - A damage spell on lowish CD (for the TF users) and resets your AA. Think Poppy's Q or Vi's E. I'd want to put a passive effect that scales off of AD to reinforce you aren't just a tank but that might be a bit much. Maybe bonus damage against enemy champs and the dragon/baron only?

W - I'd like to see a melee ranged stun or silence that's on a medium CD.

E - A hard engage skill like Leona's E, Poppy's E, or Vi's Q.

R - An active aura that gives nearby allies tenacity, armor, mr, and maybe a small shield or a heal if there isn't an AoE heal in the passive. This is a leadership aura that would work with the idea of a leader on the battlefield and give the right utility in the right skill slot. Paladin's need to be heroes and this would have the heroic leader feel to it... he'd be the guy in the front rallying people to him.

46 Comments

Trylobyte6 votes

League has different types of paladins. Paladin is a general class, not a narrowed-down specific concept. I like the fact that League has managed several takes on the concept.

Taric is a defensive paladin. Heavily-armored hammer-wielding support fighter. An all-around nice guy you wouldn't mind letting babysit your children, but could also trust to have your back on the battlefield. He doesn't hit as hard as a dedicated melee fighter, but that's because he's not that type of paladin. He'd rather keep his allies safe than kill the enemy.

Kayle is an offensive paladin. Trades defensive prowess and super-tankiness for being able to charge into the fray and smite the enemy with righteous fury. She still has elements of defense and protection in the form of her heal and her ultimate, but even those tend to be used best in an offensive way (the heal for chasing, the ultimate pre-emptive to a dive). She might be a glass cannon, but how much does that matter when she can kill her enemies before they can touch her?

Garen is a tank paladin. Tough, durable, and hard-hitting on top of standing up for truth, justice, and the Demacian way, he's pretty much what you'd expect when you think 'D&D paladin.' He has no real supportive abilities, but that's fine since he intends to charge into battle himself and strike down the enemy, protecting his allies simply by being between them and the enemy and by being too much of an obnoxious beef-wall for the enemy to get past.

Thanotos Omega1 votes

you forgot Leona

Deep Terror Nami3 votes

I've always thought that was the role Leona, Garen, and Kayle filled. Justice and divine light and all that.

Linna Excel1 votes

Thematically I totally agree with you.

Party role wise in terms of gameplay matching the traditional role is where my concerns are. All the Champs I listed have a theme or history of some kind that lend themselves to the role. So you can play an interpretation of paladins. However this particular topic is about mechanical and role issues of a paladin in addition to the thematics.

Trylobyte1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1wKLMjOE,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-04-24T15:12:41.517+0000)

Thematically I totally agree with you.

Party role wise in terms of gameplay matching the traditional role is where my concerns are. All the Champs I listed have a theme or history of some kind that lend themselves to the role. So you can play an interpretation of paladins. However this particular topic is about mechanical and role issues of a paladin in addition to the thematics.

The mechanical issue with a paladin in a game like League is the role of the paladin itself.

A paladin... ...can heal, but not as well as a cleric. ...can deal damage, but not as well as a DPS fighter. ...can tank, but not as well as a tank. ...can cast, but not as well as a mage. ...can be the face, but not as well as a bard.

In short, a paladin does many things but does not do them as well as people who are meant to be doing those things. And as League has shown, that leads to one of two things: Either a champion who can do everything badly and thus never gets picked, a champion that can do everything but has one widely-accepted best path (Kayle fits here), or a champion with an obnoxiously overloaded kit.

Chocmerc3 votes

i feel that taric fills the niche for paladin, especially old taric who had a toggleable heal over time that he would radiate. hes a front line warrior later on, especially with his passive, auras of protection and empowerment, heal, stun, etc. the only difference is his ability thematics are a little off from paladin, i.e. ranged dazzling stun. with a slight nudge he would fit the paladin thematic in my mind pretty well. throw in a shield bash or other suitably beefy melee stun animation instead of a shiny bolt for his stun and i think it would fit. then again my definition of paladin is markedly different ^.^

Angry Monster3 votes

Not going to happen with your definition of paladin.

In LOL terms we are probably looking at a sustained damage AD bruiser with a little bit of utility (like a heal or AoE aura).

The heal is the deal breaker. Taric is also probably also taking the paladin slot.

Apollocliptic2 votes

Because they didn't like Taric top he has been weakened a bit, to create a new champ to do what Taric "USED" to do, after gutting Taric... It just won't happen, first they'll rework Taric, then we'll see if they find someone else to fill the void (if he gets locked into support that is)

Personally I've always been a fan of the Paladin class. I see them as warriors (not necessarily huge knights) with some support mechanics. I'd imagine something along these lines:

Passive - righteous strike (gains stacks each time he is hit by CC, dealing damage with each AA he hands according to these stacks - or spending the stacks) Alternative passive - AA's return CC and DoT from himself to his targets

Q - See no Evil - dashes forward with a self blind, removes all other debuffs from himself & nearby allies (like immediately next to him) W - Speak no evil - next AA (casts silence and deals light magic damage to target and in a small area behind them) E - Hear no evil - sonic shockwave that repels enemies and projectiles (like a 1 seconds face the wind) R - Cleanse - Cone base skillshot (removes DoT damage from allies with small AP scaling healing, removes buffs from enemies and ends channelled abilities - too bad Olaf :D )

He/She would be less tanky then Leona, Taric or Braum, but not squishy with maybe 50% defence stat Their skills scale with AP, but more utility that damage, most of their damage would come from AA procs, AS and building some AD Their purpose is the ultimate "anti-cc" champ, playing support they can protect their adc from almost anything, and has some survivability but can't tank for a team As top, they have basic escapes, and their anti-CC skills can make ganking hard. But they lack "brawling power" making them better late game in team fights.

The Q stacks the passive, and if used to dash past an enemy, you can use E to knock them back, before the blind wears off and you can then attack. W can break the affects of Blind, allowing for combo skills with Q W E then pull back. In theory should lose top lane brawls and be forced to play safe, but brings a second support style champ to the late game that can dominate teamfights, with a passive that could potentially lead to massive proc damage. Imagine this champ vs Teemo :D

36949613_DEL2 votes

OMG , SEE NO EVIL hayaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

NO

passive : eternal flame

Q Speed of light W Sacred shield E Holy prism R Saved by the light

hahahahah = WOW

Apollocliptic1 votes

A slight, but might be over powered tweak, is if Cleanse simply put any skills on immediate CD (if you are using your ulti but not if you haven't that'd just be cruel) and reset the ones already on CD. If you're good, you could hit your enemy at just the right time to maximise their vulnerability time

It'd be great for stopping Olaf, Atrox, Trydamere back door turret diving, though it'd lack offensive application (it'd be as feared as Sona or Galio's close range ultimates :D )

36949613_DEL1 votes

When it comes to a idea of paladin in LoL we must push it even the price can be over powered.

Apollocliptic1 votes

{quoted}

When it comes to a idea of paladin in LoL we must push it even the price can be over powered.

LOL If the idea is balanced, riot might consider it (might) but if it's just overpowered the post gets quickly forgotten, that said I wouldn't mind seeing him released with full power, then tweaked over time. He'd still have the weak point of not being That tanky, or That brawly.

As for R, if it was like Sona's ulti I think it'd be something formidable but avoidable, if it's just a massive amumu AOE it's be such a bump lol

36949613_DEL2 votes

U are right it MUST be like amumu ult aoe maybe slight wider

Apollocliptic1 votes

lol . . . Visually it could look SO awesome though, imagine Leona's ultimate in reverse, comes from the ground and shoots into the sky, expanding to fill the wide area of effect

36949613_DEL1 votes

I am not joking but i am thinkig of to be like in WOW " Execution sentence" where hammer slowly fals from the sky causing 30K Holy dmg to target . Now i was thinking in LOL it might be area of efect spell where HAMMERS fall from the sky dealing 30% of no matter how much HP targets have in ammumu aoe sized aoe space around PALADIN. op

Apollocliptic1 votes

So now it would deal AOE % hp damage + removes all debuffs, buffs and curses and instead of holy light it's... Hammer Time? item 3022 item 3044 item 3184

36949613_DEL1 votes

Dude light is coming from sky not from the ground , pls if it is holy let it be holy

Apollocliptic1 votes

I was thinking that the light is coming from him, since he is a visage of holiness and vessel of the gods.

36949613_DEL1 votes

Also R removes all buffs and DEBUFFS self buffs and curses , in wide area

36949613_DEL1 votes

W call it "Final verdict" so i can use to it cause i use it in wow alot yo man :) And if hit someone with final verdict also increases you next hear no evil spell dmg by 50%

Linna Excel2 votes

I'm thinking if it's smaller like Irelia's W or heimer's passive it could work.

And yes, I think Taric was intended to be a paladin style of champion, but he's more of a support tank. So my issue is mostly a role one with him instead of a thematic one.

Angry Monster1 votes

Riot current champion design philosophy is not to make champs that fill the same thematic space. So your new paladin needs to be unique and not step on Tarics toes.

You need to understand riot does not like meaningful heal in league. Heals end up eating a lot of power budget (except on nidlee for some reason). Also another healing knight steps on taric space.

MLDzXnRRR2 votes

Paladin should be just a knight. Maybe you think about the DND paladin class, which is something like a crossbreed between a good warrior and a priest

36949613_DEL1 votes

You are boring. Let me explain you in real life there WAS paladins THEY were knights(in france).

In games Paladins are warriors that have healing potential and high health and resistances , and maybe stuns.

Venowolf2 votes

For me the lol Paladin always has been: Taric

Your kit of the "dream" Paladin have much in common with Taric kit:

Kit idea Passive - Every time you AA, allies near you gain X health. This would reinforce his role in the front line and take care of the heal.

item 3401 item 3097 item 3302 Face of the Mountain line, have that passive... And its a core item of Taric. Also Taric passive works on AA (bonus dmg) so the passive really fit, also his Q health a lot.

Q - A damage spell on lowish CD (for the TF users) and resets your AA. Think Poppy's Q or Vi's E. I'd want to put a passive effect that scales off of AD to reinforce you aren't just a tank but that might be a bit much. Maybe bonus damage against enemy champs and the dragon/baron only?

His passive have the bonus dmg, and also have a powerful heal in his Q, so its a kinda similar.

W - I'd like to see a melee ranged stun or silence that's on a medium CD.

He have his E stun, that turn more powerful if you cast in a "melee range"

E - A hard engage skill like Leona's E, Poppy's E, or Vi's Q.

This is the part that he really miss, the dive-in, he can use the E to lock some key target but not make a hard engage.

R - An active aura that gives nearby allies tenacity, armor, mr, and maybe a small shield or a heal if there isn't an AoE heal in the passive. This is a leadership aura that would work with the idea of a leader on the battlefield and give the right utility in the right skill slot. Paladin's need to be heroes and this would have the heroic leader feel to it... he'd be the guy in the front rallying people to him.

His R its a aura (also his W) that guide your team on the battlefield, maybe need some tweaks but its similar.

Taric is under a rework right now, I really love change his R aura into a defensive instead an Offensive, maybe combine with the W aura, and add a new skill in his W that help him to hard-engage.

36949613_DEL1 votes

He is support and it is odd . we talk about Holy killer (not garen) who can act holy and carry his team to victory through holy power and self sacrifice.

Wait WOW exist , sry i must back to raid startedddddddddddddddddd

Venowolf1 votes

He can be a Paladin and a Tanky support at the same time, he don't need to be a "carry" Paladin are defensive oriented class, with holy and divine powers to execute the evil, undead and dark "races", but in this game we don't have races, only kind or roles, so a Paladin have the role of Tank/Support not fighter or assasain IMO.

Linna Excel2 votes

Venowolf, I don't disagree with the similarities, I just don't see Taric being let out of bot lane as a tanky support. Last time he went top, he got nerfed to the point only his diehard fans play him. He's also an AP champ, what I'm looking for should probably be AD overall with AP scalings on utility only. I'd also prefer the paladin aspects be a part of the core kit and not the items you buy.

Venowolf1 votes

A Paladin can't be a "Tanky Support" O_o

Paladin don't need the "killer" aspect, need to be a hero, heal people, soak the damage for they, give auras, the "carry" aspect is not for a Paladin, they are defensive and very hard to kill, Taric can fit very well, only need a tool to engage,

Stonington1 votes

What's a Paladin?

Deep Terror Nami3 votes

A hero of justice The proverbial "white knight" A warrior blessed by his god Highly resistant or immune to disease and fear Wields mighty weapons and often a shield to protect his allies Directs his gods wrath at undead and evil beings or asks for his aid to heal

Stuff like that. It's a common class in fantasy RPG's and has real (though less divine and mighty) origins if you care to look it up.

Red Frostraven1 votes

Ideally, he or she is not garen-sized, but a human-sized warrior, with a sword-sized sword.

Linna Excel1 votes
  • A 1st ed-3rd ed DnD style (not sure about newer editions) fighter who has magical damage buffs and utility.
  • A GW W/Mo (mostly warrior with a little monk support)
  • A guy in heavy armor and a big sword who can beat down the other guy
  • A heroic leader who radiates virtue and occasionally a religious warrior who protects the weak/his faith and seeks out evil to defeat it.
36949613_DEL1 votes

Paladins is WOW category , no further discussion.

Now for LOL there might be some champ that heal and have natural mr and armor or shield . Def , that fit is Garen , Kayle , and Taric but non of them actually do the thing - be a PALADIN!!!!!

They have to made another champ.

36949613_DEL1 votes

From all of it i would just like to have a cham that "CANT" die like Nasus but that it is not Nasus , and that I can 1v1 nasus and that he cant kill me , that would be epic.

Wînter Fox1 votes

Garen is too tanky to be a Paladin?? And Irelia is the closest thing? Wow... with your definition of Paladin Zed or Aatrox could fit.

36949613_DEL1 votes

There must be LORE , Aatrox is demon wtf is your problem?

Wînter Fox1 votes

OP didn't mention anything about lore. He was referring to abilities and gameplay.

36949613_DEL2 votes

The guy said "Paladin" paladin IS holy warrior , by it`s name.Demon is not holy , it is cursed.

Linna Excel1 votes

Garen's more of the MMO meatshield. Some tank is good and he's not too far off IMO. He's just a different genre's paladin.

I'm thinking of more of a GW1 W/Mo with mostly warrior skills and 1-2 utility skills from the monk. In GW1, warriors build 4 damage skills (and usually their elite or ult was damage), AS skill, rez, MS skill (or utility), utility.

Wînter Fox1 votes

I'm just saying you have a strange definition of Paladin and meatshield. 3/4 of Garen's kit is offensive and his ult is an execute. Irelia's secondary role is assassin. Less tanky than Garen and more offensive with healing is Aatrox MasterYi territory

36949613_DEL1 votes

And there we came to a problem , Garen(all say he is paladin but he is not) CAN NOT beat aatrox , just canot. Aatrox out sustain Garen so we need someone who can finaly destroy evil demon top lane.

Apollocliptic1 votes

I have to say, I was reading fairly until I saw Leona is tanky "but only when really fed" maybe you haven't seen enough Leona's, or the only ones you've seen build item 3117 anditem 3301 and therefore don't get tanky until the end of the game. But Saying leona isn't tanky made it hard for me to keep reading.

On the other hand, Taric has the potential to be a big damage dealer, his problem is lack of mobility means if he's winning, his opponent just takes two steps back and pokes him until he's out of mana (i mean even trydamere can use that tactic) and if he's behind, he can't escape, so he doesn't have many "plays" that could turn the situation around. If you're stupid enough to stand next to him and brawl, even a support taric can take down a Yi or a volibear through almost endless sustain

Linna Excel1 votes

Compared to the other tanks, she's more offensive/CC oriented. She doesn't have the power budget to be as tanky as other champs. Yes she's got spot tanking with her W, which is better than nothing but has its limits. Also tank junglers get cinderhulk which is a little better than Sunfire ATM.

36949613_DEL1 votes

There must be some new champ that will have some integrated item like he can only buy in store (like rengars bonetooth was) because he is the only holy enough to buy it :__) and than that item is called Holy Shield and give usser 3000 HP and 50% croud control reduction and to paladin some healing efect. RIP NASUS

Apollocliptic1 votes

Fair enough, Taric, Alister, Naut all bring tankier kits to the table, but I think she's tankier early game than Thresh and Blitz for example (think, not sure) and ofc, jungle tanks or top tanks will be much tougher, hence "unless she is fed" since her build will always be behind

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