Kinda hilarious how AD item have extremely low cooldowns while Zhonya's sitting on a two minute CD

Malicious Metal·Feb 19, 2017·167 votes·5,574 views

I'd actually prefer an on demand spellshield and MS buff over what is basically a self-disable.

98 Comments

AhristocatsFeb 19, 201758 votes

Zhonya is fine where it is

the other AD items should be nerfed

Sraeg2013Feb 19, 201713 votes

Zhonya is a second tier item even if you want the stasis.

AhristocatsFeb 19, 201721 votes

by second tier item you mean "cannot be bought in every game"?

cause that what zhonya was

cheap 105% gold efficient 120 fucking AP making mages nuking you with a defensive item and low cd gamebreaking active

i don't want this again, sorry bro

EnloctFeb 20, 201718 votes

No one said rebuff it to that level.

Riot made the same mistake of giving an item offense, defense, and utility to one item without any kind of sacrifice so the comparison is relevant.

IDK if "second tier" is what you should call an item that is only bought if you have specific synergy or it interacts specially with enemy abilities like Zed. It's really meh right now and only taken because its the only AP/Armor item.

AhristocatsFeb 20, 20173 votes

you make a point, i think it should give more armor like 60 armor or be cheaper

cause there are things that shouldn't happen: -zhonya giving a lot of offensive power -zhonya's active being on 90 sec cd making assassins or other champions unable to abuse the on-cooldown of the item

other possibility is letting people use zhonya on enemies to set up delayed spells like brand's w or to flee

TeCoolMageFeb 20, 20173 votes

I think the active should be put into a utility high HP item rather than an armour AP item so mages can get more armour items against late game assassins without screwing them over by rushing it in laning phase (and therefore negating any kill potential they have).

ClemJohn2Feb 21, 20171 votes

Zhonya's Ring was the ultimate AP item. Then it got stolen. http://joj.5pots.com/en/issue-21-12-may-21-cle.html Read "Inside the Vault"

Sraeg2013Feb 21, 20171 votes

Good old days when balance changes were explained in lore.

In the meantime in 3v3 we have item 3090 which is functionally identical to Zhonya's Ring.

Perma CCFeb 19, 201717 votes

Mages have hardly any defensive itemization with actives. The two that they have are completely trash. 120 second cooldown Zhonyas active. Archangel is a stack up to get the active item and then its got like a 90 second cooldown... you don't even get to use the active hardly because games end before 15... and the active doesn't even feel that strong unless your like ryze.

Meanwhile an AD champion can build Maw and Edge of night and one shot everything while being basically immune to a mage because they will one shot the mage before the mage can pop the edge of night and maw passive.

IncarcerationFeb 19, 20178 votes

The stasis is just complete trash on mages that rely on burst, even if it's short ranged, because the zhonyas doesn't do anything for them except force the enemy to focus their team or run ( Viktor Orianna ).

However, the stasis becomes insanely broken on AP assassins that have the mobility to reposition after the stasis, and their reliance on cds.

Seraphs is also extremely good on the champions that usually get it because they would love a shield to do their combo ( Ryze Cassiopeia ).

Those are the only two items that actually helps AD champions keep up to date with AP champions because mages usually have much better defense and range in this meta. That is because mages have access to health so they can usually deal with poke, and poke you down instead.

The real solution to this problem is to decrease the duration of EoN, and create a better armor item for mages.

Fondling GemsFeb 19, 20178 votes

See my biggest issue with hourglass is the champions that use it. Mages have inherently longer cast animations than any class except maybe tanks. You hourglass, ok now both your and the attackers CD's are back up. Issue is that if they are another mage with longer cast animations they can start it before Zhonyas wears off and not leave time to dodge, even with flash.

Alternatively they are someone like Zed where unless you have a team to follow up he will just stand on top of you and Q>E kill you before you can get off one ability.

Zhonyas hurts people who have longer cast times on their abilities which is why I can barely stand building the item. If my team can't follow up then there is no point in using it because then I might not have it during a time when my team can help. I just find Zhonyas too punishing if the enemy has any knowledge of how to time abilities because zhonas gives enemies an advantage of the first hit, which in this meta means death.

LordGeovanniFeb 20, 20172 votes

mages do not have longer spell cooldowns than other classes the only class that can reliably have spells on lower cooldowns than mages are assassins fighters may have 1 spell with lower cooldown than all of the mages spells but 3 of the mages spells will be lower cooldown than the other 2 of the fighters spells. not to mention that mages have easier itemization to cdr and damage it the same time while melee fighters have to choose and adcs keep getting their items with attack speed changed so that fighters have effectively have 1 attack speed item if you arent hybrid

Fondling GemsFeb 20, 20177 votes

I did not say spell Cd's. I said spell animations. Zed can W>Q>E in the time it takes say, Ahri's Charm to fire, not reach the target, but just fire. Due to hourglasses stasis it puts any champion with decent cast animations at a disadvantage after they use it and it doesn't disadvantage enemies at all, even if they have long cast times because they can time for when it will end.

It inherently puts you at a disadvantage because anyone who knows how to time their spells can hit you before you can even start to cast yours. Mages suffer the most from this because they tend to have longer cast times on their abilities, and yet the item is tailored for mages.

LordGeovanniFeb 20, 20171 votes

arhi can qwe wqe or eqw in the same amount of time as zed can wqe
Arhi's q cancels her e animation though i dont think w does.

Fondling GemsFeb 20, 20178 votes

No she definitely can't, not when Zed gets to place down his shadow while Ahri is in stasis. She can W with no cast time but that is it, her E has a decently long cast time and if you are in stasis you are probably already half health. In regards to her W she is far better off than most mid laners. You ever see a ziggs fast combo? Answer: no, because he can't and his combo is really slow.

The fact is that the champion is in stasis because they get hit the moment they get out as the enemy can start their animations while they are still in stasis.

I honestly never really noticed it that much until I had to lane vs Zed in URF yesterday multiple times. His combo comes out so fast that literally your only option is to flash and hope your timing is 1/10th of a second better than his. When you can Zhonyas on a 24 second CD you realize what a trashy situation it puts you in.

CasterGilgameshFeb 20, 20173 votes

when you are telling the truth but people still chose to downvote

Fondling GemsFeb 20, 20172 votes

Pfft, I like how no one has any idea what is going on. We are basically just repeating the same things and we go from both getting upvotes to both getting downvotes. Just goes to show how people interpret things based on how you phrase them.

Well either that or they got jealous that I have a PBE account. Who knows? More importantly who cares?

dunder killFeb 19, 20179 votes

Just need to increase the CD on EoN. Maybe shave 5 Lethality off an item or two. Problem fixed.

Lets be fair here too. There are situations where the Zhonyas active is unarguably better and some where it isnt. Trying to brush it off as being just "basically a self-disable" isn't being reasonable. It's still arguably one of the strongest actives in the game

DaNinadFeb 21, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Just need to increase the CD on EoN. Maybe shave 5 Lethality off an item or two. Problem fixed.

Lets be fair here too. There are situations where the Zhonyas active is unarguably better and some where it isnt. Trying to brush it off as being just "basically a self-disable" isn't being reasonable. It's still arguably one of the strongest actives in the game

make lethality 50 % nerf the cd of the items

RalanrFeb 19, 20177 votes

But you can build it on Mordekaiser.

Though yeah, edge is dumb.

Malicious MetalFeb 19, 201722 votes

Honestly? Zhonyas is far from the items I even consider building on Morde nowadays.

Why would I want to stand still for a few seconds?

RalanrFeb 19, 20174 votes

This is what I tell people when I say a new AP armor item would be too good for tanks and they bring up hourglass in response.

Best princess EUFeb 19, 20176 votes

because you want to avoid zed ulti? or make some debuffs useless like vlad ulti or camille ulti?

i don't know how morde works, but as a mage player i buy zhonya in those situations

MechakaiserFeb 19, 201712 votes

Morde WANTS to get ulted by zed (in general) as he doesn't have enough burst to be a real threat on his own. So basically you'd be removing a lot of pressure from your adc.

DessemFeb 20, 20174 votes

I think Mordekaiser'd murder Zed, too, if Zed stuck around too long. :^)

EschetonFeb 20, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1uZRarYI,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-02-19T19:55:38.329+0000)

Honestly? Zhonyas is far from the items I even consider building on Morde nowadays.

Why would I want to stand still for a few seconds?

Towrdiving with buddies and going deeeep. Nice to reset aggro.

Sraeg2013Feb 20, 20172 votes

Might as well get Ohmwrecker then.

Champion SkinFeb 20, 20171 votes

item 3056 well it is 250 gold cheaper and 5 more armor and 300 hp instead of 70 AP and you get the point runner passive giving movement speed around towers

EschetonFeb 26, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Might as well get Ohmwrecker then.

Ow, yeah. Brilliant. Ohmwrecker+ item 3147 Guerilla Tristana . Just sneaking through the jungle taking out all the turrets. I'm all for it.

THE RlVER KlNGFeb 20, 20175 votes

Or how any Ad mid can buy Hexdrinker and the lane is now over

FlemmanFeb 20, 20172 votes

if only hexdrinker was an active, we could actually feel outplayed by it's shield.

That's basically what annoy me with ad item. When i don't get a kill because the ennemy use zohnya in the perfect time, I feel outplayed, when I don't get a kill because hexdrinker shield proc I feel like math beat me, not the other guy

VekknaFeb 20, 20174 votes

Meanwhile, AP can't even use Seraph active during a hard cc after spending 20 minutes stacking the damn thing.

Sexy Jack RabbitFeb 20, 20174 votes

To be fair Zhonyas being on a 2 minute cooldown isn't exactly an issue. I'd be happy to see the 5 armor given back, as it is technically the only proper AP + Armor item in the game, and in the current meta 45 armor feels underwhelming. That being said if we saw the meta shift back to AP mages, 50 Armor might be too much. Other then that I think it's actually a pretty good item. Once the item got lowered to 2900 Gold from 3500 gold and the AP got nuked I'd say it was finally balanced.

It allows mages to actually pick it up in laning phase now without forcing them to pick up a few kills first, which imo is how defensive items SHOULD work.

DepártFeb 20, 20173 votes

Funny how the item has far more potential on demand than any other defense/offense item in the game.

It has the power to deny everything in the game, it makes you invincible on demand. That's game changing.

Not to mention the absurdly powerful active, it comes with decent stats to boot, not completely gold efficient but that's what the active is for.

There's a reason the active cooldown was lengthened, Zhonya's is oppressive to play against when the cd is just over a minute. It often removes the ability to punish someones mistakes, just because they can erase themselves from the map for 2.5 seconds while their team comes to save them from mispositioning.

Don't be foolish, Zhonya's is in a decent spot right now and is still one of the best items in the game.

Pendergast891Feb 20, 20173 votes

The idea of zhonya's was to be able to 'dodge' a burst champion's spell rotation, which makes the CD warranted. The problem that riot has created unfortunately is that most often you're playing against 5 burst champions on the enemy team so the active is much less effective than it used to be.

PennsFeb 19, 20172 votes

If also rather have a ~750 effective HP shield against physical damage + 30 AP + 10% life steal and spell vamp

#nerfmawsquad lel

LauchmelderFeb 19, 20177 votes

I'm actually fine with Maw.

item 3155 needs a gutting as in "remove the Lifeline passive"

PennsFeb 19, 20173 votes

Yeah Id probably be happy with that change already.

xxxDogmanxxxFeb 20, 20171 votes

Sorry, wasn't aware that AD champions had an item that gave them Armor, increased their damage, gave them CDR, and also made them invulnerable for 2 seconds all at the same time.

NineTailedMysticFeb 20, 201713 votes

Yea, you have an item that gives top tier AD, some MR, Out of Combat Movement Speed, and also gives them a spellshield with a laughable downtime.

JavelinJoeFeb 20, 20171 votes

To be fair though, many AP items give a lot of health with a mid-high amount of AP and usually also have some gimmicky passives. item 3151 item 3027 item 3116 item 3030 item 3152

AD (marksmen at least) basically have item 3071 and very, very rarely / champion specific item 3053 item 3022 item 3078 .

Don't get me wrong, EoN needs a few nerfs, but AD marksmen champions having a few MR items is OK given that they have no armor w/ AD items and very limited health w/ AD items. Don't forget, AD items usually are more expensive than AP items. So while many AP items may seem less "stacked" than AD items, you have to remember that AP champions get their items a lot quicker than AD marksmen do.

NineTailedMysticFeb 20, 20176 votes

Most HP/AP items aren't very good. But there's already Mercurial Scimitar and Maw for anti-CC and MR needs and Marksmen shouldn't be abusing Assassin items anyways.

There's no AD/Armor item because of Top Lane.

RavenMagusFeb 20, 20172 votes

{quoted}

There's no AD/Armor item because of Top Lane.

Sunfire is the top lane cancer of choice.

There's no AD/Armor item because of bot lane.

originary91Feb 21, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Most HP/AP items aren't very good. But there's already Mercurial Scimitar and Maw for anti-CC and MR needs and Marksmen shouldn't be abusing Assassin items anyways.

There's no AD/Armor item because of Top Lane.

Let's be fair here. Most AP defensive items were insanely good for quite a long time. Whereas AD champions used to only have Maw and Mercurial, which were both tier 2 items for a lot of champions

the weeabooFeb 20, 20171 votes

Funny how AP champs still get armor AND damage on their items

TheEdgeOfDestinyFeb 20, 20171 votes

Because ability based champions have cooldowns, resource, targeting and other limitations. While AA don't have such things.

TheIronRevenantFeb 20, 20173 votes

Zhonyas is the only real armor/ap item that mages can use

BigBellBruteFeb 20, 20171 votes

Big difference between blocking one spell and then being vulnerable vs being invulnerable to any attacks. Personally, if they rid the game of Zonya's, I wouldn't be upset about it.

TheEdgeOfDestinyFeb 20, 20175 votes

You cannot move or attack/use abilities in stasis.