Look, it's something few people want to admit, but it needs to be said:

DuskDaUmbreon··3 votes·257 views

Divers, juggernauts, and assassins will never be both fair and good at the same time, at least not in their current state.

Why is this? Well, it's because of the inherent designs of each class.

Assassins are designed to burst squishies and get away, right? Same as mages, but more damage and lower CC, and melee range, versus long range?

Well, the thing is: In melee range, there's nothing to miss. Unless it's something based in timing, like Riven or Camille, there's just nothing to screw up once you're there. The fact that you have skill shots is irrelevant, because you're point-blank.

This problem means that there's very little someone can do to outplay the assassin, except for just staying the fuck away (which can only be done so much, given how fast many assassins are, even without something like Youmuu's to speed them up more). This means that either the squishy (ADC, enchanter, or mage) is killed with no way to fight back, or that something has to be done for them to be able to ignore the burst.

What does this lead to? Assassins are either going to do unavoidable and uncounterable damage (which lead to the ADC in 2k17 meme - ADCs just couldn't last against assassins), or they'll be basically useless (What most of them are now).

Is there any balanced assassin? Possibly. Out of all of them, I'd say Evelynn is pretty balanced right now, because her engage requires her to land a skillshot (Her Q) after a noticeable delay (Her W). Her damage goes way too high against squishies late-game (lmao who needs to cook your W when Q>E>Q2 kills them?), but there's noticeable counterplay to her for the rest of the game.

Juggernauts are designed as the mirror of ADCs. They're DPS, but melee instead of ranged, tanky instead of squishy, and their weakness is staying away from them instead of getting to them.

However, as they stand? With that weakness being staying away from them? They'll never feel balanced to fight as any melee champion - They're designed to win melee fights. Again, we run into the same problem we find with assassins - melee range has nothing to dodge. It's entirely on them to screw up at that point. This leads to two outcomes: Either you can kite them, and they lose, or they can't be kited by you, and you die.

Is there any balanced juggernaut? Honestly? I have no idea. Darius is close, but he's not there. He's too impossible to fight as a squishy melee, but with a few tweaks, he would be good.

Divers are basically a mix between the two. They're a bit of everything. They have some burst, some durability, some CC, some DPS... And that's a problem. Generalists aren't good in a 5v5 game where at least 4/5 roles are already taken up by specialists. They have nothing unique. This means they'll either Crowd out specialists by doing what they do and more, or they'll be useless.

Is there any balanced diver? Honestly? No. Because none actually manage to be non-generalists.


Is any of this fixable? I have no idea. Divers would need to be reworked entirely. Juggernauts need to be more like Darius. Assassins need to be more like Eve.

Just my thoughts, though.

4 Comments

YokoNomi2 votes

I don't think every champion is meant to be able to fight any other champion "fairly". The labels were adopted to give a face to what makes each champion different from one another.

Automated Riven1 votes

I feel like your overlooking some things here.

{quoted}

Divers, juggernauts, and assassins will never be both fair and good at the same time, at least not in their current state.

Why is this? Well, it's because of the inherent designs of each class.

Assassins are designed to burst squishies and get away, right? Same as mages, but more damage and lower CC, and melee range, versus long range?

I if you simply look at what they are good at your overlook why it's fair. Yes they have a bunch of burst when they are good but the teamcomps is giving up the cc and zone control that a mage would bring to the table. In fact it almost forces the team to go for all out agression in order to win. There are trade offs for picking an assassin over a mage.

Well, the thing is: In melee range, there's nothing to miss. Unless it's something based in timing, like Riven or Camille, there's just nothing to screw up once you're there. The fact that you have skill shots is irrelevant, because you're point-blank.

Riven and Camille are not assassin's.

This problem means that there's very little someone can do to outplay the assassin, except for just staying the fuck away (which can only be done so much, given how fast many assassins are, even without something like Youmuu's to speed them up more). This means that either the squishy (ADC, enchanter, or mage) is killed with no way to fight back, or that something has to be done for them to be able to ignore the burst.

The outplay to an assassin is less about how the target responds and far more on how the team responds. The reason that assassin's are almost never played in pro play unless they are overturned is because if the team CC's the assassin /shields the adc he just dies without doing anything.

What does this lead to? Assassins are either going to do unavoidable and uncounterable damage (which lead to the ADC in 2k17 meme - ADCs just couldn't last against assassins), or they'll be basically useless (What most of them are now).

Again. Your support and anyone with cc can cause the damage to be both avoidable and counterable.

Is there any balanced assassin? Possibly. Out of all of them, I'd say Evelynn is pretty balanced right now, because her engage requires her to land a skillshot (Her Q) after a noticeable delay (Her W). Her damage goes way too high against squishies late-game (lmao who needs to cook your W when Q>E>Q2 kills them?), but there's noticeable counterplay to her for the rest of the game.

Juggernauts are designed as the mirror of ADCs. They're DPS, but melee instead of ranged, tanky instead of squishy, and their weakness is staying away from them instead of getting to them.

However, as they stand? With that weakness being staying away from them? They'll never feel balanced to fight as any melee champion - They're designed to win melee fights. Again, we run into the same problem we find with assassins - melee range has nothing to dodge. It's entirely on them to screw up at that point. This leads to two outcomes: Either you can kite them, and they lose, or they can't be kited by you, and you die.

Is there any balanced juggernaut? Honestly? I have no idea. Darius is close, but he's not there. He's too impossible to fight as a squishy melee, but with a few tweaks, he would be good.

Juggernauts have tons of counterplay. It is just more macro oriented then micro. And that's fine. The problem with your mindset is that your entirely looking at damage and 1v1 capacity. Juggernauts are extremely susceptible to being outrotated due to their complete lack of mobility and inability to escape ganks. Juggernauts who are ahead can dare you to fight them. But if you move the fight or bring to many people he is fucked.

Divers are basically a mix between the two. They're a bit of everything. They have some burst, some durability, some CC, some DPS... And that's a problem. Generalists aren't good in a 5v5 game where at least 4/5 roles are already taken up by specialists. They have nothing unique. This means they'll either Crowd out specialists by doing what they do and more, or they'll be useless.

Scirmishers and divers are unique. Typically if you have them on your teamcomps you should have a pair of them. The only way they can function is if they dive with two members and kill the backline. They build just enough hp to function as a psudo Frontline when they dive the back. The actually allows you to bypass typical battle lines and allows your carries free access to the backline because everyone had to pull back to peel. They are incredibly powerful in the right teamcomps. The problem is that certain ones are overturned (Camille) and can do all of this by herself when she should need a vi or something helping her out.

Is there any balanced diver? Honestly? No. Because none actually manage to be non-generalists.

Meh. I would argue that Vi is pretty good. Divers have a purpose and are not inherently unbalanced. I just thing people don't build the proper comps with them and as a result they appear too weak until they get buffed too hard. Divers should be paired with either assassin's or other divers to create chaos or completely obliterate the backline. Creating advantages for their teams backline. The counters for that should be enchanter supports or peel heavy tank supports and tanks. Or you can fight fire with fire and play who kills the backline first.


Is any of this fixable? I have no idea. Divers would need to be reworked entirely. Juggernauts need to be more like Darius. Assassins need to be more like Eve.

Just my thoughts, though.

Long story short I disagree with pretty much everything you said.

Ahristocats1 votes

sure

and mages are totally fair lmao

Ixoziel1 votes

Really good post and I thought about this while playing against Rengar who kept oneshotting me out of his ult. I also thought of how I much prefer to play as and against Evelynn. I think Camille is more fair to play against too, although I think the travel time on her hookshot is a little too fast.

I think the best designed type of assassins either have enabling skillshots or delays on their burst. I honestly hate playing against (reworked) Kha'zix, Rengar and Shaco because they can get to you so easily and then their burst is delivered mostly through auto attacks. Even with tabis they usually destroy you very fast if you're a squishy ADC. This means you're reliant on having a support that can protect you from them, like Lulu or Janna. If you don't have a support or your support isn't competent then there's nothing you can do outside of buying tank items (which often makes you unable to do your job) and that's extremely frustrating.

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