It has nothing to do with ADCs:

DuskDaUmbreon··31 votes·1,968 views

The issue is not ADC burst. Or anything of the kind.

The issue is that everyone is doing way too much damage. Everyone but dedicated enchanters.

It's not just the few exceptions or oddities, even. It's not just Cho'gath and Malphite one-shotting squishies of the tanks. It's not just a few assassins. It's not just the Lux and Karma support, or the lethality MF and Jhin ADC, or any one group. It's everyone except the champions that have historically had no damage (Pretty much most enchanters and Ashe) that's doing insane damage. And, even then, their damage has had the same relative spike (Increased by the same multiplier). They went from way too little damage to average damage.

Part of the problem is that everyone's completely polarized. Honestly, unless you have a lot of innate defense in your kit, an armor and an MR item won't do jack shit for you. A lot of it would be fixed if you could opt into an armor and MR item on everyone. But it just does so little to help you against everyone else that's building straight armor and MR that only item 3812, item 3026, item 3102, and item 3157 do anything for squishies. And all of these? Only because of their passives/actives (Granted, DD is only a defensive item of any kind because of it's passive, but, still...). Maw of Malmorticus feels...crappy. Not just a meh upgrade to Hexdrinker, only gotten for better slot efficiency as a 5th item, but...it feels legitimately worthless. The shield might give me an extra hit I can take. But most of the time it doesn't.

And then, on the other end, are the serious tanks. The ones that are basically unkillable. But they also seem to have too much damage. Then again, I suspect that's more because we can't afford to get defensive items. Leona does way too much damage, but if I could actually afford the gold or slot to buy a MR item against her, she most likely wouldn't.


Now, I'll be honest: I have no idea how to fix this. At all. I legitimately have no idea. My only idea so far has been to take 5% damage away from everyone (either by increasing defenses or reducing numbers). Just have everyone do 5% less damage, with the exception of early game basic attacks (because we don't want to completely fuck up farming). I hope that'll help reduce the polarization, because it'd allow you to last a bit longer, meaning armor and MR might be more impactful for squishies...

Or, you could just buff the armor and mr on the squishy defensive items. That might also work.

tl;dr: It's not any one class dealing too much damage. Everyone in the entire game is dealing too much damage for who they are. And that's causing most of the issues.

81 Comments

Elohaven10 votes

You will most likely get downvoted for stating an argument that goes against the bandwagon

Lmao

H1 H0w are Ya8 votes

I've played since season 1 and I have 0 problem with it.

100 times better then when everyone did no damage and Tanks ruled the game

DuskDaUmbreon10 votes

Oh, it's better than tank metas where nobody does anything, for certain. I'd much rather the clown fiesta that the current team fights are over the snooze fests.

But there's a balance between the two extremes we can hit. And slightly lowering damage would pull us close to that. It's fun for the flashy one-shots, but not so fun for others.

Hell, the pacing of the game itself is also fine. I just wish I could last slightly longer in a team fight.

Also, I'm fine, just a bit bored in math class, thanks for asking. :3

GigglesO3 votes

Well that is the thing about extremes, we don't need it to go back to where everyone hit like a wet noodle. There is that huge middle ground between everyone hits like a wet noodle, and everyone dies in one hit.

S3 is generally agreed upon as one of the most balanced seasons. They were in that middle ground where you had decent survive-ability, but if the enemy played correctly, and you didn't build correctly they could still one shot you.

DuskDaUmbreon3 votes

I agree with your core point, but weren't there a dozen other problems with S3? Something about Black Cleaver? I honestly don't remember, I wasn't there.

Every season has had is...rough points, though.

Infernape1 votes

Remember when black cleaver stacking became a thing with Transcendence? It was that but much worse. Oh and Kassadin was the most broken thing in the game. And if I recall correctly Leblanc, Kassadin and Talon still had silences.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

Dude what.

Season 3 was awful just because champs in it were so busted and had so little counterplay.

Vayne fed? GG unless you have kassadin, then you have GG until 40 minutes, then it's GG vayne again.

Assassins were brutally powerful, toplane had 3 champs played in total and midlane was made up of Zed, kassadin, fizz, malzahar and a few others.

Oh and Zed could go in, R-W-E-AA and often kill squishy people.....after 1-2 rounds of W-Q max range.

Lissandra could also kill people in a single rotation of hers.

It was like now but worse, except no marksmen until like 40 minutes into the game.

GigglesO1 votes

{quoted}

Dude what.

Season 3 was awful just because champs in it were so busted and had so little counterplay.

Cause getting instaburst this season has so much counter play?

Vayne fed? GG unless you have kassadin, then you have GG until 40 minutes, then it's GG vayne again.

Ummm we just had that like 3 weeks ago. Also, it wasn't because back then a full tank mundo could chase a vayne out of a fight.

Assassins were brutally powerful, toplane had 3 champs played in total and midlane was made up of Zed, kassadin, fizz, malzahar and a few others.

It sounds like you are describing the current midlane...

Oh and Zed could go in, R-W-E-AA and often kill squishy people.....after 1-2 rounds of W-Q max range.

Right now he doesn't even have to do 1-2 rounds of w q

Lissandra could also kill people in a single rotation of hers.

She can right now as well...

It was like now but worse, except no marksmen until like 40 minutes into the game.

That is probably because you didn't know how to play marksmen correctly? Twitch was my #1 most played champion that season with a 60% winrate over 500 + games... Adc's were far from trash... I think you may be thinking of season 7... because season 3 I even took twitch toplane with exhaust ignite.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

Cause getting instaburst this season has so much counter play?

Instaburst is less common this season compared to season 3, just because th

The top 5 marksmen are Ezreal, varus, vayne,kog and Xayah, out of those only Vayne does real burst without a lot of setup.

Midlane is Azir, TF,Kassa,ryze and malzahar, none which is particularly burst heavy.

Support is Janna, thresh, ali,braum and lulu.

Top is GP, fiora, camilie, gnar and riven....admittedly there is a lot of damage here but at least they don't do the kind of damage season 3 renekton top does with as little counterplay as he had.

Junlge is J4, lee, sejuani, kha6 and shyvana......actually this is pretty similar back to season 3 jungle but switch Seju for ammumu and shyvana for hecarim.

Ummm we just had that like 3 weeks ago. Also, it wasn't because back then a full tank mundo could chase a vayne out of a fight.

Kassadin has never been that strong again as he was back then, and the reason Vayne struggled back then until like 30-40 minutes was because other stuff was more OP until that point.

Full tank mundo did shit about fullbuild Vayne damage, that much has unfortunately not changed x)

It sounds like you are describing the current midlane...

Except we have mages in the midlane now instead of 4 assassins and a mage.

Right now he doesn't even have to do 1-2 rounds of w q

If he has duskblade, but to get kills in lane against anyone with any kind of mental capacity he does.

She can right now as well...

Might have been a tad bit unclear, meant at level 6.

That is probably because you didn't know how to play marksmen correctly? Twitch was my #1 most played champion that season with a 60% winrate over 500 + games... Adc's were far from trash...

And one of my friends who started out in season 2 had 60% winrate on teemo and over 200-300 games played back then too, does not make Teemo particularly OP:

And there is a difference between mediocre and trash, trash doesn't do anything while mediocre has to spend twice the effort as something good for the same result.

I think you may be thinking of season 7... because season 3 I even took twitch toplane with exhaust ignite.

....Only point marksmen were really bad under in season 7 was the lethality meta, rest of the time they might have struggled to get into the games but you could still do well if you played well.

It wasn't constantly out of your hand how things would go.

But once the tank update hit the games were decided by said tanks, marksmen and supports, assassins and divers got pushed out very quickly.

Mages had some impact but it was limited and only for some teamcomps.

Sasogwa8 votes

If damage was busted accross the board, adc's would get oneshot and not be a problem. Which is not the case.

Disembark10 votes

Except there only a problem in the boards circlejerk (legit the SAME people have posted most of the ADC hate topics, often times you’ll see the same person post an ADC hate topic 2+ times a week).

Pretty much not mentioned much by anyone else. Hell Boards is saying “nerf crit” even though the top tier ADC don’t even build crit.

Just shows how much brain usage goes into Boards posts.

Sasogwa1 votes

{quoted}

Except there only a problem in the boards circlejerk (legit the SAME people have posted most of the ADC hate topics, often times you’ll see the same person post an ADC hate topic 2+ times a week).

Pretty much not mentioned much by anyone else. Hell Boards is saying “nerf crit” even though the top tier ADC don’t even build crit.

Just shows how much brain usage goes into Boards posts.

Well crit is still really good, but overall when we see whenever adc's itemization gets nerfed adcs abuse other items, and that melee crit users like tryn, yasuo, yi aren't in that much of a good spot, it would seem that the only logical conclusion is that adc's kits are busted.

Disembark8 votes

Trynd isn’t good for various reasons.

Yasuo is still in an OK spot in mid. GP is top tier crit builder.

Yi has had his highest levels of success via on-hit builds, not crit builds. Crit build is more recent because he’s in a really bad spot overall.

Also some ADC kits are specifically designed to go with crit. How are their kits broken if they are using the items dessigned for them? It’s like saying Camille/Jax kit is broken because they use triforce and are good rn, because Hecarim also uses triforce and isn’t good.

DuskDaUmbreon9 votes

I've seen:

A Xayah repeatedly killed by a SA Kayn Q+AA. Just that. Nothing else. Multiple ADCs beat into the ground by a Lux or Zoe support. ADCs literally one-shot by Malphite (but that's nothing new, though).

Note which ADCs are considered strong. The ones that can burst first, the ones that can attack from a screen away, and the ones that can stun you. Essentially, only the ones that can kill you before you can reach them are actually good right now.

ISLAMICWARRIOR992 votes

{quoted}

If damage was busted accross the board, adc's would get oneshot and not be a problem. Which is not the case.

That is the case tho lol Khazix can aa q w and kill an adc in about .2 seconds

Zed genius7 votes

So the fact that adc's have been busted for about a whole year now means that they are not the problem and everyone else is?

DuskDaUmbreon7 votes

ADCs really haven't been busted. Different classes of them have at certain times.

Worlds: We all know it was Ardent. Ardent was OP, and it was keeping hypercarries OP.

Lethality meta: Lethality was OP. Hence, why it's the Lethality meta, not the Lethality-building ADC meta. The lethality ADCs were a direct result of the meta. Not the other way around.

Recently: Damage has just been OP. Like...seriously. Damage has just been through the roof. And that's what the post is drawing attention to.

Marshbouy1 votes

Worlds: We all know it was Ardent. Ardent was OP, and it was keeping hypercarries OP.

but the boards told me it was ADCs breaking ardent censer. /s

DuskDaUmbreon3 votes

Well, specifically, it was hyper carries synergizing with supports who were abusing ardent...But it all boiled down to ardent.

Critmaster Garen5 votes

{quoted}

The issue is not ADC burst. Or anything of the kind.

the issue is that riot has buffed the fuck out of crit items almost a year ago, and adc have been overtuned ever since.

this isnt a problem of season 8. its a problem of season 7 that carried over into season 8 because it wasnt addressed.

not since the rune update, but for a whole fucking year. theyve already been op before preseason, before the rune changes.

yes, the issue is adc. the issue is that their items are too cheap and their builds come online too fast. the fact that riot removed melee/ranged splits from keystones that need it didnt help. fervor of battle stacked faster on melee champions than on ranged champions. press the attack works better for adc than bruisers, because it doesnt have this melee/ranged split and marksmen have an easier time sticking to a target for 3 attacks.

A girl Supp Main4 votes

When I play Janna with Spellthief and W max, I feel like I'm a mage support now. Help.

DuskDaUmbreon1 votes

Why max your W though? You need to max your E first, so that it doesn't have a cooldown longer than some ultimates.

I suppose maxing W isn't a bad idea, though. But spellthief's would take so much mana to do properly...

But, I do have to agree. I had Coin and EWQ max. I still felt like I was pre-runes Sona.

I even shut down a Riven, goddamn it. And not even by KSing, either.

Salson3 votes

Crit items are too cheap. It literally makes Marksman better than Mages, Ap Assassins and Fighters. Either lower their item prices or increase Crit prices to even the playing field.

DuskDaUmbreon2 votes

ADC damage items are also damned expensive.

item 3031 is 3400 item 3072 is 3700 item 3812 is 3500 item 3153 is 3400 item 3508 is 3400...

Most actually damaging items for ADCs are super expensive. And crit is worthless without them.

Salson4 votes

item 3165 item 3020 item 3285 item 3151 item 3135 item 3089 - 16750 item 3031 item 3087 item 3094 item 3006 item 3072 item 3033 - 16000 item 3078 item 3053 item 3748 item 3075 item 3047 item 3065 - 17233

I mean sure, if you want to do it like that: item 3089 - 3800 > 3400 item 3285 - 3200 > 3000 item 3748 and item 3074 - 3500 > 3200 item 3053 - 3200 > 3000

That would actually make it fair.

DuskDaUmbreon1 votes

Of course, though, you forget that many of those items are intended for late-game. But can also function on their own.

And also that mages and bruisers start functioning with their Morello/Trinity. ADCs don't start functioning until their Zeal+IE.

Besides. This has nothing to do with the discussion.

Discussion=Everyone is broken Discussion≠ADCs aren't broken.

Salson2 votes

Except everything isn't broken. Most Fervor users are shit, those who aren't like Camille rely on bullying those who are.

The only broken things in the game are Critical and Jungle in early game. Crit is basically Marksman's whole power, as item 3035 is rather shit, and defensive items aren't even mandatory. Jungle ganks like mad, ruining the game for whoever is unlucky enough go get targeted by a premade.

DuskDaUmbreon3 votes

Except damage is fucking insane on literally every champion who isn't Ashe or a dedicated enchanter. And that's only because their damage before was too low to be made insane. It's still way ahead of where it should be

Damage is broken. Not ADC damage. Not assassin damage. Every. Single. Class.

Your damage can be way too fucking high with your inherent kit being fine. Just because the rest of you is balanced doesn't mean your damage is.

And, besides, a lot of junglers right now don't come online until level 6. Shyvana is super strong and practically useless pre-6. Eve has serious issues being good pre-6, Kayn has a hard time doing much pre-6...

Salson2 votes

Except damage has to be broken. A Marksman will melt your team unless you somehow manage to one-shot them. If you nerf damage for everyone by 5%, then Markmen have to nerfed by 15%.

And finally Ashe is fine. Ashe Sivir Jhin Varus Caitlyn are all fine. Twitch Tristana KogMaw are broken, and that doesn't make the others weak.

And, besides, a lot of junglers right now don't come online until level 6. Shyvana is super strong and practically useless pre-6. Eve has serious issues being good pre-6, Kayn has a hard time doing much pre-6...

They still show up to apply pressure. They don't have to kill you to give the opponent a 10 CS lead and waste 150 of your mana.

GigglesO3 votes

If you lower everyones damage, adc's don't kill as quickly, so all it does is draw out a fight and allow more micro expression through micro movements.

Currently damage is so high that adc's dont' have to kite and make micro movements. The reason why "divers and bruisers" were so broken in early seaons is because they aren't as influenced by those micro movements via tank stats. We have gone just a little too far towards damage. We need to lower it just enough that adc's have to do those micro movements. They need to do them because that is the only skill an adc really has for skill expression.

With damage how it is they are literally just fountain lasers. They don't have to do anything except click on you to win.

GigglesO3 votes

You won't get the boards to agree because of the flawed reason below. If all damage was lower adcs would survive longer, but you would also have a longer opportunity to kill them.

GigglesO3 votes

Well I was upvoting your posts, but then you said Last Wisperor is shit... So here is where I have to disagree.

The only reason "Last whisperer" is "trash" is because noone is building armor, because if you do, you will just have everyone building armor pen to completely negate it.

So its either super usless because noone has armor, or Broken as fuck because it completely can fuck over armor builders.

Salson1 votes

Not sure about the math, but I think you can skip it if no enemy has over 100-150 bonus armor. So item 3047 and one more armor item are your best bets. The problem is item 3036 hitting a lot of fighters quite hard because it scales with health.

Tbh, I wouldn't mind it being 45% again if Crit itself got nerfed.

Like Twitch does ok damage to Maokai Now if just somehow did 5% less damage to Darius and Thresh And 10% less to Katarina Jinx Syndra The game would be in an ok spot.

PB4UAME1 votes

You mean they have the cheapest, while simultaneously by far the strongest and best scaling core build of any class*

DuskDaUmbreon1 votes

I mean, it's not like I listed some of the higher expense items or anything.

If you only buy Zeal items, you're basically inting. Zeal items are fairly cheap, but they also do jack shit by themselves.

vgamedude2 votes

ADCs are the problem because they do even more of that ridiculous damage than others and it's in the form of unmissable autos from range unlike everyone else.

DuskDaUmbreon5 votes

They legitimately don't do as much as others though.

And please don't try to derail the discussion. Okay? The discussion has nothing to do with who is more broken. But rather to draw attention to the fact that all damage is broken.

vgamedude1 votes

{quoted}

They legitimately don't do as much as others though.

And please don't try to derail the discussion. Okay? The discussion has nothing to do with who is more broken. But rather to draw attention to the fact that all damage is broken.

How am I derailing? You said adcs aren't the problem and I'm saying they are. Not everyone is required to agree with you.

DuskDaUmbreon3 votes

I specifically said that everyone (Read: The absolute, total entirety of literally every champion in the game known as League of Legends, produced by Riot Games, on this date of February 5th, 2018 AD) has too much damage.

My title could better be worded as "ADCs aren't the only problem", but simply putting that would result in too little attention. So I went with the title that drew people in for discussion. By stating that everyone is broken, I have inherently stated that ADCs are broken, as ADCs are contained within the set of all champions within the game known as League of Legends, produced by Riot Games, on this date of February 5th, 2018 AD.

vgamedude1 votes

{quoted}

I specifically said that everyone (Read: The absolute, total entirety of literally every champion in the game known as League of Legends, produced by Riot Games, on this date of February 5th, 2018 AD) has too much damage.

My title could better be worded as "ADCs aren't the only problem", but simply putting that would result in too little attention. So I went with the title that drew people in for discussion. By stating that everyone is broken, I have inherently stated that ADCs are broken, as ADCs are contained within the set of all champions within the game known as League of Legends, produced by Riot Games, on this date of February 5th, 2018 AD.

And I'M saying I don't have to agree with that statement. I only do to an extent but no one comes anywhere even CLOSE to how ridiculous ADCs are.

Executioner1 votes

But no one can miss auto attacks, so I dont see your point. Many Mages and many supports are ranged, and yet they have these so called unmissable autos.

vgamedude1 votes

{quoted}

But no one can miss auto attacks, so I dont see your point. Many Mages and many supports are ranged, and yet they have these so called unmissable autos.

Mages and supports entire damage isn't centered around auto attacks.....

Executioner1 votes

Doesn't matter, they all auto attack just like many melee champions use auto attacks. But what makes them different? Ranged, kites, and items. That is the defining factor, not this hes broken bullshit. Tryndamere, nasus, jax, and plenty of others hit hard too.

You just want something to whine about, and not add. Do all classes do shit tons of damage? Fuck yes they do. Am I gonna bitch about it some mage that hit every ability on me? No, he played his champion well, where I fucked up, and went full retard.

vgamedude1 votes

{quoted}

Doesn't matter, they all auto attack just like many melee champions use auto attacks. But what makes them different? Ranged, kites, and items. That is the defining factor, not this hes broken bullshit. Tryndamere, nasus, jax, and plenty of others hit hard too.

You just want something to whine about, and not add. Do all classes do shit tons of damage? Fuck yes they do. Am I gonna bitch about it some mage that hit every ability on me? No, he played his champion well, where I fucked up, and went full retard.

No what makes them different is ADCs have a load of fucking items that make their auto attacks do more damage than abilities and the other champs dont, at the very least melee based auto attackers have to be right on top of you and slows or anything make it where they cant reliably hit you.

You just agreed with me in your second paragraph, that's my point, at least if a mage hits me with something he had to actually hit it not just fucking right click me, and while lots of classes do alot of damage none do quite so much as the ADC does and ESPECIALLY not with the same level of reliability.

And pointing out that mages and supports auto attack is just silly, you go sit in range of an adc and auto attack trade with them and see where you get. Their auto attack is mainly for csing and early game.

Executioner1 votes

I never agreed with you on the second paragraph. Not once did you mention abilities being used. I mentioned them being used, first and foremost.

The reason I say is because even they cannot miss an auto attack. Are they weak? Of course, however can we dodge an auto? Of course we cannot dodge an auto. Also yes that is what makes them reliable.

For reliability, they sacrifice defense, however what fills that void for the defense? A support. It's a combo of things that make them the way they are, not just them.

Also back to your original point, no one misses an auto.

vgamedude1 votes

{quoted}

I never agreed with you on the second paragraph. Not once did you mention abilities being used. I mentioned them being used, first and foremost.

The reason I say is because even they cannot miss an auto attack. Are they weak? Of course, however can we dodge an auto? Of course we cannot dodge an auto. Also yes that is what makes them reliable.

For reliability, they sacrifice defense, however what fills that void for the defense? A support. It's a combo of things that make them the way they are, not just them.

Also back to your original point, no one misses an auto.

You think a kog that builds wits end and or tabi / mallet is sacrificing defense compared to say a mid laner? Hell no, and ADCs can far more easily fit in sustain whether it be BORK, Bloodthirster, or just having fleet footwork that scales with crit and the like.

They sacrifice nothing for their reliability and damage that's the issue.

DuskDaUmbreon4 votes

You don't have to. But doing otherwise is to be wrong.

Metal Janna2 votes

I main support Orianna, and ever since Runes Reforged damage has been super high. Before RR, Orianna did chip damage with her Q to make the enemy ADC pay for each CS with a tiny sliver of health that would eventually add up to an outplay opportunity with my W and E and one teammate. Now, she does so much damage that catching the enemy ADC can allow me to burst half their HP with a single combo. At the same time, even Alistar supports DPS now, so positioning is now god. On the ADC side of things, Vayne and Draven can now break through my shield in one auto. Yay.

Glory972 votes

Yes I do agree with "everyone does to much damage" but I can't agree on the statement "adcs are not the problem". The power of the crit build is unmatched past 2-3 items. The crit build allows adcs to match up to assassins/mages in terms of burst-damage, while their nature is still dps. Their damage-output is unconditional, no skillshots, cooldown, manacost. Statiks alone is enough to match the waveclear of mages. And lifesteal by continously attacking/ and a teammember with locket can make up for their weak defensive and make them unkillable. And keep in mind that the itembuild that allows adcs to excell at literally everything is one of the cheapest in the game. Yes I understand that "they have a weak early game" -which is not as weak as it's supposed to be right now, but nevertheless I'm just not ok with a class that outclasses everything else in the rift once they gotten 2 items.

DuskDaUmbreon1 votes

What I should have said was "ADCs aren't the only problem". Not "ADCs aren't a problem". But whatever.

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