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Let's talk about Malzahar [Analysis, rework suggestion]

Hyrum Graff··13 votes·2,709 views

Pre-rework, I played Malz mid and support. I wasn't a main, but he was a regular part of my champ pool, probably top 10. I have rank 4 with him, which would probably be 5 if you counted games before champ mastery was introduced. Since the rework, I no longer enjoy playing Malzahar, and have done so maybe 4-5 times (one mid, one supp, a few aram).

tldr

Q, E, and R changes were great; P was good but, due to nerfs, no longer working as intended; W is real bad and has such a large role in the kit that it makes the whole thing feel bad, even though everything else was actually really successful.

Solution: fix P (longer duration, less dmg reduction), rework W (combination of new and old passive, and you choose where Voidlings spawn).

Table of Contents

  1. Why Malz needed a rework in the first place: goals and direction
  2. Changes that have been made, and whether they were successful
  3. Goals for the rework, and to what extent they were achieved
  4. Ways to improve the current kit without bringing back the issues with the old one

1. Issues, Goals, and Direction

Riot did a good job explaining these, so I'm just going to quote the direction thread:

{quoted}

Generally speaking, Malzahar is a relatively low agency champion by virtue of his limited range and mobility. In order for him to succeed as he is on Live, he's balanced around being able to pretty reliably drop a full spell combo on whatever's in front of him and watch them die. We'd like to make it so he doesn't necessarily feel quite so much like a burst champion, but in order to make that happen, we need to give him a bit of breathing room so that it feels like he can comfortably navigate the fast pace game that League of Legends is today.

And the patch notes:

Malzahar faces a constant dilemma: never use his abilities in lane or push constantly. This playstyle causes Malzahar to be very binary and non interactive; either he has enough AP to drop his spells on a wave and leave lane or he slowly pushes out, leaving him exposed to constant ganks. As well, the nature of his ultimate - cancelable by any CC - makes Malzahar’s power curve binary by necessity: you either stop his channel or somebody dies.

In both cases, what Malzahar needs is leeway; a brief window of protection. Adding that window allows us to dial back on Malzahar’s burst and wave clear while giving him more sustained threat in a larger fight. Malz’s actions shouldn’t feel inevitable, but at least he’ll feel less bad about trying to make plays.

He’ll still be the consistently damaging Voidling master, but he should feel better about brawling near the frontlines when he brings more sustained cooldowns and a little bit of protection.

In summary,

  1. Laning vs Malz was boring, since he'd just instaclear the wave.
  2. Fighting Malz was unfun; getting 100-0'd while suppressed sucks. but
  3. If Malz couldn't do ^those, he was pretty useless.
    • I'll add: It was/is especially frustrating to have your ult interrupted by the champion you're ulting. ex: You ult draven right as he casts stand aside, immediately canceling your ult.

2. Changes and their impact

I've paraphrased for brevity, and left out changes to mana costs, which had more to do with AP itemization changes than Malz's play patterns.

Q: Call of the Void

  • Damage down by ~1/4
  • Silence down by 1/3
  • Cooldown down by 1/3

E: Space AIDS Malefic Visions

  • Base damage down by 1/3, AP ratio down by 1/8
  • Damaging a target with Q or R refreshes the duration

R: Nether Grasp

  • Creates a null zone under the target, that lasts for 5 seconds
    • Reminder: Suppression lasts for 2.5 seconds
  • Flat damage changed to %HP, dealt in an AOE beneath the target

These abilities haven't changed since patch 6.9 (the initial rework).

This is a great set of changes.

Q & E: The lowered damage means Malz is less bursty and needs to stick around a little in order to clear waves, but the lowered Q cooldown and the E refresh means he can still trade effectively. It also adds a bit of mastery to his kit (managing E's duration), and makes the boring "put E on them and walk away" harass less potent if he misses the (skillshot) Q.

The biggest downside is that there's no visual feedback to show the refresh, which may not be confusing to opponents who haven't combed through the tooltips.

R: Lower damage means Malz can't 100-0 you while you're suppressed. But, there's a bunch of upsides for Malz, too:

  • The null zone lasts even if the suppress is interrupted, so your ult isn't 100% useless even if it gets canceled right away.
    • It also lasts longer than the suppression, so you can keep doing damage if your allies can lock the target down. This lets it stay strong in teamfights and ganks without being stupidly OP in 1v1s.
  • It's AOE damage based on the target's max hp, so it doesn't feel terrible to ult the enemy frontline.
    • Playing safe feels better; you no longer feel like you have to dive and ult the enemy carry in order to be effective.

Passive: Void Shift

Patch 6.9

  • New passive added. Basically a Banshee's Veil for spells and AAs, that lingers for 1s after it gets popped. Patch 6.10
  • Cooldown changes that don't matter. Patch 6.15
  • Cooldown nerf that don't matter.
  • Linger reduced to 0.25s from 1s

As much hate as this passive gets, in my opinion the original idea of it was great. Having a second of CC immunity makes your ult so much more reliable, which makes up for your lowered burst. And in teamfights when you don't have your ult, it lets you get in range to hit your E, then back off and hit your Q on the way out to refresh the duration. Old Malz couldn't do that without risking his life, so he just had to poke with Q (and sometimes W).

The patch 6.15 nerf threw that idea away, and basically just makes him stronger as a support and harder to catch out. (To be clear, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with Malz support, but I do think there's something wrong with the play pattern of "try to avoid interacting with the enemy until my passive is up, then win a trade by brute force.")

I also recognize that 1 second of basically full immunity from the enemy team is ridiculously OP. However, I'm not convinced that Malz needs 90% damage reduction for the passive to do its job; if Malz lost some damage reduction, he could get back a bit of the passive duration.

W: Void Swarm

Patch 6.9

  • Malzahar spawns a Voidling, which lasts for 12 seconds. For the first 8 seconds, he spawns another each time an existing one attacks a champion or large monster, or assists in killing a unit. This can only happen once per Voidling.
    • New voidlings last for whatever's left of the original 12 seconds.
    • When 3+ Voidling are active, they all gain bonus attack speed.
  • Voidlings deal physical damage (scales with AD) and magic damage (scales with AP). Damage is halved vs monsters and tripled vs low hp minions.
  • Voidlings gain bonus ms toward priority targets (marked with †)
  • Attack priority
    • Target of R †
    • Enemies in R's Null Zone †
    • Affected by E (champions first, then minions) †
    • Nearest target
    • Removed: Malzahar's autoattack target
  • Removed: Leash range Patch 6.23
  • Change to a 2-charge system
  • Voidling health changed to 3
  • Damage buffed
  • Window of time to spawn additional voidlings down to 3s from 8s
  • Voidling assists no longer spawn more voidlings
  • Removed triple damage to minions below 20% health
  • Added triple damage to minions affected by E
  • Removed bonus attack speed when 3+ Voidlings are active.
  • Voidlings only get bonus MS towards priority targets when they're within 600 units of Malzahar Patch 7.3
  • New: Voidlings spawn after a 0.35s delay.
  • New: 1s cooldown between casts.
  • New Effect: Past 600 distance, Voidlings move more slowly the farther they are from Malzahar.

Oh, boy. This ability right here. This is the problem child. Let's dive in:

  1. It reads like a short novel. 102 words on the wiki. I consider myself one of the more knowledgable League players, and I didn't even fully understand it until just now, after spending half an hour re-writing the patch notes. And even now, I doubt I'll remember it all in the heat of the moment, next time I face Malzahar.
  • Complexity makes an ability hard to optimize, and that's a good thing. For example, Ekko's stun creates tons of interesting decisions and outplay moments for both Ekko and his opponents. But you can't even try to optimize an ability that you can't understand.
  1. It's frustrating and unsatisfying to use. Playing Malz, sometimes I cast W and suddenly have an army of Voidlings mauling my opponent's face. Other times, my one little voidy dies without getting off a single attack. Either way, I don't feel like I outplayed or was outplayed.
  • Part of this is related to point 1. Now I know it's important for me to have my E on them and to stay within 600 units, but there's no way I'm going to find that out without poring over the tooltip. Does my opponent know to hang back and avoid the Voidling, but only for the first 3 seconds? Let's hope not.
  • It's also related to luck. The ability's damage is quite nearly doubled if the first voidling gets in an AA at 2.9s instead of 3.1s.
  • It just generally sucks to have such a large part of your damage be so far outside your control.
  1. It's unduly strong vs melee champions. Particularly in the early game and in the bot lane, it's really hard to make the ability strong vs ranged champs without making it oppressive vs melee, who don't have the choice to throw spells while kiting back. Leona thought she was going to be able to engage during this laning phase? Lol. (I'm definitely not a salty Leona main).

Stats

Patch 6.14

  • Movement speed reduced to 335 from 340.
  • Attack range reduced to 500 from 550.

No strong feelings about these, particularly since voidlings no longer follow Malz's AAs. They're different balance-wise, but I think either would be acceptable to balance around.

3. Rework goals: Achieved?

In the malzahar direction thread, Repertoir shared some criteria for what a successful rework would look like. Let's do a spot check and see how it's done.

{quoted}

Here's some stuff we're happy with about Malzahar and are unlikely to change:

  • Functions well as a reliable anti-mobility/anti-assassin via Nether Grasp (R).
  • Has really fun/unique farming patterns via Malefic Visions (E).

I'm going to give these both a check. Farming with E is still interesting (if slightly harder), and Zed thinks he's gonna dive you at 6? What a dumbassassin.

{quoted}

Here's some stuff we're less happy with and are actively trying to resolve:

  • A simple W>E>R is often enough to eliminate or remove enemies, leaving them little opportunity to act outside of not getting into his range.
  • Malzahar is inherently low agency, and is historically balanced in a way that means he forces similarly low agency situations upon opponents.
  • Voidlings are a cool and unique element of the kit that often don't play a large role in his success throughout the game (AD Malz aside).

Here, there's less success. E>W>R won't boop someone, but W>E has a similar effect, early game. Malz got some agency with the Q, E, and R changes, but a lot of power was shifted to his Voidlings, over which he doesn't have much control. And while Voidlings certainly play a large role in his success, it's not in a way that feels good to the Malz player.

{quoted}

Here's what I hope will be true of Malzahar following his changes:

  • Malzahar's kit will feel familiar to Malzahar players; he has a lot of cool spells/visuals, and we don't want to change that.
  • Malzahar will feel less like a burst caster to everyone.
  • Malzahar will continue to be low range and low mobility, but he will feel less vulnerable.
  • AP Malzahar players will care about using their Voidlings correctly.
  • AD Malzahar will still be a decent option.
  • Malzahar's kit will have clearer signals for how he could have played better and/or how opponents could have played better against it.
  • Playing Malzahar still won't be a mechanically intense/exhausting experience.

These were mostly successful. However, there are still many clarity issues around Voidlings (discussed in the previous section) and AD Malz seems to be dead. Maybe it's bad, or maybe it's so similar to AP that there's no reason to pick it; I'm not sure.

Malz support box

I don't think there's anything inherently bad about Malzahar support. The real questions are:

  • Is Malz support healthy for the game?

I don't think so. Voidling strength vs melee champions makes it really hard for melee champions to play League of Legends during laning phase. Q and R are fine abilities in bot lane, but if Malz is ever a strong support because of his E, there's probably something wrong (winning a lane from spamming point and click damage is not a fun thing #pantheon).

  • Can Malz be balanced for both support and mid?
    • If not, which is a better choice to balance around?

I think it is possible to balance Malz as a primary mid and a decent-but-niche support, as he was before the rework. His E has a lot more play around it when Malz is farming, but his ult is more interesting in a 2v2 lane. Overall I'd give the edge to mid lane, since you use E a lot more than R. If adc bot is ever not mandatory, Malz bot would probably be the most interesting.

Overall, I think it's a problem if Malz support makes Malz mid unviable (as it currently does in pro play), but not vice versa (although if Malz supp is viable, that's great).

The verdict: Unfortunately, the one bad part (W) is so central to the new kit that it overshadows an otherwise well-done and successful rework.

On the upside, this means a little more work will go a long way: Malz would be a really good candidate for small-scale work (like Shyvana, Alistar, or Amumu).

4. Looking forward / Rework part II

Here's what I would do to fix Malz. I've estimated some numbers to give you an idea what I'm going for, but numbers are really hard to do without playtesting; please don't focus on the specific numbers too much.

Passive: Void Shift

  • Damage reduction reduced to 45% from 90%
  • Linger increased to 0.5s from 0.25s

R: Nether Grasp

  • Refreshes passive on cast

These changes give Malz a slightly longer window to set up trades in lane, without making it feel pointless to try to poke him down. They also make R much more reliable, so it is...

  • Easier to balance in a teamfight scenario (where it's often interrupted immediately) vs a 1v1 scenario (where it's seldom interrupted at all).
  • Less frustrating for Malz, since the ult can no longer be interrupted by its target.

The damage reduction nerf is for power, and so the ult isn't effective as a defensive reaction (eg, to a Veigar ult).

[Updated] W: Void Portal

Malzahar creates an untargetable rift to the void that lasts 30 seconds. On Malzahar's fourth subsequent ability cast, the Rift transforms into a Void Portal, which lasts for 12 seconds. The Portal spawns one Voidling immediately and -- for the first 3 seconds of its lifetime -- spawns another the first time a Voidling attacks a champion or large monster (visually, the Portal collapses after 3 seconds). Voidlings share the Portal's duration. Voidlings cannot walk farther than 500 units from the Portal unless their target is affected by Nether Grasp or Malefic Visions. They gain 100% bonus movement speed within that range but lose 10% per 100 units past it.

  • Range: 800
  • Cooldown: 20 / 19 / 18 / 17 / 16

E: Malefic Visions

[New] Autoattacking a champion or large monster affected by Malefic Visions extends the duration by 1 second (never longer than the initial 4s).

Here's the bread and butter of the changes.

  • Voidling spawn, while not actually that much simpler, is now much easier to visualize and understand without studying the tooltip, due to visual effects on Void Rifts / Portals.
  • By forcing Malz to pick a location for Voidlings to spawn from, we balance his effectiveness vs ranged and melee.
    • Although Voidlings tend to be more effective against melee champs, Void Rift placement is more effective against ranged.
      • If you put a rift under the enemy caster minions, it's in position to either waveclear or fight your ranged opponent.
      • If a melee opponent jumps on you, kiting back towards your tower also means kiting away from your Voidlings.
  • Delaying the spawn takes away quite a bit of power, which allows us to add the other buffs.
    • It also provides a window of power to play aggressively vs Malz, particularly for melee champs. The current long cooldown on Voidlings means there's a window where Malz can't really fight you, but he can usually keep a voidling in his back pocket to force you to back off. Now, if he burns his E, you've got a window where Voidlings can't stray far from their portal (unless Malz ults).
  • Now Malz needs to cast his other spells in order to spawn Voidlings; Malz supp doesn't have a mana restore mechanism.
    • This doesn't mean supp is automatically bad; it's just another lever for tweaking his balance between lanes.
  • The boost for autoattacking gives Malz a reason to stay in fighting range of his opponent instead of dropping an E and running away.
    • Also, maybe it lets AD malz can make a comeback.
  • Most importantly, it creates a lot of gameplay for both Malz and his opponent.

Say Malz mid has a Void Rift near the enemy caster minions, that's one cast from activation. The enemy laner knows this, and wants to avoid getting E'd and zoned off the wave. They can back off until the rift times out, or they can push the wave, and force Malz to use his spells to clear the wave.

Both Malz mid and support have a pattern to maintain constant pressure: create a new void rift on cooldown (every 20 seconds). Cast Q and E to get this rift to 2 charges and spawn a Voidling from the previous one. By the time that voidling times out, E is off cooldown again, so you can spawn the second Voidling with another QE.. or wait 10 seconds until your W is back off cooldown. If that went over your head and you want a visual, here's what I wrote when I was figuring it out for myself, to make sure there'd actually be a time when you could fight Malz.

Turns out it's a great pattern for pushing the lane hard, or forcing the enemy botlane to stay back... but in bot it's really mana intensive, and in mid, if your opponent can force a fight, they can mess up your timing and create a window when you've got no Voidlings to fight with. Trade-offs and counterplay!

What if it turned out this rework is underpowered/overpowered?

Aside from numbers tweaks, if it's overtuned I'd remove the passive refresh on ult, which is nice but not essential. If it's undertuned, I'd make R count as 4 spellcasts (ie, instantly activate any Void Rifts).

Closing thoughts

Please, leave feedback! Do you play Malz? If so, do these changes sound fun to you? If not, do these changes sound more fun to play against?

Remember, no idea is perfect on the first shot; if you like some parts of this but not others, that's good feedback, too!

edit: I made this before reading the 7.8 notes, so it's based on Voidlings with 3 hp, not 2. Voidlings shouldn't need to

39 Comments

Arkale4 votes

I feel like this would be a significant nerf to him.

While it definitely gives the possibility for a lot more interactive and strategic gameplay, you are taking voidlings out of the fight in most situations except for maybe dropping w then ult.

Malzahar's current strength lies mainly in his voidlings and their ability to swarm a target. Particularly without the enemy being able to react (as unhealthy as that is) since if they have time to move away from the spawn then they have time to prepare to position away from it or attack the 1 or 2 max voidlings you could get out with it, they would never be caught by them.

The old malz passive worked because the voidlings were much stronger health and damage-wise individually and because you could still save up a voidling charge until you started a fight (where it would spawn close to the last used ability). With your suggestion, you would get out 1-2 weak (current) voidlings that would be prepared for by the enemy. Not to mention, Riot nerfed the spawning mechanic to only last 3 seconds on voidlings because they gave him a second charge to use so that he could get out a decent amount of these weaker voidlings that are only strong in swarms.

Unfortunately this would also kill off what's left of jungle malz (which revolves around voidlings) because you could only get voidlings to spawn with a minimum of 2 abilities after a long time of using the same ability 4 times at which point you would have very little hp if any to continue to the next camp and try to spawn another voidling.

I have a couple of suggestions for malz (as bad as they may be) which I will quote here for what it's worth:

If you want to keep most of his current kit, you could take away the ap scaling on voidlings completely and give them higher ad scalings, while also buffing the ap scalings on his malefic visions and call of the void so that ap malz doesn't suffer, but voidlings wouldn't be so strong when you aren't focusing on them.

Or he could get a semi-rework where voidlings became his passive again, the malefic visions and call of the void could keep the current damage (maybe increasing the base damage of malefic visions) move null zone of his ult nerfing it's damage and giving it a small buff (a slow, or empowering malz/voidlings that are inside), and moving his passive to his ult so that it only activates when he's ulting that way it does what it was originally intended to do while giving his ult back it's flat damage.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

[{quoted}](name=DJ Malzahar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1syQyMmG,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-04-19T05:36:57.234+0000)

I feel like this would be a significant nerf to him.

In this iteration, probably. I'm not really shooting for balance with the numbers here, since that kind of thing is really difficult to figure out without playtests.

While it definitely gives the possibility for a lot more interactive and strategic gameplay, you are taking voidlings out of the fight in most situations except for maybe dropping w then ult.

I'm not really a fan of what it does to his laning patterns, but making W a charge system could help with this for teamfights. And/or, significantly lowering the cooldown at later levels (eg, scale down to 10 or 11 seconds).

Malzahar's current strength lies mainly in his voidlings and their ability to swarm a target. Particularly without the enemy being able to react (as unhealthy as that is) since if they have time to move away from the spawn then they have time to prepare to position away from it or attack the 1 or 2 max voidlings you could get out with it, they would never be caught by them.

The old malz passive worked because the voidlings were much stronger health and damage-wise individually and because you could still save up a voidling charge until you started a fight (where it would spawn close to the last used ability). With your suggestion, you would get out 1-2 weak (current) voidlings that would be prepared for by the enemy. Not to mention, Riot nerfed the spawning mechanic to only last 3 seconds on voidlings because they gave him a second charge to use so that he could get out a decent amount of these weaker voidlings that are only strong in swarms.

In this iteration, since enemies have more time to deal with the Voidlings, it would be much more OK to give them back a bit of hp. Or increase the speed boost radius around Portals, or the amount of time new Voidlings can spawn for. Or make more voidlings spawn initially...

Point being, there's lots of ways to keep Voidlings relevant even with the delay -- they just turn into more of a zoning tool than your primary damage source, unless you can somehow corral the enemy onto them. Kind of like Anivia's ult. I'm more trying to sell the concept of delayed Voidling spawn at a predetermined location, than the other particulars of this iteration (I went through several other variations of when Voidlings spawn and where they can go; landed on this one mostly because it was very similar to live, but much more understandable).

Unfortunately this would also kill off what's left of jungle malz (which revolves around voidlings) because you could only get voidlings to spawn with a minimum of 2 abilities after a long time of using the same ability 4 times at which point you would have very little hp if any to continue to the next camp and try to spawn another voidling.

I thought about this, and I don't actually think it would! It would change how jungle malz plays, and probably make AD Malz more viable there.

The reason being, the E buff / duration extension on AA. It'd never run out on red/blue/gromp/scuttle. You might have a tough time pre-3, but you can get 3 off of the camps I just mentioned. Then, a typical clear pattern would look like:

  • Drop a W on camp 1
  • Go take camp 2 with 2 Q's and an E.
  • Go back and take camp 1 with your voidlings (and an E on the large monster so the voidlings will focus it and swarm).

Similarly, while it'll take a bit longer to set up, a portal or 2 under drag should spawn quite a swarm.

I have a couple of suggestions for malz (as bad as they may be) which I will quote here for what it's worth:

I'll respond to these later, it's really late here and I'm kinda dozing off as I write this.

Arkale2 votes

Small note: Just realized what you meant with

Autoattacking a champion or large monster affected by Malefic Visions extends the duration by 1 second (never longer than the initial 4s).

Originally thought that you meant that the total duration couldn't be longer than 4 seconds and got really confused.

FiddlesOnTheRoof3 votes

I played a TON of Malz pre rework. I just want the rework reverted honestly. I appreciate all the work you put in to this, but I just want old Malz back. I didn't enjoy him immediately following the rework, even when he was busted. I liked the old w. It made him good against tanks. I liked the old burst. I liked the old scaling. I just hope he gets the Kog'Maw treatment.

lightdragoon882 votes

Once the changes in 6.23 came around...Malzahar was destroyed.

Turning his W into an ammo system with 3 HP and only being able to multiply on champs hit within 3 seconds destroyed any and all wave-clearing power he had and pretty much forced Malzahar to only used his W on champs.

And the only place where you focus on champs instead of minions....is support. So then Malzahar became a support only champ and was oppressive that nerfs after nerfs came to him which then destroyed mid/jungle even more.

Even Riot 'finally' understanding this now.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/gQ1uBNLG-quick-gameplay-thoughts-april-11?comment=00140000

We'd like to make it so Malz is a decent solo laner again. We also don't think his support play's been healthy for the game, so don't plan on trying to support both solo Malz and support Malz. As a starting point we want to support newly discovered playstyles wherever we can. That stops being the case if they lack appropriate counterplay or are really damaging to game health in other ways though.

In terms of timing on work to get Malz back into solo lanes I'm not sure though sorry, it's behind the mid-season stuff for focused work right now and might be for a while.

Honestly at this point they should either revert back to before 6.23 changes or revert the whole rework in general so that we old Malzahar mains can enjoy him mid again while they try a different rework.

And I am going to be honest here: I said this before when they announced the reworked and I will say it again: DO NOT FOCUS ON THE VOILDINGS!

Malzahar before the rework was never about the voilding. He should never of been about the voilding. In fact they should of gotten rid the voildings all together in the rework.

But no....people who don't or have never played him outside of URF all said "Voidlings are cool" because of AD Malz in URF..so then Riot ended up focusing on Voidlings...which ended up in this crap we now have to deal with.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

{quoted}

Once the changes in 6.23 came around...Malzahar was destroyed.

Turning his W into an ammo system with 3 HP and only being able to multiply on champs hit within 3 seconds destroyed any and all wave-clearing power he had and pretty much forced Malzahar to only used his W on champs.

And the only place where you focus on champs instead of minions....is support. So then Malzahar became a support only champ and was oppressive that nerfs after nerfs came to him which then destroyed mid/jungle even more.

Even Riot 'finally' understanding this now.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/gQ1uBNLG-quick-gameplay-thoughts-april-11?comment=00140000

Honestly at this point they should either revert back to before 6.23 changes or revert the whole rework in general so that we old Malzahar mains can enjoy him mid again while they try a different rework.

And I am going to be honest here: I said this before when they announced the reworked and I will say it again: DO NOT FOCUS ON THE VOILDINGS!

Malzahar before the rework was never about the voilding. He should never of been about the voilding. In fact they should of gotten rid the voildings all together in the rework.

But no....people who don't or have never played him outside of URF all said "Voidlings are cool" because of AD Malz in URF..so then Riot ended up focusing on Voidlings...which ended up in this crap we now have to deal with.

I played Malz before the rework, and I do agree, Voidlings are not why I played him. I played him because of how little counterplay he had; I take a fiendish delight in finding all the ways to make my opponents hate me (ex: back in the day, I used to play triforce/ie/shiv Ashe mid. With the guaranteed IE shiv crit, you'd basically R-AA a squishy and one-shot them while stunned. It was beautiful). And I realize that while this is a lot of fun for me, it's probably not worth a good thing for the game as a whole.

I also think Voidling control was a fun part of his gameplay; I think the decision to increase the importance of voildings was good. But I think it went too far; new Malz is almost all about voidlings, and that feels really bad to me. I'm looking for a middle gtound, where voidlings matter more than they did to old Malz but they're not the only thing that matters in his kit. I actually had a couple iterations where Void Rifts also worked kind of like Null Zones. Ended up feeling weird, like the spell was trying to do too many things.

I agree with the analysis of champ vs minion interaction being the cause of Malz support. That said, I played Malz support before the rework, so it's not the only thing that makes him effective in the role (namely, 3x spelltheif procs on a single, targeted spell).

I also don't think malz support is inherently a problem, just this iteration of it. The main balancing lever for support vs mid is the mana refund on E kill; this rework makes that a stronger lever to pull, without killing Malz with mana costs later in the game.

lightdragoon881 votes

Well here was 2 things I thought of today: A new passive and new ult.

Passive: Void corruption

When Malzahar is below 50% HP, he can corrupted and destroy one of his minions to restore some HP and mana. The minion chose determines the restore and cooldown. Cannot corrupt super minions.

This is something I thought of when I remember that we don't have the minion denying attacking our own minions like DOTA does so I figure why not give this as a passive. Now to avoid it being overpowered as being the only champ denying them minions is a big deal, a double bairrier of having to be below half health and a separate cooldown was added.

Now what about that cool Void Barrier? Well that goes into his new ult:

Ultimate: Invasion

Malzhar becomes overloaded with Void energy for X seconds (increasing with rank). During this time all spell cast will summon voildings. If you cast R again during this time Malzahar would use Nether Grasp. After Nether Grasp or if time runs out, All voildings die.

Now that Void Shift animation would be use here to show allies and enemies that he is in ult form and that he will be summoning lots of Voildings. And he can still use his old ult at the cost of his reminding time so there is choice in using it to lock a target down or summon as many voildings as you can during a teamfight.

Now with the Voildings being moved to his ult, we can have his old W voidpool back. :D

Mataka Tek2 votes

I prefer Simplicity:

Simply bring back the Void Pool W with its original damage, and add ONE Voidling spawn at its center. Alternatively: to improve mechanics it could work as a 2 part W: Click 1: Spawns Voidling Click 2 within a certain time: Spawns the Pool.

The voidling should have real Hitpoints and a timer just like the old voidlings The voidling attacks the nearest target or Frenzies to any target if it has visions or nether grasp.
And lastly: It Only ONLY Multiplies vs Jg Monsters, Drag, Baron, or upon champ deaths.

This solves the problem of being too aggressive for the Support Lane. It brings back his jungle potential. It allows Malz to time his spells appropriately. It brings back his missing strength lost when they removed the pool in the first place.

nachocheeseeeee2 votes

I thought it was cool that Malzahar was one of the few mages along with Fiddlesticks who could jg. But yeah, now he is forgotten.

DeathBurst2 votes

A great thread :)

Voluug132 votes

Honestly I dont know where to start with so much wrong in this post.

But here its my through on this post:

Its wrong. You are trying too hard to see the good in something that is, as a whole, a pile of garbage.

The entire rework at its core was fundamentally wrong an flawed because it was based on misconceptions and outside views of how Malz worked (Repertoir, you lost all my faith on you).

  • The passive changes were atrocious and not made to make Malz a better champion but an easier one. This inmunoshield crap basically destroyed one of the skillchecks of Malz: positionement.

  • The Q changes are horrible too. Less performance on a skillshot skill is just wrong, and all its performance was shoved into W. Its E reset thing isnt needed, because, yet again, that was an entire skillcheck that was utterly murdered.

  • The W changes are so bad, so hypocrital, and flat out against every complain and so called '''''problem'''''' that Malz supposedly had in Repertoir's mind, that the only solution is complete scrapping. There is a reason Malz's voidlings were balanced around having an extremely high ''mana cost'' and no AP scaling. Specifically because THEY are the reason for Malz being able to shove a lane. It was never E directly or alone. E was never capable of solopushing lanes until midgame.

And now Malz has access to several on-demand voidlings for extremely easy, hands off, ACTUALLY un-interactive pushing and E mana gains. For 1/10 the mana cost. Malz needed a total of 5 spellcasts to pop a voidling. That is, even with ONLY E, around 400 mana. Now for 1/10 the mana he can get several to lane for him.

Also, losing his anti-tank tool, pre rework W, took away even more damage from his kit.

  • The E changes basically scream ''I dont know about Malz'', because the QW changes basically murdered any skillcheck that his ability might had once. Alone it was never capable of doing the fabled ''afk farm Malz'' because ot lacked damage. Which ALWAYS meant Malz needed to be there to babysit his E to regain mana. Now he has on-demand voidlings for practically no mana.

  • The R changes basically deleted his anti-assassin niche, which is obviously what Repertior actually wanted. Complete loss of burst, lack of flat damage on the beam means that Malz is actually WEAKER against QSS.

Overall the entire rework wasnt done with the niche, strong but limited champion that Malz was in mind, but how to delete his anti-assassin niche and how to make him a popular/easy champion.

kristopher2051 votes

I used to main malzahar and play him quite a lot but this recent nerfs have hit him pretty hard and he is literally useless mid lane now.

These changes would definently be good.

MysterQ1 votes

I wonder how many people have tried Malz mid. In bronze/silver I have seen plenty of Malz mid doing heavy carrying in my games. The thing is when someone picks him for mid, they seem to really know what they are doing and tend to win lane. Sometimes have been a counterpick to like a Kata, sometimes just a blind pick and still putting in work.

I have no problem with trying to improve him. But I wonder how many people actually try him mid instead of just relegating him as bad mid.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

{quoted}

I wonder how many people have tried Malz mid. In bronze/silver I have seen plenty of Malz mid doing heavy carrying in my games. The thing is when someone picks him for mid, they seem to really know what they are doing and tend to win lane. Sometimes have been a counterpick to like a Kata, sometimes just a blind pick and still putting in work.

I have no problem with trying to improve him. But I wonder how many people actually try him mid instead of just relegating him as bad mid.

I don't think he's a bad mid in soloQ, but in his current state he'll never be a good mid in pro (because he'll always be better support).

Regardless, that's not the main reason I'm interested in Malz changes, it's that (1) I don't enjoy playing him right now and (2) His kit is not healthy in the support role (invalidates melee supports).

TheUltimateLife1 votes

I actually got here from your copy/paste of this into the Malz reddit thread, and I'm pretty disappointed that I read it there first lol. It did NOT transition well as a copy/paste job and looks quite awful on reddit, to be honest.

Anyways, along with where you're going and some of the comments here, I also believe the passive desperately needs some attention. I would even be for getting rid of the dmg reduction entirely and actually making it a spell shield. It's incredibly annoying how an auto can break it, or how marks stay on you. You take all of Talon's dmg from his passive, Lee can Q to you after hitting the shield, Fizz's ult attach alone removes it, etc.

But I suppose none of this would matter (and Malz wouldn't need the shield to prevent any of these things) if we go with the idea that it only appears and/or is reset upon casting your ult. If we could have that mechanic, I think even the .25sec would be fine because it does prevent any casting time errors (in which the target disrupts you) and since you're cc'ing your target you're still safe from one attack/spell from anyone trying to stop you. I mean, if Yasuo can gain his shield on ult so that he's not afraid to go in, why can't Malz?

I've been so upset about the shield nerfs for ages now, but this idea just never occurred to me and it's so genius I have half a mind to boycott playing Malz until it happens lol.

I think the W is OK right now, and if they think the upcoming nerfs will take care of the support "crisis" then I'll agree on one condition: Change how the voidlings take damage. Completely destroying them and making them one-shots to anything with an auto-modifier or decent AoE is just really rash, in my opinion. My question would be, is it possible for them to make it so regardless of spell cast, auto enchancers, etc it actually takes TWO attacks or spells to kill the voidling? If they could do that, that'd be pretty great. And I'd even settle for that, along with that passive shield change, and call it a day.

People keep comparing these voidlings to zyra plants, but at the end of the day (at least when I play ADC), I'm attacking these plants for a good couple seconds if I want them dead. Usually the timer runs out on them before I can kill them (early game at least) and I'm just depressed I lost a ton of HP and didn't get the 5g lol. Malz voidlings need to actually be on you and don't have the range of zyra's plants. They're really not all that comparable, in my opinion, and I think zrya plants may even be more oppressive once they've spawned.

In short, passive resetting upon ulting someone (even without the damage reduction), coupled with somewhat of a guarantee that voidlings won't be one-shot would fix what feels bad about mid malz. And I don't see why it wouldn't also accomplish the nerf to support malz, since it only takes the 2 shots instead of 3.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

{quoted}

I actually got here from your copy/paste of this into the Malz reddit thread, and I'm pretty disappointed that I read it there first lol. It did NOT transition well as a copy/paste job and looks quite awful on reddit, to be honest.

That isn't me. I'm interested in the responses, though; do you have the link?

Anyways, along with where you're going and some of the comments here, I also believe the passive desperately needs some attention. I would even be for getting rid of the dmg reduction entirely and actually making it a spell shield. It's incredibly annoying how an auto can break it, or how marks stay on you. You take all of Talon's dmg from his passive, Lee can Q to you after hitting the shield, Fizz's ult attach alone removes it, etc.

Imo, the cc immunity is more important for his ult to function, and the damage reduction is more important for his ability to trade in lane (although, I'm not sure how much Malz mid gets to use the passive in lane, with the current tuning).

But I suppose none of this would matter (and Malz wouldn't need the shield to prevent any of these things) if we go with the idea that it only appears and/or is reset upon casting your ult. If we could have that mechanic, I think even the .25sec would be fine because it does prevent any casting time errors (in which the target disrupts you) and since you're cc'ing your target you're still safe from one attack/spell from anyone trying to stop you. I mean, if Yasuo can gain his shield on ult so that he's not afraid to go in, why can't Malz?

Target interruption is only part of the reason for the refresh, though. The other part is to make it more consistent between teamfights and 1v1, and the shorter duration doesn't do much for that. I actually considered making it a full second again, but was worried about power level.

I've been so upset about the shield nerfs for ages now, but this idea just never occurred to me and it's so genius I have half a mind to boycott playing Malz until it happens lol.

Lol, thanks. I think that's only worth if you aren't having fun playing Malz right now, though. Otherwise, your well-expressed opinion is going to mean a lot more than boycotting the champ (largely because it's hard to establish causality -- maybe you're not playing malz because you found another champ you really like).

I think the W is OK right now, and if they think the upcoming nerfs will take care of the support "crisis" then I'll agree on one condition: Change how the voidlings take damage. Completely destroying them and making them one-shots to anything with an auto-modifier or decent AoE is just really rash, in my opinion. My question would be, is it possible for them to make it so regardless of spell cast, auto enchancers, etc it actually takes TWO attacks or spells to kill the voidling? If they could do that, that'd be pretty great. And I'd even settle for that, along with that passive shield change, and call it a day.

The problem is that if you W-E a melee champion (say, Leona), they have absolutely no way to deal with it. So their only option is to basically never go in, which is really not fun, and gives malz's adc a free lane. The Voidlings have to be weak so you have the option of killing them.

I think the latest round of nerfs will work for making Malz more bearable to play against but, as you've pointed out, it sucks when your main form of damage is an unreliable pet that dies to stray aoe.

The hope is that, by telegraphing Voidling spawn a lot more, we can afford to make Voidlings feel good for Malz, again.

People keep comparing these voidlings to zyra plants, but at the end of the day (at least when I play ADC), I'm attacking these plants for a good couple seconds if I want them dead. Usually the timer runs out on them before I can kill them (early game at least) and I'm just depressed I lost a ton of HP and didn't get the 5g lol. Malz voidlings need to actually be on you and don't have the range of zyra's plants. They're really not all that comparable, in my opinion, and I think zrya plants may even be more oppressive once they've spawned.

I agree. Key differences being plants' shorter duration and lack of movement, which together mean that "back off until they time out" is much more reasonable counterplay to Zyra.

In short, passive resetting upon ulting someone (even without the damage reduction), coupled with somewhat of a guarantee that voidlings won't be one-shot would fix what feels bad about mid malz. And I don't see why it wouldn't also accomplish the nerf to support malz, since it only takes the 2 shots instead of 3.

This patch nerfed Voidlings from 3hp to 2hp. I believe the way single hp works is that ranged AAs and aoe spells deal 1 dmg while melee AAs and single target spells deal 2.

TheUltimateLife2 votes

As per your request, this is the reddit thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/MalzaharMains/comments/668gi6/lets_talk_about_malzahar_analysis_rework/

Also, as for Leona, do you know if she can attack a voidling to get her passive on it and then the adc can auto and the leona proc will take out 2 HP on the voidling? With how Ori autos, lux passive, etc take out 2 hp I feel like it should be that way, but I don't know for sure. If it does work that way, I mean they ARE using a spell or two to take them out, but voidlings should've already only had an effective 2HP vs Leona. But obviously the voidlings multiplying would still be painful if she can't wipe out the first one.

And yeah, I see what you're saying about the shield and stuff. I'm not saying my proposed solution is a be all end all, but at least for me it would be lol. I'd be satisfied and he'd feel great mid again with just that. I've only played him bot a few times, though, when auto filled or something. I try not to add to playrates in these instances lol. Malz will probably always have my highest mastery rating but I don't play him as much as I used to.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

{quoted}

As per your request, this is the reddit thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/MalzaharMains/comments/668gi6/lets_talk_about_malzahar_analysis_rework/

Thanks! As an aside, I love that subreddit's css.

Also, as for Leona, do you know if she can attack a voidling to get her passive on it and then the adc can auto and the leona proc will take out 2 HP on the voidling? With how Ori autos, lux passive, etc take out 2 hp I feel like it should be that way, but I don't know for sure. If it does work that way, I mean they ARE using a spell or two to take them out, but voidlings should've already only had an effective 2HP vs Leona. But obviously the voidlings multiplying would still be painful if she can't wipe out the first one.

I've personally been lucky enough not to face much Malz support as Leona, so I don't know 100%. That said, Leo's Q has a fairly unique interaction where her next AA after it is faster than normal; for example, you can AA_Q-AA_AA to clear a ward before it disappears. If you lead with the Q, you should be able to get in the second AA before the stun wears off, and prevent another from spawning.

That said, if you're a second late on the stun, it'll get an aa off and it's worthless anyway. Also now you're down Q for the trade. Also Malz might have another charge in his back pocket. :(

And yeah, I see what you're saying about the shield and stuff. I'm not saying my proposed solution is a be all end all, but at least for me it would be lol. I'd be satisfied and he'd feel great mid again with just that. I've only played him bot a few times, though, when auto filled or something. I try not to add to playrates in these instances lol. Malz will probably always have my highest mastery rating but I don't play him as much as I used to.

Yeah, the ult changes are more about making Malz feel good (in mid and support!), while the W changes are about fixing his pattern as a support (and hopefully, making Malz feel like there's a bit more skill to using Voidlings than just "press W and E when someone gets close").

There's definitely no perfect solution in game design. Everything is a trade-off for one thing or another. Which trade-off you pick depends on what your goals are, and those are different for everybody :)

Sexy Jack Rabbit1 votes

I like the changes to his Passive the most. Lower the damage reduction, up the shield time (It's not better then a Banshee's veil), and have it refresh on kill or ult.

The changes to W seem a little bit too gimmicky in my opinion.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

{quoted}

I like the changes to his Passive the most. Lower the damage reduction, up the shield time (It's not better then a Banshee's veil), and have it refresh on kill or ult.

Refresh on kill, that's interesting. A bit worried it would make Malz too good at tower dives (ult to reduce dmg from 2 tower shots, then get out with more dmg reduction on kill). But maybe that's just a numbers thing.

On thing I will mention: I'm certain that Riot Repertoir tested a version of the passive with less damage reduction, and obviously he chose this tuning. Also, the duration was nerfed shortly after the rework, when Repertoir (not the balance team) was still working on it, and he chose to lower the duration rather than nerf the reduction. I'll see if I can get some context on this.

The changes to W seem a little bit too gimmicky in my opinion.

Out of curiosity, which part seems gimmicky? Voidlings follow almost all the same rules as live; there's really only 3 changes:

  1. Spawn delayed by 4 spellcasts
  • Borrowed from old Malz; if this is the problem, did old Malz feel gimmicky, too? Why or why not?
  1. Spawn from and get MS boost near Portals instead of Malz
  • I suspect this is what feels gimmicky. I'm curious why.
  1. Numbers tweaks to voidling MS
  • These are pretty inconsequential, so I doubt they're the issue here.
Sexy Jack Rabbit1 votes

The general gist of spawning a portal that lasts for the 30s seconds and then being forced to cast 4 other spells before it activates so it can spawn some voidlings that aren't really guaranteed to do all that much just seems unsatisfying and unrewarding as well as another tedious mini-game.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

{quoted}

The general gist of spawning a portal that lasts for the 30s seconds and then being forced to cast 4 other spells before it activates so it can spawn some voidlings that aren't really guaranteed to do all that much just seems unsatisfying and unrewarding as well as another tedious mini-game.

Thanks for the feedback. Do you think you'd feel the same way if it activated after several seconds, instead of being tied to spellcasts?

Erockandroll1 votes

Personally, I think the passive refresh on ult is going to be way to problematic. Part of the counterplay is ult is the fact that it's channeled. But his passive makes it much harder to knock him out of that channel, so it would have even less counterplay if it refreshed on ult cast.

[{quoted}](name=Hyrum Graff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1syQyMmG,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2017-04-19T15:28:42.265+0000)

Out of curiosity, which part seems gimmicky? Voidlings follow almost all the same rules as live; there's really only 3 changes:

  1. Spawn delayed by 4 spellcasts
  • Borrowed from old Malz; if this is the problem, did old Malz feel gimmicky, too? Why or why not?
  1. Spawn from and get MS boost near Portals instead of Malz
  • I suspect this is what feels gimmicky. I'm curious why.
  1. Numbers tweaks to voidling MS
  • These are pretty inconsequential, so I doubt they're the issue here.

Personally, I would say the rift mechanic itself. You would basically have to stay in the area of said rift and cast spells just to arm the thing. Only to have an effect that isn't far off from what it does now. Perhaps more dangerous that the rifts duration is longer that the cooldown of the spell. Meaning you could have multiple portals active at once. (side note, a rift effect would require new art assets, which would effectively be another mini rework in terms of time commitment)

Personally, I think Riot should try to simplify the ability as best they can. The more exceptions they put into that ability just to deal with the edge cases, the more muddied it gets. One proposal I made, was to not make the W actually swarm by itself. but rather allow Malz to summon with effects (like a unit kill) that reduce the recharge CC.)

Reworked W-Summon Voidling Cost 30 Mana, 12 second rechange Increase ammo count to 3. Voidlings no longer spawn new voidlings. Killing a unit while at least one voidling is active, reduces voidling recharge by half. (scales down with CDR) Voidlings last 12 seconds, no longer shared with other voidlings.

This would help maintain Malz's ability to swarm. And if you bind the minion recharge to unit kills, it would make that swarm, a lot more difficult to pull off in the support role. Also, it would be more heavily mana gated, so you would have to rely on the mana refund from your space aids.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

{quoted}

Personally, I think the passive refresh on ult is going to be way to problematic. Part of the counterplay is ult is the fact that it's channeled. But his passive makes it much harder to knock him out of that channel, so it would have even less counterplay if it refreshed on ult cast.

The problem is, that counterplay is not accessible in a 1v1 scenario. So, you've got an ability that's either OP in a 1v1 or really bad in teamfights/skirmishes.

There's two ways to fix this. One is to give the ability counterplay in a 1v1, but with this particular ability that just isn't possible. The other is to remove counterplay in the teamfight situation and nerf the ability to compensate, which is what Riot startes to do in the rework (notably, by making the damage last longer than the suppress, so it's not all guaranteed, and by making the damage stay on the field even if the ult gets canceled) and what I'm continuing.

Counterplay is the opposite of reliability, and in this case, in order to make the ability balance-able, it needs to be more on the reliable side. This tends to be the case for ultimates: even Zed's death mark has some base damage.

So, a different way to think of it is: the CC immunity period is Nether Grasp's base damage/cc.

Personally, I would say the rift mechanic itself. You would basically have to stay in the area of said rift and cast spells just to arm the thing. Only to have an effect that isn't far off from what it does now.

What if there were no spellcast restriction, and instead Rifts turn into portals after a couple seconds? Probably using a charge system in this iteration.

Perhaps more dangerous that the rifts duration is longer that the cooldown of the spell. Meaning you could have multiple portals active at once.

This was intended. If you want to spend 27-60 seconds (based on rank and cdr) prepping an area with 3 portals, without casting anything else, it seems like a reasonable reward. Maybe even underpowered, given that live malz can throw down 2 voidlings on demand. I don't think it would be oppressive in normal laning usage. See the quote box near the end of the OP; that's the most oppressive pattern I could come up with for this Malz, and it's really not that bad (Malz pays heavily in mana to sustain it and enemy interaction interrupts it).

(side note, a rift effect would require new art assets, which would effectively be another mini rework in terms of time commitment)

Yes, it would; it's a Shyvana-scale rework. That said, if the current mechanic is going to be maintained, it really needs visual work anyway to indicate when the swarming period ends. A portal should be relatively resource-light as there's already a lot of similar things in league that you could use as a starting point (null zone, zz'rot, annie passive for charge indicator, udyr/yas circle for remaining duration, dark star particles, etc). If these things were drawn per voidling it would be way too visually messy. If they're on Malz himself, that's confusing. Portals provide a logical place to do it.

Personally, I think Riot should try to simplify the ability as best they can. The more exceptions they put into that ability just to deal with the edge cases, the more muddied it gets.

Agreed. In one iteration, voidlings couldn't leave the area around the portal at all, but could spawn at any time, and if you killed the final voidling, a new one would spawn. Considered allowing Voidling AA's beyond the forest to spawn new voidlings, but that gets out of hand real fast. Ended up not choosing that because it would feel so bad to Malz, to fight an enemy just outside the Portal zone.

One proposal I made, was to not make the W actually swarm by itself. but rather allow Malz to summon with effects (like a unit kill) that reduce the recharge CC.)

This would help maintain Malz's ability to swarm. And if you bind the minion recharge to unit kills, it would make that swarm, a lot more difficult to pull off in the support role. Also, it would be more heavily mana gated, so you would have to rely on the mana refund from your space aids.

I like the premise of this, giving Malz more control over the swarm. A couple concerns:

  • Mana issues. If it's cheap enough to create a swarm without running oom, then there's basically no cost to using naturally generated charges. Is that ok? If not, what mechanic do we want for making swarm casts cheaper?
  • Is there any scenario where malz wouldn't want to spawn the next voidling instantly? If not, why are we making him jump through the hoop of an extra spell cast?
  • It's less gated in lane than teamfights, when ideally I think it should be the other way around.
    • Partially cause by this particular condition (unit kill). I'd be more inclined to pick something like E ticks or refreshes.
    • Partially caused by dependence on mana refund.
Mataka Tek1 votes

Are you suggesting that voidlings be limited to a certain radius? That would make them useless versus any mobile champ... all that set-up time and no payoff. Fizz, Ahri, Yasuo, Zed they would simply move around too fast for the voidlings. Late game would be a night mare because you are constantly moving from lane to jungle and back.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mataka Tek,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1syQyMmG,comment-id=00040000000100000000,timestamp=2017-04-19T18:07:48.071+0000)

Are you suggesting that voidlings be limited to a certain radius? That would make them useless versus any mobile champ... all that set-up time and no payoff. Fizz, Ahri, Yasuo, Zed they would simply move around too fast for the voidlings.

Late game would be a night mare because you are constantly moving from lane to jungle and back.

Yep, that's a big reason why I scrapped that version :)

I think at present there's probably too much setup / not enough payoff in W. Haven't decided which direction I'd like to go to fix that yet (example directions: spawn after fewer spellcasts; spawn after a delay instead of basing off spellcasts; use a charge system for creating portals; allow portals to persist indefinitely; count ult as 2-3 casts, spread out through the channel; additional minion spawns timed instead of tied to Voidling AAs).

Erockandroll1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hyrum Graff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1syQyMmG,comment-id=0004000000010000,timestamp=2017-04-19T17:25:52.509+0000)

I like the premise of this, giving Malz more control over the swarm. A couple concerns:

  • Mana issues. If it's cheap enough to create a swarm without running oom, then there's basically no cost to using naturally generated charges. Is that ok? If not, what mechanic do we want for making swarm casts cheaper?
  • Is there any scenario where malz wouldn't want to spawn the next voidling instantly? If not, why are we making him jump through the hoop of an extra spell cast?
  • It's less gated in lane than teamfights, when ideally I think it should be the other way around.
    • Partially cause by this particular condition (unit kill). I'd be more inclined to pick something like E ticks or refreshes.
    • Partially caused by dependence on mana refund.

I want to start with your last point, partially because it ties with my concern with the passive. But even before the rework, Malz always struck me as a duelist mage, who was suppose to excel in the 1v1. as well as having the tools needed to split push. The only thing that would have been missing is damage to towers. The other reason is that the voidlings power has to be bound to the minion farm, if your going to make the mechanic more significant in the mid lane. Although, we could modify it to say offer a larger refund on champion kill.

For your second point. Part of it was to make him a little less dependent on the swarm mechanic itself. At the moment his current void swarm is kinda all or nothing. Either his swarm takes off uncontrollably, or is shut down before it even starts. And at the moment, Riot is making his voidlings even more fragile. That in mind, if you keep your voidling in reserve like I might have suggest, you have options if your current swarm gets annihilated.

Wasn't really thinking of mana issues, as current mage itemization can be pretty efficient at negating it. Also with his mana refund on his E, it's some what unlikely that he would run into a team fight with a depleted mana bar.

Mataka Tek1 votes

How to fix Malz: 1 His ultimate should not be interruptible. QSS totally ruins competitive play at high elos where any champ buys QSS and negates the CC. (And it seems also the damage)

2 Bring back the old W (Void Pool) and have it only spawn ONE Voidling with actual hitpoints. The Voidling should frenzy if there are visions or Nether grasp.

2B: Allows Jg but avoids Support Lane abuse: Allow the voidlings to multiply only if they are attack jungle monsters, dragon and baron, or when under frenzy with Nether Grasp but not versus champs unless under Nether Grasp. By spawning only 1 voidling and preventing multiplication of the voidling unless under Nether Grasp(or Jg/ monsters), it prevents support lane abuse of the voidlings.

3 Leave the rest of his QWER alone.

Lastly, to improve his ability to tank damage:

  1. The shield should be only a SPELL Shield not an auto attack shield.
  2. Upon breaking the shield should give a stun to any champ in melee range of .25 secs and a slow to anyone within Auto range of .5 secs. This will give him some chance of CC every 20 secs or so.

Fix the following bugs:

  1. Bug: Suppressed enemies are still able to perform auto attacks when in range. Suppressed Enemies should not be able to autoattack.
Hyrum Graff1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mataka Tek,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1syQyMmG,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2017-04-19T15:39:49.482+0000)

How to fix Malz: 1 His ultimate should not be interruptible. QSS totally ruins competitive play at high elos where any champ buys QSS and negates the CC. (And it seems also the damage)

In fairness though, 6.9 Malz was played mid with great success, even with the interruptible ult. He was obviously very overtuned, but the point is that this is not the only way to make Malz strong at high elo.

Yes, it does contribute to a disparity between high and low elo. That would be less the case if there were more outplay opportunity elsewhere in his kit (which, in fairness, I'm not sure this rework provides).

2 Bring back the old W (Void Pool) and have it only spawn ONE Voidling with actual hitpoints. The Voidling should frenzy if there are visions or Nether grasp.

2B: Allows Jg but avoids Support Lane abuse: Allow the voidlings to multiply only if they are attack jungle monsters, dragon and baron, or when under frenzy with Nether Grasp but not versus champs unless under Nether Grasp. By spawning only 1 voidling and preventing multiplication of the voidling unless under Nether Grasp(or Jg/ monsters), it prevents support lane abuse of the voidlings.

The problem is, it's really hard to balance this against also making the voidling do enough damage to stay meaningful. Here's what I mean:

  • If you buff Q or E damage, Malz mid goes back to insta-clearing waves. Boring.
  • If you buff R damage, Malz goes back to full comboing you while you're suppressed. Not fun.
  • If you nerf W damage without giving damage elsewhere, you've gutted Malz.
    • If you make Voidlings as tanky as they used to be without nerfing W's overall damage, Voidlings are once again impossible to deal with.

If you add the W change I propose here, I think you could (with some additional changes) restore old voidling hp while maintaining the damage, since the counterplay is now "stay away from portals".

3 Leave the rest of his QWER alone.

Lastly, to improve his ability to tank damage:

  1. The shield should be only a SPELL Shield not an auto attack shield.
  2. Upon breaking the shield should give a stun to any champ in melee range of .25 secs and a slow to anyone within Auto range of .5 secs. This will give him some chance of CC every 20 secs or so.

Seems harsh for a melee champ. I gapclosed to malz, ate a voidling and E to the face, and I'm stunned just for popping the shield, so I can't dodge the silence? Ouch.

Fix the following bugs:

  1. Bug: Suppressed enemies are still able to perform auto attacks when in range. Suppressed Enemies should not be able to autoattack.

Overall, I like the direction of giving Malz a little more durability, but I think these changes would leave him very weak.

Mataka Tek1 votes

Seems harsh for a melee champ. I gapclosed to malz, ate a voidling and E to the face, and I'm stunned just for popping the shield, so I can't dodge the silence? Ouch.

This would only happen if his shield was up.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mataka Tek,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1syQyMmG,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2017-04-19T16:46:32.399+0000)

This would only happen if his shield was up.

Sure, but melee champs also tend to have fewer ways to poke down the shield before they engage, and/or keep it from regenerating.

Mataka Tek1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hyrum Graff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1syQyMmG,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2017-04-19T16:20:18.466+0000)

In fairness though, 6.9 Malz was played mid with great success, even with the interruptible ult. He was obviously very overtuned, but the point is that this is not the only way to make Malz strong at high elo.

Yes, it does contribute to a disparity between high and low elo. That would be less the case if there were more outplay opportunity elsewhere in his kit (which, in fairness, I'm not sure this rework provides).

But the point is that he is NOT successful when the enemy laner buys QSS. Its basically a no-win scenario at that point.

Have you actually checked the top 10 Malzahar players in the world ... to see what they are doing now? I can tell you, they have switched champs.

And that was pre-Voidling Nerf.

And they did it because other champs outscale Malz and don't have QSS vulnerability.

Easy examples: Any decent Tryndamere, Master Yi, Yasuo, Fizz, Zed, Talon the list goes on and on. Once they reach a certain point, the only thing a Malzahar has to defend himself is that Ultimate, and the turret behind him.

Once they get that QSS... that threat is gone. And Malz becomes essentially a non-combatant.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mataka Tek,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1syQyMmG,comment-id=000600000001,timestamp=2017-04-19T16:53:47.237+0000)

But the point is that he is NOT successful when the enemy laner buys QSS. Its basically a no-win scenario at that point.

Have you actually checked the top 10 Malzahar players in the world ... to see what they are doing now? I can tell you, they have switched champs.

And that was pre-Voidling Nerf.

And they did it because other champs outscale Malz and don't have QSS vulnerability.

Current Malz, maybe. I was talking about Malz on patch 6.9, when he was successful in mid in the LCS. His kit overall was strong enough that it could still function if the enemy bought qss.

Take Ashe, for example. Her ult is countered by qss, but the rest of her kit is strong enough that she can function even if her opponents buy qss one.

Easy examples: Any decent Tryndamere, Master Yi, Yasuo, Fizz, Zed, Talon the list goes on and on. Once they reach a certain point, the only thing a Malzahar has to defend himself is that Ultimate, and the turret behind him.

Once they get that QSS... that threat is gone. And Malz becomes essentially a non-combatant.

One way to fix this is to make it so QSS doesn't cancel Malz ult. The point is, that's not the only way to fix it; another is to give him ways to defend himself besides his ultimate. Please note, I'm not claiming this rework does that, only that it is possible.

Forcepowa1 votes

I don't think Riot addressed the real underlying issue with Malzahar. They need to remove the spawn on basic attack aganist champion or monster.. Then balance him around a different mechanic. I was a fan of on kill spawning. or they can beef them up and balance around the CD.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

{quoted}

I don't think Riot addressed the real underlying issue with Malzahar. They need to remove the spawn on basic attack against champion or monster.. Then balance him around a different mechanic. I was a fan of on kill spawning. or they can beef them up and balance around the CD.

Why do you think the current spawn mechanic is a problem? Particularly, what purpose do you think the spawn should serve? What purpose does it currently serve?

Forcepowa1 votes

Well I think it is problematic because it's the main reason why he was an issue bot lane. Malzahar is able to drop 3 or more Voidling on someone face without very much effort starting at level 2. At least in mid lane you had to choose between a weaker farming ability if you want to harass like that. Riot has tried to make it more bearable by ensuring Malzahar has to stay in range of the Voidlings and by reducing their health. Instead of removing the mechanic outright. The playstyle is not very fun to play against and has very little room for counter play. At least before when it was on unit death you could see the Voidlings coming and it provided natural counterplay. Avoid standing near the minion wave and try to deny CS. Which are things you should be doing anyways. Malefic Visions already gives enough visual cues to make that play pattern seem a lot more fair. As oppose to walk up to Malzahar and next thing you know 3 Voidlings are chomping on your face.

What purpose should the spawn serve? Good question. I'm not sure I have an answer for that but it would be cool if it had a thematic purpose and a gameplay one. I think your Zz-Rotportal-esce idea is pretty cool but needs to be more refined. I was a pretty big fan of the old passive. Although from a gameplay perspective it wasnt as useful as they are now.

What purpose do the spawns currently serve? RIght now it serves as a way to thin minion waves, a way to block skill shots, a ability that puts pressure on an enemy laner with very little interaction, extra damage when ulting.

Those are my thoughts as a Malzahar main.

AcidTheWarlock1 votes

I'm kind of against the W gimmick, it ties Malz to one area far too much and it's a lot of work for just one thing. What I saw is that tying Voidlings to an active ability feels like he's controlling them and people liked the uncontrollable spawns. They said it felt more thematic.

I'd like to suggest a passive, spawning the Voidling once every 4 spellcasts. That way it's a little harder to control and you have to plan around it, but the ability is more versatile.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

{quoted}

I'm kind of against the W gimmick, it ties Malz to one area far too much and it's a lot of work for just one thing. What I saw is that tying Voidlings to an active ability feels like he's controlling them and people liked the uncontrollable spawns. They said it felt more thematic.

Okay so, at the risk of sounding like, "You think you feel this way but you don't", I'm going to question this. Because -- while I can't really speak for others -- I feel much less in control of the new voidlings.

  • I can't direct them with my autoattacks
  • I don't have that much control over how big the swarm gets / how much damage it does.
    • In comparison, with old malz, I could try to keep the voidling alive until it was close to its Frenzy, then fight my opponent.
  • I don't even really feel like I have that much control over when I summon it.
    • Is there an enemy near me? Do I have a voidling? If so, press W and E the enemy. That's probably 80% of my decision-making about W (the other 20% being, do I want to waste a voidling to help clear a wave or take an objective, or save it for a fight?)

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that people miss the planning and decision-making around the voidling. If I planned well, I was rewarded with a voidling that spawned when I wanted it to. I don't deny that being out of control of the actual spawn plays into this. But I think people confuse the planning aspect and the control aspect, and overstate the importance of control as a result.

I think this rework achieves a similar thing to what old malz had. It's the feeling of inevitability: "A voidling is going to spawn soon no matter what I do; what can I do to make the most benefit of this?" FWIW, I think it would achieve a similar thing if the voidling just spawned (at malz or at a portal, doesn't matter which version of the ability) 6 or 7 seconds after casting W.

I'd like to suggest a passive, spawning the Voidling once every 4 spellcasts. That way it's a little harder to control and you have to plan around it, but the ability is more versatile.

So, the old passive? What would you suggest on W, then?

FWIW, one of the iterations I went through was basically: Malz has a portal (passive on W). It spawns a voidling every 4 casts. W moves the portal. Didn't go with that version because it allow Malz to spawn a voidling basically in a spot of his choosing, which means voidling spawn is no longer telegraphed to Malz's opponents.

AcidTheWarlock1 votes

W would be the passive, spawning in a little bit away from him. Since regular summoning with the charge system can be abused (blocking skillshots) for hidden power automatically or your burst is too quick, if you have a passive effect you can still block skillshots but it has to be more planned out.

Ideally the voidlings would be gone all together. I have no clue what you could replace it with, maybe making use of the whole void prophet theme and his knife that never gets used.

How about

W: Ritual of Enigmas

Malzahar begins a ritual, gaining charges every time he kills an enemy, 3 charges for champions and large monsters. After 2s, he may reactivate the ritual, dealing high damage to nearby enemies and himself. The ritual will automatically cast after 6s or when at 15 charges.

When at 5 charges, damage increases and the ability briefly slows. When at 10 charges, the slow is increased greatly. At 15 charges, the ability's slow lasts longer and instances of Malefic Visions are ended to deal 50% of the ability's damage to that target, triggers after a short delay.

Probably needs some tuning, but just a little idea I thought of while working on my next concept.

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