So many people cry "Nerf damage". No one has foresight.

chipndip1··12 votes·4,126 views

Think, people. Use your heads and think.

Why would Riot tackle issues one class at a time and not all at once?

Obviously so they don't throw the entire game into the ether in one patch and they can try to adjust the course of specific changes, in case a few of them are off the mark. The more changes you make at once, the more you have to individually assess and deal with if a balance issue arises, which will very easily happen.

Aighty, well let's assume they'll just nerf EVERY CHAMP'S DAMAGE regardless of this. From Aatrox to Zyra. Everyone. What's the issue?

The absolutely asinine part of this "request" (more like baseless bitching) is that...well...who wins if EVERYONE'S damage decreases?

  • Tanks.

You'd just force the whole game into a tank meta again, which would then force the whole game into a hyper carry meta again, and we all know that, in hyper carry metas, the whole game will revolve around bot lane at that point. Just like in season 7 and just like in season 5 (season 5 being even worse because it was more about stalling to 40+ minutes and winning/losing off of 1 team fight).

  • Marksmen.

Marksmen ain't worried about killing you in 2 autos. They're worried about killing you first, period. Doesn't matter if it's now or 5 autos later. Mages have to stop attacking. Assassins have to stop attacking. Divers and jugs get kited out. Marksmen are the ones that LOVE elongated dps fights. Any world where it takes longer for marksmen to die is a world where marksmen would rather be. Who cares if their damage is hampered a little? If EVERYONE ELSE'S DAMAGE is also brought down, and marksmen STILL have access to defensive items and life steal, marksmen win by nature of being marksmen, and they're STILL going to melt you away with crits.

  • Enchanters

In a world where people actually stand to gain something from fighting, enchanters are going to be seen a shitty. In a world where you DON'T, enchanters are a god send...since they run a lesser risk of being slain in the stages of the game where they're more vulnerable. Just like how marksmen enjoy metas where chances of dying are slimmer, enchanters enjoy metas where there's a lesser chance where you kill their allies through their defenses. The fact that pros are hungry for early game aggression and play making right now is a large factor as to why it's significantly more interesting to watch as of recent...and why none of them are playing enchanters.

If I pick Alistar and slam your Janna dead, there's no point in the Janna pick, but if I do my combo, get my follow-up, and the target somehow lives, there is now no point to MY ALISTAR PICK. Janna's peel is way heavier and safer than Alistar's, and if the game comes down to it, I'd rather just be Lulu and try to match the Janna if I'm not able to seize the early game. Thus, if it's harder for everyone to die, all sustain supports (enchanters) are automatically buffed.

My main point is that the issue isn't damage... sorta. It KINDA was, but Riot's made strides already to reduce burst damage output, and if people bother fact checking, we're at a point where burst damage is relatively similar to earlier seasons, but just comes from different sources (keystones and runes rather than 120 AP on Zhonya's and a DFG ready to outright dismantle someone). The long standing issue, though, is that people don't even bother solving their own issues before it gets out of hand. If an enemy is already 7/2 at 10 minutes and he's rolling over everyone, now is NOT the time for item 1033 or item 1031. You should have either played smarter or bought whatever resistances and played safer like 5 minutes ago. Damage isn't too high if you're actually using your head. All you'll accomplish by drastically reducing damage in the game is throwing the game back to tanks, enchanters, and marksmen, like season 5's Jinx and season 7's Ardent meta...AGAIN...because they thrive best in elongated fights where they don't die too quickly.

59 Comments

D357R0Y3R14 votes

"if a tank survives 5 more seconds, and you survive 5 more seconds, this will create a tank meta"

https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/524268659305349121.png?v=1

%%%% thread

chipndip12 votes

{quoted}

"if a tank survives 5 more seconds, and you survive 5 more seconds, this will create a tank meta"

https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/524268659305349121.png?v=1

%%%% thread

I see straw-manning the ABSOLUTE FUCK out of everything I say never went out of style.

D357R0Y3R2 votes

this is what your post implies

it implies that if a carry and a tank both survive 5 more seconds it creates a tank meta

next time have a better knowledge of what you're implying

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

this is what your post implies

it implies that if a carry and a tank both survive 5 more seconds it creates a tank meta

next time have a better knowledge of what you're implying

Can you just refrain from commenting on my threads if you're just gonna try to bait getting insulted in this fashion?

D357R0Y3R1 votes

you've got some guts to ask ME to stop commenting on a thread of the boards owned by Riot and not by some bullshit bloguer.

but the mods won't ban you, because "can you just refrain from commenting" is not the same than "shut the fuck up"

Cats Are Food8 votes

Why do people constantly whine about Tank Metas? None of the 3 were actually all that BAD, they were just mildly annoying.

Moonscourge1 votes

They were awful because tanks became too tanky too fast while nobody could itemize against it yet and it just felt like you had to hope your own tank was better, or that your ADC will get strong enough to deal with them. Now mages have a strong Liandry, but that's still nothing against a full tank and doesn't matter if you get killed thanks to them before you could even make use of dealing some % damage to them.

Cats Are Food2 votes

Right, but tank items have been nerfed into near oblivion. The problem was itemization more than anything else. A damage reduction will not really matter much to the tank class, beyond the fact they will stop being 3shot at levels 6-12.

At least you could play around the tank, for the most part. Granted they became monsters, but with their items having -already- been reduced...

Ragnaveil2 votes

I think the salt comes from them thinking the tank meta was the ardent meta. Enchanters and enchanter items alone were to blame for the Ardent meta, the tank meta simply existed in the top and jg slots. I get tank v tank is boring to see and play against, but shit like that isn't gonna happen with the pen changes. True damage however needs to be toned the fuck down. It should be a niche stat, not a general stat.

Cats Are Food4 votes

Well there was Tank Meta 1.0... it was fairly nasty, but it wasn't bad. Just everybody ran tanks for a bit.

Meta-Golem started a year after that due to a screw up with tank damage scaling.

Then Cinderhulk was their FIRST true screw up with itemization.

But, yeah, most people seem to think "tank meta" just means tanks are hard to kill. Tanks are SUPPOSED to be hard to kill.

Ragnaveil1 votes

The only issue was pen itemization was shitty. That was kinda it. That got fixed when they did the LW changes during the marksmen update last midseason.

Cats Are Food1 votes

Right... so... where's the problem?

Ragnaveil1 votes

Non-existent anymore. The problem is the amount of durability nerfs that hit tanks during that entire meta of tanks being gods. Their items suck, and considering Riot wont as so much as bat an eye towards their base stats anymore, means they are fish out of water. And as i mentioned before, true damage needs to be lowered and removed or reworked in certain cases.

chipndip11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cats Are Food,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1qj0ou6v,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-01-04T23:28:50.661+0000)

Why do people constantly whine about Tank Metas? None of the 3 were actually all that BAD, they were just mildly annoying.

You say this...

...but watch everyone turn if we land in another one for longer than a month or two.

ValyrianBlade7 votes

Season 5 was the best...

Outside of a couple cinderhulk users (I believe shyvana and sejuani and Zac) and ezreal abusing the ap jungle item - everything was pretty balanced. And you could ban the few outliers. And it didn't feel awful/oppressive when they made it through bans anyways...

Now we have like 30 oppressive Champions that no one outside the chosen can deal with...

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

Season 5 was the best...

Outside of a couple cinderhulk users (I believe shyvana and sejuani and Zac) and ezreal abusing the ap jungle item - everything was pretty balanced. And you could ban the few outliers.

No it wasn't. Jinx/Vayne/Tristana were the holy trinity of bot lane for the entirety of the season, save a short stint of Lucian. Jinx was literally gutted due to her performance in that season to a point where she's never been a competitively viable champion, or top tier in solo queue, ever again.

Stop the rose-tinted goggles.

IainG101 votes

As opposed to the Lucian/Ezreal/Kai'sa Holy Trinity we saw last Season? At least Jinx is low mobility, and Vayne 1.0 is far more punishable than Vayne 2.0 (i.e. Kai'sa); and whilst both Trist and Kai'sa have to leap in, Trist doesn't get a shield comparable to pre-nerf Janna thrown in for free....

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

As opposed to the Lucian/Ezreal/Kai'sa Holy Trinity we saw last Season? At least Jinx is low mobility, and Vayne 1.0 is far more punishable than Vayne 2.0 (i.e. Kai'sa); and whilst both Trist and Kai'sa have to leap in, Trist doesn't get a shield comparable to pre-nerf Janna thrown in for free....

Trist...was body-guarded by pre-nerf Janna.

And you don't remember just how blatantly powerful Jinx used to be. Hint: Her E used to arm faster, her rockets had no AS penalty, she had 6 more base AD, and her ult had way more damage up-close so she could very easily double/triple kill people that attempted to dive her, then get excited and clean fights.

IainG101 votes

Yes, but there was a chance there wasn't a Janna, whereas Kai'sa gets her ult-shield every game. And I do remember release Jinx; she was what got me into the game in the first place. I started playing just before her actual release, thanks to the promotional material they put out for her. And I'd still rather fight her than a semi-competent Kleptzreal

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

Yes, but there was a chance there wasn't a Janna, whereas Kai'sa gets her ult-shield every game. And I do remember release Jinx; she was what got me into the game in the first place. I started playing just before her actual release, thanks to the promotional material they put out for her. And I'd still rather fight her than a semi-competent Kleptzreal

Yeah, cause you were bad at the game.

Now that you have experience with the game, everything's less about how "crazy and new" it is and it's more about how "bullshit and stupid" it is.

Back in the days, I had no clue about what was going on save "The colors fly around, I get currency, and I suck at this shit." Nowadays, I have a stronger understanding of what's strong and why. Something like a Cass/Brand bot lane into my more seasoned skill set's going to test the shit out me even after growing an understanding of the game, whereas "fresh into the game" me wouldn't necessarily "get" wtf was going on, so I'd probably be more concerned with "How do I even do 'dodging the skill shot' and what do I do to make my character do things?" and less about "Is there even a method for a conventional marksman to make it out of this lane alive?"

Growth and understanding gets you through the honeymoon period of your experience with the game, and THAT'S when people start to dwell on their negative experiences, even if their negative experiences of 2018 - 2019 aren't comparable to previous ones (old Jinx was way stronger than Klepto Ezreal's ever going to be...hell, even previous instances of Ezreal himself had stronger iterations than what we have right now).

IainG101 votes

Yeah, I was new, so that meant I got to play into a Jinx that was int he hands of more experienced people if I didn't get her in picks.... I still remember playing Kog into that, and I'd still take it over some of the stuff we have now

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, I was new, so that meant I got to play into a Jinx that was int he hands of more experienced people if I didn't get her in picks.... I still remember playing Kog into that, and I'd still take it over some of the stuff we have now

Yeah...cause you were new and don't realize just what Jinx had back in season 5 and how strong it actually was, since you weren't playing against people that'd exploit it and murder you, nor would you even fully comprehend what was happening even if that did occur.

It's like playing Sonic Adventure 15 years ago versus playing Sonic Adventure today. There was a time where that game's game play held up, but nowadays it's really clumsy and people only really like the Sonic levels...and even those get moderately worse as the game progresses. Takes a bit of objectivity to really put everything in place, though.

Lauchmelder3 votes

Who got the rose-tinted goggles on when all you care about is marksmen here?

Season 5 was the best season overall. Could they have made improvements on one aspect or another? Hell yes. But games were long enough for a lategame to exist (which meant crit ADCs weren't literal trash because of that) and every lane mattered to a somewhat equal extent.

What season was better than 5?

Season "I can't kill the oneshotting Draven thanks to Death's Dance and Ardent Censer" 7?

Season "What the fuck is a 5 second teamfight, we need more damage" 8?

The game evolved over the past few years with runes and masteries being reworked, voicechat being introduced, champion mastery etc. Gameplay on the other hand went downhill for anyone with the ability to concentrate for more than 25 minutes and for people with the ability to land skillshots.

chipndip11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Shuriman God,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1qj0ou6v,comment-id=000700000001,timestamp=2019-01-05T09:35:31.816+0000)

Who got the rose-tinted goggles on when all you care about is marksmen here?

...how does that imply I do or don't have nostalgia?

Season 5 was the best season overall. Could they have made improvements on one aspect or another? Hell yes. But games were long enough for a lategame to exist (which meant crit ADCs weren't literal trash because of that) and every lane mattered to a somewhat equal extent.

They were TOO LONG and made any sort of skill expression in the early game boil down to 50/50s in the late game where all your efforts get pissed away due to some moron going ape shit at 45 minutes. Also, every fucking meta in season 5 was straight toxic. Ezreal abusing the AP jg item and lopping 75% of someone's health from the other side of the map, to every lane needing a tank in it, to the fucking Sated Devourer bullshit that was so grossly stupid that it didn't even last a season, to the jugs rework that made all four reworks solo queue perma-banned. Every single meta that showed up at the time forced everyone to heavily play around whatever that thing was until Riot removed or gutted it.

But I'M the nostalgia guy here for remembering that.

What season was better than 5?

I'm not saying any of them are or aren't. I just don't put season 5 on a pedestal. Season 5 was great for casuals, I imagine, cause you could feed and dick around for 50 minutes and win. It wasn't some magic season, though.

Lauchmelder1 votes

Fucking guess why I said that Riot could have improved a few things back in season 5.... Reading is hard apparently.

Concerning that bullshit you said about losing games thanks to an idiot lategame: If you had such an amazing earlygame you had the chance to win early. By far not every game lasted 45+ minutes. If you stomped the enemy early and didn't win back then you didn't deserve that win because you couldn't close it out. Nowadays that win gets handed to you on a fucking silver plate because "muh earlygame".

Seriously FUCK earlygame metas. If I would have the attention span of a bloody goldfish I'd play Overwatch or some Battle Royale game. I can concentrate on a task AND enjoy it for more than 25 minutes.

chipndip11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Shuriman God,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1qj0ou6v,comment-id=00070000000100000000,timestamp=2019-01-05T18:27:15.273+0000)

Fucking guess why I said that Riot could have improved a few things back in season 5.... Reading is hard apparently.

Instead of being my usual self, here. I'll say this:

Despite me reading that line, that line has no meaning, so I disregarded it.

Concerning that bullshit you said about losing games thanks to an idiot lategame: If you had such an amazing earlygame you had the chance to win early.

That did NOT happen in season 5. Games were heavily criticized for being too easily stalled out. And if you forgot, there was a stint where inner turrets had regenerating shields and granted all nearby champions regenerating shields as well, which promoted massive stall tactics with champs like Anivia and Lux (which is around when they gutted the absolute fuck out of Lux's W's return speed).

I'm entirely over people romanticizing season 5. The reason Riot took the direction they've been taking since then was largely in part due to just how badly they got burned when Dunkey called them out on the pace of their game, contrasting the game's flow to games like Third Strike where the better player is allowed to take control of the opponent and drive the game to a close. Season 5 League was the exact OPPOSITE of this, where people stacked teams for the big 45 minute clown fiesta and prayed that no one had a stroke at the keyboard by the time it started.

Seriously FUCK earlygame metas. If I would have the attention span of a bloody goldfish I'd play Overwatch or some Battle Royale game. I can concentrate on a task AND enjoy it for more than 25 minutes.

There's nothing wrong with a 25 to 30 minute game of League. There's something wrong when all my efforts for the first 25 to 30 minutes of the game are so unreliable in winning the game so often that I'd rather just stack late game champs and steam roll than put focus on controlling the early game...which is exactly what season 5 was.

Lauchmelder1 votes

{quoted}

Instead of being my usual self, here. I'll say this:

Despite me reading that line, that line has no meaning, so I disregarded it.

Despite me reading your post I'll disregard it because you can't accept that little sentence.

chipndip11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Shuriman God,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1qj0ou6v,comment-id=0007000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-05T23:14:04.075+0000)

Despite me reading your post I'll disregard it because you can't accept that little sentence.

Then why are you talking to me?

Me ignoring a singular line where you basically say "Yeah we'll just PRETEND to acknowledge that season 5 wasn't perfect by saying 'sure there were issues but...'" isn't close to equivalent to you disregarding an entire post responding to you under the assumption that you actually wanted to discuss something in a thread that I MADE that YOU VOLUNTARILY COMMENTED IN.

It'd be swell if you actively avoided my posts from here on. I'll be doing the same for yours. Ciao. Don't talk to me anymore.

Lauchmelder1 votes

That's the first reasonable thing you said since I started visiting the boards. Fair enough.

ValyrianBlade3 votes

{quoted}

No it wasn't. Jinx/Vayne/Tristana were the holy trinity of bot lane for the entirety of the season, save a short stint of Lucian. Jinx was literally gutted due to her performance in that season to a point where she's never been a competitively viable champion, or top tier in solo queue, ever again.

Stop the rose-tinted goggles.

I disagree that that's a problem.

In the history of bot Lane, at least since I started in season 4, there has NEVER been more than 3 viable Champions.

That portion of the season was no different. Hence, it was the best.

And those best ADCs weren't oppressive to other roles. In fact, Jinx was probably the best ADC to have at the top since she has very clear weaknesses (no mobility until she gets her passive, e is delayed so if you're on her face you stay on her easily, and she pops when you're on her face). Much better than when your ADC meta is:

  • Lucian and ezreal only (lasted close to a full season)
  • Tristana and kog'maw only
  • kai'sa, xayah only
  • kai'sa, Lucian, ezreal only (like it is right now, although jhin and vayne are close-ish)
  • ziggs and Caitlyn only Etc...

I mean, imaqtpie has said himself that it's really annoying when other roles complain about lack of champion diversity, when ADC has always been only 3 viable Champions in Challenger/pro that you need to constantly adjust to.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

I disagree that that's a problem.

Imagine if mid lane only had 3 top tier picks and the rest were basically garbage. You'd very much disagree then, so I'd be one to say it's a problem now.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

{quoted}

Imagine if mid lane only had 3 top tier picks and the rest were basically garbage. You'd very much disagree then, so I'd be one to say it's a problem now.

The big difference is that there are only about 19 ADCs in total. Versus 40ish mid/top.

Also, there are often only 4-7 top tier picks in mid/top: proportionally the same. Therye just as evident too. It's just more evident for ADC because of the smaller total pool.

Finally - I'll rephrase: it's not that it's not a problem, it's that it's not a problem unique to season 5's tank meta. The problem has always and still does exist that only 2-3 ADCs are used at high levels of play. So you can't say Jinx, Tristana and vayne were the only good ADCs so it was bad. When literally any period of time could say the same thing with 2 or 3 different ADCs.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

The big difference is that there are only about 19 ADCs in total. Versus 40ish mid/top.

Aight, so imagine if only assassins were EVER picked mid, and only three of them were actually useful. You wouldn't want to play that League of Legends.

Yet we do this for bot lane for a decade.

Also, there are often only 4-7 top tier picks in mid/top: proportionally the same. Therye just as evident too. It's just more evident for ADC because of the smaller total pool.

There's more room for more potential picks in those lanes because the meta there isn't so stifled. You ONLY need a marksman for dps. Meanwhile, in mid/top, there's way more strategy in how you go about picking a laner. Bot lane's been needing a dose of change for years, regardless of how it feels to receive it. Riot needs to sort it out instead of just recoiling and tossing us back into the usual marksman focused meta that they're probably fixing to toss us into in a minute.

Finally - I'll rephrase: it's not that it's not a problem, it's that it's not a problem unique to season 5's tank meta. The problem has always and still does exist that only 2-3 ADCs are used at high levels of play. So you can't say Jinx, Tristana and vayne were the only good ADCs so it was bad. When literally any period of time could say the same thing with 2 or 3 different ADCs.

...yeah, it's always been a problem, but Jinx ass-blasting 3 people off a point-blank ult is a season 5 specific problem. Sure, marksman being on the bot lane island has persisted throughout the years, but I'd like to NOT go back to the days where coddling the family jewels of the newest marksman out is the way to win the game.

Infernape1 votes

...until the juggernaut update.

MrDrBudd7 votes

I will literally take any past meta we've had over this "100-0 in one rotation of your spells in 1 second regardless of what you are playing because everyone is an assassin now" meta

chipndip13 votes

{quoted}

I will literally take any past meta we've had over this "100-0 in one rotation of your spells in 1 second regardless of what you are playing because everyone is an assassin now" meta

Including the "Tristana can literally kill you in 2 AAs" meta we had last year?

IainG103 votes

If it's only one champ that can be perma-banned, instead of the current 70% of the roster, you're damn right I'll take it!

chipndip12 votes

{quoted}

If it's only one champ that can be perma-banned, instead of the current 70% of the roster, you're damn right I'll take it!

It wasn't just Tristana.

Lovelle1 votes

I wish I could be an assassin with Trundle

SwiftKitten885 votes

.. who had the foresight?

everyone.. except you apparently

lets address your issues

1 tanks.. no... it wont be a tank meta...

ADC's jobs are to kill tanks NOT the squishies

ADC's job isnt to KILL EVERYONE AND EVERYTHING

adcs job is to deal damage after everything is on cooldown for all other players adc's wont "burst people down" becuase they dont burst ANYONE down.. they dont DO BURST they do low sustained damage

thats thier job...

its was only the 2nd half of season 5 that the game really started to head in the direction of season 6

the first half wasnt bad... but season 4 was the best ... not season 5


point two marksmen

again.. this wont be an issue.. becuase marks men WONT BE BURSTING YOUR DOWN

the vast majoirty of damage creep isnt from changes to actaul champion numbers.. its from runes and ITEMS

you say "oh thier still going to melt you with crits"

no... they WON'T becuase they wont HAVE ways to get crits like they do now

lategame in early seasons.. marksmen had what 50-60% crit?

there will BE no item 3095 there will BE no item 3094 item 3147 item 3813item 3508 or any fo the other horrendous shit riot has added to make marksmen do burst damage instead of sustained

all you think oyu "oh wel are going to lower the damage.

we arnt goign to fucking lower the damage and keep the same issues... and just make it so every champion deals 1/4th the damage to every other champion becuase damage is 4x higher than what it used to be

we are going to REMOVE the issues the CAUSES of "burst damage"

that means no more "lethality" it means no more item 3147 item 3814

tanks wont have things like item 3193

supports wont have item 3109

supportsd will get sightstone and ruby sightstone back we will get out actives like item 3312 back

this is make it so mage support wont be rushing damage as thier first 1300 will be going toward THOSE after item 3098 instead of pure damage like they are now.

which is why support damage has gone way up.. and why surivability and tanks supports have gone down

enchanters? no they WONT be OP

becuase we will no longer Have +SHIELDING AND HEALING ITEMs

we will have our old shield on item 3190 and item 3504 wiThout the shield power.

and we wont have item 3107

item 3174 will actaully be a freaking mage item and noT some supporty thing.

scuttle will be fucking reverted

mage items from what i can tell.. have really crept much outside of item 3089 and item 3135

but lowered to 25% and 30% respectively they will be fine

i think item 3030 could be deleted,, and protobelt could lose the damage portion of the active and just keep the dash

stop acting like "fixing damage creep ids going to cause issues because of the new things that were introduced that caused damage creep"

by REMOVING damage creep, we will be REMOVING the things that caused the items and runes, along with the thing that happened BECAUSE of it like item 3193 item 3109 and + shielding and healing.

and by "we" i mean no one, because this is riot... its never going to happen... this was all hypothetical anyways...

Moody P11 votes

why do you fundamentally misunderstand what a carry's job is to do? a damage carry's job is specifically to kill everyone given enough time to do it. this means that yes, you, a squishy champion, will die to a carry if they have time to kill you.

NoDiscussion4 votes

Because damage overall can be nerfed. Runes Reforged anyone?

Minimac20002 votes

Yes foresight. If damage is lowered I am seeing tanks and enchanters being actual champions again *the horror And maybe even adcs taking 5 autos to kill instead of 2 again *screams *clearly sarcastic

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

Yes foresight. If damage is lowered I am seeing tanks and enchanters being actual champions again *the horror

Tanks ARE actual champions. Tanks will never be top tier champions in solo queue as a collective. Whenever this is the case, they're grossly over tuned.

And maybe even adcs taking 5 autos to kill instead of 2 again *screams *clearly sarcastic

THEY DO RIGHT NOW.

Minimac20001 votes

{quoted}

Tanks ARE actual champions. Tanks will never be top tier champions in solo queue as a collective. Whenever this is the case, they're grossly over tuned.

THEY DO RIGHT NOW.

*Doubt Tanks are really not worth playing at all right now. Slightly suboptimal would be understandable, but I haven't seen a tank jungler in actually a year. Hybrid champions galio,amumu, gragas, all build straight ap bc building hp/resists is actually trolling. The only place tanks are mildly viable is alistar bot lane and sion top lane, that's literally it

Moonscourge1 votes

Looks like the circle jerk army has arrived. What you say holds much truth, but the silvers on here don't care. I hope this thread doesn't get lost due to that

WeaselRune2 votes

Yeah all these people making counterpoints, attempting to debunk false arguments, disagreeing with subjective opinions... why not make some points of your own... or are you just here to circle-jerk with the OP?

I think we know....

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

Yeah all these people making counterpoints, attempting to debunk false arguments, disagreeing with subjective opinions... why not make some points of your own... or are you just here to circle-jerk with the OP?

I think we know....

What false argument? That tanks and hyper-carries and enchanters enjoy longer fights and assassins and divers enjoy shorter ones?

WeaselRune1 votes

HA...hahaha... youre going to sit there, type that and pretend like thats all you said?

Fine, here is one of the biggest issues I had with your "opinion."

Damage isn't too high if you're actually using your head.

What the actual fuck.

Damage is high... higher than Iv ever seen it. You MAY avoid feeding by using your head. You MAY slow your enemy laners snowball by using your head. You MAY even build a good counter item to avoid dying at all by using your head...

No amount of using your head is going to make the damage less. The damage is there, it just is. The damage is really high right now because runes reforged has so much more damage in them than masteries ever did, and without actual runes we have fewer resistances, and even if we did have them theres so much damn true damage in the game its bordering on silly.

Your post just shows so much fundamental lack of understanding of an overall team composition dynamic I dont even think I can explain it to you. Im not even trying to sound elitist, youre Janna/Alistar section shows too well. First, theres a thing called pick order. If someone wants to pick Janna as a counterpick to a hard engage support, it should do something. As we are now, enchanters... hell champs designed as primary supports in general are being forced out hard.

Not just supports, but more and more champs and kits are being edged out of the game.

You bitch about season 5, but the way I remember season 5 it had some of the widest champ diversity. There were a LOT flexible picks in every role aside from marksman/bottom. Sure Vayne was pick/ban, nothing is going to be perfect. As we are now, Lucian is back to being a problem, Kaisa, and Xayah are the other two that you see tearing up the lane. Pick your poison, theres probably always going to only be a few super meta marksmen.

The "META" were in only sees the best burst champs, with some CC thrown in so people can catch up to pop people like baloons. Sustained damage champs may see play in LCS, but I dont play there.

An example is Rumble .

Iv never been a huge fan of Rumble, but I havent seen him almost all last season or any this season. He has always been a sustained damage champ. Putting out moderate damage over a longer period of time... But he doesnt roll out and pop people, so hes out of meta. Just like a lot of supports... and other champs, narrowing the options in the game.

We have fewer champs we can play now cause if youre not popping people before they can pop you, youre dead. You want this level of interaction with a game, go play a clicker game.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

HA...hahaha... youre going to sit there, type that and pretend like thats all you said?

Fine, here is one of the biggest issues I had with your "opinion."

What the actual fuck.

Damage is high... higher than Iv ever seen it. You MAY avoid feeding by using your head. You MAY slow your enemy laners snowball by using your head. You MAY even build a good counter item to avoid dying at all by using your head...

...that, full stop, is the point of competitive...gaming...across any genre.

Like...you not feeding isn't a right. You're supposed to earn it. If you get bodied 2 or 3 times, your opponent earned the right to either become incredibly tanky way sooner or become a significantly stronger damage threat sooner than he would. You MAY do any of those things, and you MAY not. That's the skill check. Don't get mad at the game for you failing the skill check.

Like...reread that to yourself and really ponder on what would have you assume that it's somehow bad that it's possible to die in the early game.

No amount of using your head is going to make the damage less. The damage is there, it just is. The damage is really high right now because runes reforged has so much more damage in them than masteries ever did, and without actual runes we have fewer resistances, and even if we did have them theres so much damn true damage in the game its bordering on silly.

Riot's been steadily taking damage out of simpler sources, like raw AP and AD, over the course of time. PLENTY of items had more damage stats in the past than they do now. So while we've lost resistances in tank items, damage dealers have lost damage in PLENTY of their own items.

The resistances that were taken out were put into specific champion kits, namely tanks...which no one plays. So yeah, Randuin's Omen doesn't give like 600 HP, but you're supposed to have a tank on your team who's supposed to have the kit necessary to last in a team fight (when played properly), anyway. People just choose not to. That isn't the game's fault when your top lane's Fiora and your jg is K6. Also isn't the game's fault when you feed a carry and expect to tank them head on for 5+ seconds with your Chain Vest. You're thinking way to static. This game has too many variables for that type of stiff mentality.

Your post just shows so much fundamental lack of understanding of an overall team composition dynamic I dont even think I can explain it to you. Im not even trying to sound elitist, youre Janna/Alistar section shows too well. First, theres a thing called pick order. If someone wants to pick Janna as a counterpick to a hard engage support, it should do something. As we are now, enchanters... hell champs designed as primary supports in general are being forced out hard.

We know this.

I honestly disregard it and I main enchanters.

Why? They're insanely toxic. All of them.

Whenever something like a Janna is top tier, the entirety of bot lane just gets forced into a state where aggression and risk taking is entirely negated. They nullify most, if not all, divers and assassins, to boot. You wouldn't have to put enchanters in a state where they're lack-luster if they offered room for actual counter-play when they're good, but they don't and never have, save Zilean. That's why enchanters in solo lanes got gutted, that's why enchanters in bot lane aren't pro viable anymore, and that's why I haven't said anything about straight buffing them in ages. Until we see Riot put a single lick of interest in modernizing enchanters as a concept, they should be NOWHERE NEAR pro viability, and I'm stressing pro play because they're honestly well off enough in solo queue, have been for quite a while, now, and I have 0 clue as to why you're whining about them in that space.

But I agree that I'd LOVE to see some Nami representation in the LCS one day.

Not just supports, but more and more champs and kits are being edged out of the game.

Care to provide examples or are we just throwing shit around?

You bitch about season 5, but the way I remember season 5 it had some of the widest champ diversity. There were a LOT flexible picks in every role aside from marksman/bottom. Sure Vayne was pick/ban, nothing is going to be perfect. As we are now, Lucian is back to being a problem, Kaisa, and Xayah are the other two that you see tearing up the lane. Pick your poison, theres probably always going to only be a few super meta marksmen.

Then why talk about season 5's bot lane diversity when it had none?

And when did shoving tanks in every lane position count as diversity?

The "META" were in only sees the best burst champs, with some CC thrown in so people can catch up to pop people like baloons. Sustained damage champs may see play in LCS, but I dont play there.

Don't blame morons in solo queue for the balance of League of Legends. Solo queue in League is different from League. Asking for the game to be solely balanced on solo queue's antics is asking to balance the game around playing it wrong, especially when you beg for that balance to be catered to lower elo'd players (I currently have 0 clue about your current elo, so don't holler...).

An example is Rumble .

Iv never been a huge fan of Rumble, but I havent seen him almost all last season or any this season.

He's an ugly champion that's kind of unorthodox with how his spells work and only really shows up in solo queue when he's over tuned. Some champs are just unpopular, but that doesn't mean the sky's falling.

We have fewer champs we can play now cause if youre not popping people before they can pop you, youre dead.

Riot's toned down a ton of the upfront burst in the game in comparison to season 8 and early preseason. I don't think this holds that much unless you actively choose to build your champ and team comp that way, but with how much everyone just loves propping damage dealing on a pedestal unless defense is blatantly broken, maybe that's your experience.

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