Phreak had some interesting thoughts on mobile champs being balanced around possessing lower winrate

Hexs Fortune·Nov 14, 2018·67 votes·20,090 views

Phreak comments on how / being strong is more frustrating than because talon has a tougher time getting out after his combo

He expands the discussion towards ADC and how a strong / is more acceptable by the community because they die if you can get on them, where as a strong don't necessarily die when you catch them.

is another champ that is strong, yet dies most of the time when caught.

What do you think about balancing around this ideology?

141 Comments

ŚhunpoNov 14, 201828 votes

I'll just leave this here..... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JmtA_G7NL8

My Waifu VanillaNov 14, 20189 votes

Jhin IS immobile though. If any diver gets on Jhin he dies. Ashe would have done the exact same thing to that Darius by just perma slowing him.

Electro522Nov 14, 201831 votes

Admittedly, though, Ashe is FAR less forgiving in these situations. Take one misstep, and that Darius has you. Here, that Darius simply couldn't catch the Jhin, even if he did make a misstep.

NineTailedMysticNov 15, 20184 votes

Darius was gaining on Jhin over time though.

BLIGHTBRINGERNov 15, 20182 votes

Aren't champion like Darius suppose to have the same weakness of being immobile for being so hard to fight him in close range.

Yet he was running consistently at almost Jhin's speed with Dead Man's Plate.

As for Jhin he is immobile, but these stupid Stormrazor interactions is the result of what we are seeing in the video along with Fleet Footwork/Hail of Blades.

ŚhunpoNov 14, 201828 votes

So long as Stormrazor exists I'm going to continue to disagree with the whole "Jhin is immobile" statement.

My Waifu VanillaNov 14, 20184 votes

Jhin gets MASSIVE movement speed for one auto attack. Assuming he can even get that auto off. The second Irelia, Jax, Camille, Kassadin, Talon, Xin, etc. etc. get on Jhin he simply dies unless he is maybe standing on one of his own traps pre-placed down. This is especially true now that he is using Fleet as opposed to when he got the massive amount of movement speed from HoB.

ŚhunpoNov 14, 201817 votes

By that logic he's not immobile. Massive movement speed = mobile. I'm sorry but that's just how it works logically.

This problem wouldn't exist if Stormrazor didn't exist.

FNC 6ixGODNov 14, 20187 votes

Udyr is also mobile, he has so much MS with certain items and his bear stance.

ŚhunpoNov 14, 20183 votes

Yes, Udyr is a fast boi.

Tomoe GozenNov 14, 20182 votes

I wouldn't blame Stormrazor. Jhin's whole point is that his AD is massive since he can only shoot 4 times, 4th shot being a crit. So why do his 3 regular attacks also crit and contribute to his massive MS bonus from passive?

Having a super scaling AD doesn't require a lot of crit, considering what Jhin is able to do with it. At least that's my reasoning. I wouldn't blame Stormrazor for this one interaction.

ŚhunpoNov 14, 20184 votes

I mean, it wasn't a problem before Stormrazor [zombie-brand-clap]

My Waifu VanillaNov 14, 20182 votes

Yes it was? When he went full lethality after the rework he was two tapping people with R from across the map. The difference now is his autos hurt more and as opposed to his Q+W+R+4th shot. You exchange spell damage for consistent autos and movement speed while having a glorified slow on your ultimate until 3 items.

ŚhunpoNov 14, 20183 votes

Did he run at mach 5 while dealing immense amounts of damage? No he did not. That's the differing factor at play here.

GayFluffyUnicornNov 14, 20186 votes

A permanent what? 40%? MS boost on every auto is FAR from being immobile. You guys should start getting this delusion out of your head that only blinks and dashes counts as mobility. This clip is just INSANE how he runs over half the lane after one auto. Especially considering how he killed a squishy in a Q auto.

My Waifu VanillaNov 14, 20182 votes

It was Auto (crit) + Q + Auto (4th shot which does missing health damage).
Xayah would have done the exact same thing to another carry with Auto+Q+Auto+E on what seems like 2.5 items. There was zero reason for Xayah to commit that hard to that fight. He was going to run it down into the tier 3 tower and she already tagged him with an auto attack. She dies for zero reason here.

TwitchInMyPantsNov 14, 20186 votes

{quoted}

I'll just leave this here..... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JmtA_G7NL8

It's also worth noting he was tickling Darius' health bar every auto and most Jhin players have a rapidfire cannon and IE for all their crit chance. Most Jhin builds aren't running around with 100% crit chance and Xayah had no lifesteal and disrespected Jhin despite just eating a rapidfire shot and having a level disadvantage that was likely also a gold disadvantage.

For all intents and purposes in a standard League game, Jhin is immobile. If we're looking at THE FAST, then you're looking at a Jhin with less damage potential.

ŚhunpoNov 14, 20186 votes

"It's also worth noting he was tickling Darius' health bar every auto"

And then he proceeds to 100-0 Xayah with only 2 bullets and abilities. Darius was building armour.

Why are you even defending "the fast"? It's so obnoxious it's not funny. Then again, you might not be, in which case forgive me for jumping to conclusions, I just hate "the fast".

BONUS DMG 2NOOBSNov 14, 20187 votes

{quoted}

It's also worth noting he was tickling Darius' health bar every auto and most Jhin players have a rapidfire cannon and IE for all their crit chance. Most Jhin builds aren't running around with 100% crit chance and Xayah had no lifesteal and disrespected Jhin despite just eating a rapidfire shot and having a level disadvantage that was likely also a gold disadvantage.

For all intents and purposes in a standard League game, Jhin is immobile. If we're looking at THE FAST, then you're looking at a Jhin with less damage potential.

LOL Darius had deadmans plate and cannot chase him down. Literally WTF is the point of that item if it cannot move faster than an ADC "walking away"

ParoeNov 14, 20182 votes

{quoted}

It's also worth noting he was tickling Darius' health bar every auto and most Jhin players have a rapidfire cannon and IE for all their crit chance. Most Jhin builds aren't running around with 100% crit chance and Xayah had no lifesteal and disrespected Jhin despite just eating a rapidfire shot and having a level disadvantage that was likely also a gold disadvantage.

For all intents and purposes in a standard League game, Jhin is immobile. If we're looking at THE FAST, then you're looking at a Jhin with less damage potential.

In a standard game Jhin has storm razor as his first item. With a stable 500+ms, jhin is considered mobile due to how he is very difficult to punish unless he misplays.

Hes Mobile in the same way Udyr is mobile.

LordKentravyonNov 15, 20182 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AytQe1_ZbQs I prefer showcasing this garbage with this clip Nothing like having someone walk away from you while under the effect of frozen mallet.

And as someone who has more mastery with Jhin then any other champion, this shit needs to go . This is not the kind of game play that made me fall in lover with the champion.

Hayaishi2Nov 14, 201821 votes

Of course. You misposition as an immobile champion? dead?

Enemy Vayne mispositions? ENEMY TRIPLE KILL. This is why Vayne should never be allowed to be strong.

DarukongSrNov 14, 20185 votes

{quoted}

Of course. You misposition as an immobile champion? dead?

Enemy Vayne mispositions? ENEMY TRIPLE KILL. This is why Vayne should never be allowed to be strong.

I agree, vaune is a super toxic design tbh

MordepoolNov 14, 201818 votes

I thought balancing around agency was the goal.

And that they dont balance around Skin sales & LCS big plays

ModCaptainMårvelousNov 14, 20188 votes

{quoted}

I thought balancing around agency was the goal.

And that they dont balance around Skin sales & LCS big plays

Phreak isn't on the balance team and the broadcast team (both caster and analyst) have gone on record at criticizing some decisions the balance team has made before.

Just because Phreak works at Riot doesn't mean he can't speak his mind about his opinions on what he thinks is good or bad for the game, regardless if his opinion is right and/or wrong.

JuiceNov 14, 201818 votes

And then Riot releases Pyke. The most mobile cancerous champion in the game atm because muhh mobility and resets are so fun

TheSymbolÔfPeaceNov 14, 201816 votes

Hands down a great way of seeing it. He even stated that if League wants to be a fun game, champions such as Akali and LeBlanc (but what about Irelia) need to have a sub 50% WR.

Prestige AkaIiNov 14, 20185 votes

Already done with Akali, idk about leblanc tho.

Akali has 45.1%wr at the time of me posting this. She's fine then, right?

ZardoNov 14, 20183 votes

Also has a stupid high playrate/banrate so we'll have to see as the patch progresses

ReformedfindlayNov 15, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Bad Akali,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1mIGb5Qj,comment-id=00100000,timestamp=2018-11-14T17:11:16.643+0000)

Already done with Akali, idk about leblanc tho.

Akali has 45.1%wr at the time of me posting this. She's fine then, right?

I really dont think akali is an issue right now. Community being community.

Problematic champs right now are lucian, vayne (she needs a rework), K-A-S-S-A-D-I-N, Lissandra, and Jax.

CppLNov 14, 20189 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hexs Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1mIGb5Qj,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-11-14T04:16:23.312+0000)

https://youtu.be/PQOaXxpmlEQ?t=448

He comments on how / being strong is more frustrating than because talon has a tougher time getting out after you catch him.

He expands the discussion towards ADC and how a strong / is more acceptable by the community because they die if you can get on them, where as a strong don't necessarily die when you catch them.

** is another champ that is strong, yet dies most of the time when caught.**

What do you think about balancing around this ideology?

Yea ,but if you wont cc lock him ,hes gonna nuke half your team before he dies.Just saying...

JeaneGreeneNov 14, 20187 votes

The issue arises when you see someone like Mordekaiser , who has no mobility or range. Because of mobility creep, anyone who has a dash beats him. As such, he drops to an abysmal state where he can’t really be played well.

MordepoolNov 14, 201812 votes

I play him well all the time. That doesnt mean im not at an inherent disadvantage.

Just means i have alot less agency over the game. Mobility= agency after all.

There are alot of champions Morde just loses too. no effort just your kit loses to that kit. Most of those champion kits lack counterplay so its not a problem on Mordes part.

GigglesONov 14, 20184 votes

{quoted}

I play him well all the time. That doesnt mean im not at an inherent disadvantage.

Just means i have alot less agency over the game. Mobility= agency after all.

There are alot of champions Morde just loses too. no effort just your kit loses to that kit. Most of those champion kits lack counterplay so its not a problem on Mordes part.

Irelia

[sg-miss-fortune]

High mobility, good base stats, damage reduction, built in healing, cc?

what isn't she good at?

NevrankroatonNov 14, 201811 votes

The case of mordekaiser is also particular. He is an old champion with a revisited kit in a game who evolved way differently. He is kinda doomed to 'fail'.

MordepoolNov 14, 20187 votes

Get that garbage out of here. Mordes been doing just fine ever since the Ranged stat checkers got a justified nerf

NevrankroatonNov 14, 20184 votes

It isn't the question, Mordekaiser is a VERY VERY old champ with still an outdated kit that doesn't fit his theme or character. League evolved a lot during theses past years and some old champions are doomed to be severly outdated or even to fail because of how their kit work. League accepted to take mobility as a normal component like other MOBA instead of making it special, I feel it is important Mordekaiser get a rework that allow him to work around that instead of saying "MOBILITY SHOULDN'T WORK, RANGED SHOULDN'T BE STRONG" because it punish an outdated kit.

TonyTonyMordecaiNov 14, 20182 votes

Would giving Mordekaiser "grounded" as a cc on one of his spells be acceptable (if he were to stay immobile)? Then again, all depends on what he gets on his proper update.

NevrankroatonNov 14, 20182 votes

It can be, there is so many way to make an 'immobile' champion strong against mobility but it is also important to not especially make him around that. Hell, maybe new mord will have some sort of mobility or long range tool that will allow him to smash these damn ranged ennemies.

GigglesONov 14, 20183 votes

{quoted}

It isn't the question, Mordekaiser is a VERY VERY old champ with still an outdated kit that doesn't fit his theme or character. League evolved a lot during theses past years and some old champions are doomed to be severly outdated or even to fail because of how their kit work. League accepted to take mobility as a normal component like other MOBA instead of making it special, I feel it is important Mordekaiser get a rework that allow him to work around that instead of saying "MOBILITY SHOULDN'T WORK, RANGED SHOULDN'T BE STRONG" because it punish an outdated kit.

Damage dealt by spells that grant mobility deal half damage.

Would be funny as hell.

saltranNov 14, 20183 votes

So, Caitlyn, Varus and Trist needed to have a 45% winrate in order to make Morde "fine", no wonder why it didn't last longer than a few patchs.

Morde needs a rework asasp, not to balance the game around his outdated kit.

Stróc DúnmharúNov 14, 20187 votes

More mobile or "better at escaping" shouldn't automatically mean the champion needs to have a lower win rate. It SHOULD mean that the champion should either deal less damage in exchange for their greater ability to escape danger, or pop like a balloon when they get caught.

Also, make Guardian Angel a pure defense item again. No AD, no AP, just armor and MR. If you don't want tanks building it, makes its MR and Armor really inefficient, like 25 each for its full price, so that when you don't have its resurrection passive available its REALLY bad.

Atom KnightNov 14, 201810 votes

riot has abandoned the philosophy of giving champs pros and cons. You can see this by how outclassed the older champs are like morde or malphite. old champs = high base dmg? long cooldowns, high mana usage, little mobility. Champs now = absurd base dmg, multiple forms of mobility, cc, % health dmg, whats mana usage?

GigglesONov 14, 20183 votes

{quoted}

riot has abandoned the philosophy of giving champs pros and cons. You can see this by how outclassed the older champs are like morde or malphite. old champs = high base dmg? long cooldowns, high mana usage, little mobility. Champs now = absurd base dmg, multiple forms of mobility, cc, % health dmg, whats mana usage?

The mana is what really bothers me. Morse was supposed to have a trade off of low base stats and HP costs but if played right should be able to stay in lane longer because of shielding/healing. Now I see the enemy just spam cast and I’m like damn I thought I was supposed to have this advantage.

TrevorAluNov 14, 20186 votes

As long as Jhin doesn't have 1000 MS he doesn't have an escape lul

haaaaaaalpNov 14, 20185 votes

That should be pretty basic. Every champion should have a power budget including mobility, escape, cc, damage, hp, range, etc. Champions who have more power in one area, such as mobility or escape, should have less power in other areas. In the past, Riot had a tendency to undervalued mobility which is why mobile champions have been so much stronger than immobile champions. They were better about this overall this season although the top end champions are obviously still way too strong (this applies for top end immobile champions as well).

Madsin25Nov 14, 20185 votes

Wait...so gets to stay disgusting because he has no mobility?

You don't need mobility with item 3116 and a combo that is guaranteed to kill any squishy.(and stun them with no fear of taking retaliation)

E+Q+W+R = any squishy instantly dead.

Also doesn't help that brand is the biggest cock block to engage in the game.

DolasaurNov 14, 20182 votes

Anivia Janna Alistar Azir

Brand can take great advantage of a good counterengage from his team. But he's hardly top tier at disrupting engages. First R target can Flash out of bounce range and then he's done as an anti-engage threat.