Boards›Gameplay

@Riot Reav3 & Ghostcrawler Time to Work on Failed Reworks/Relaunch - Karma/Morde/Shen

Winterkill··8 votes·1,134 views

Karma, Morde and Shen were an experiment. I read your blog post Ghostcrawler and I find it a bit hypocritical of you to say the things you did. All three of these champions were diverse and had unique kits, but you "experimented" on them and removed what players loved on them. You completely annihilated Karma. You forced Morde into something he wasn't supposed to be. You cannot seem to work on rectifying simple mistakes on Shen because you are too lazy to work on him. I read your article and I don't believe a single word you say. If you can justify working on Ekko more than you have on Karma, Morde, and Shen since his release. You can justify working on Ryze 7 times to make him more diverse. You can justify working on Brand and Velkoz to make them more diverse. You want to know what all of these champions have in common on their work? You kept things in their kit that made them diverse. You compltely removed what made Karma, Morde, and Shen diverse and you ignore it for almost 4 years for some champions.

Karma - 4 years ago Karma was relaunched and you completely removed her identity. You stripped her of unique kit, removed her fans, reworked her into a champion with no direction and abilities that function like something else in the game, and completely annihilated her visual update by not bothering to complete it. Let's add the fact that she is now a shield bot that only presses one button late game. She goes from having a lot of power as a mage early game to a shield bot support late game.

She went from being a mage pre-relaunch and having a decent fan base, to a support that functions as a one button click champion with overpowered shields. Did she have problems with her old kit? Yes she certainly did. Did Karma need this relaunch that removed everything in her kit? No. You could have kept elements of her kit and balanced it and made it better, since the kit was already unique in its own way. Karma mains have said multiple times to you, we do not like the mass shields. We do not want it on her kit. We do not want you to continue to buff an ability that was replaced with something that could have been balanced, could have been reworked, and etc. You replaced it with an unoriginal idea that is already in the game as an active for Iron Locket.

What makes this even more frustrating is that you, in a sense, gave Ivern a shield bomb on his kit. Isn't your team being a bit hypocritical by saying you removed it on this champion because of a said reason, but gave it to this new champion because you wanted to make that champion better than Karma. Ivern's ability is a shield, it explodes everything around it, and it does damage. You removed shield bomb from Karma because of the reasons you are giving it to Ivern now.

I'm just saying this because everything you do on Karma is half worked on, even the new skin, and you continue to ignore her. 4 years now and you continue to do the same work on her . . . . buff something in her kit . . . . nerf it. Ignore any suggestion and threads . . . . . and it is our fault. You tell us we do not give you feedback on her . . . yet you don't communicate anything.

I WANT KARMA, MORDE AND SHEN PLAYERS TO RESPOND IN THIS THREAD. Please, if you are going to sit here and be negative to us, don't bother. This is an attempt to get Riot talking about problems with Karma, Morde and Shen. All three of them were distinct and had kits that were unique. You removed it for an experiment, yet the work you did on other champions preserved their distinctiveness.

This excuse RIot Games that Karma's kit and visual update has been out far too long for you to make her distinct, is not cutting it. This excuse that Morde is actually doing well in the game, is not cutting it. This excuse that you prioritize work 7 times on Ryze, almost 4 plus times on Ekko in 2016, and think making Velkoz and Brand more distinct over Karma, Morde and Shen . . . makes you come off as uncaring Developers. Stop making hypocritical blog posts and saying one thing, when you are doing nothing for champions like Karma, Morde and Shen for almost 4 years now. We can also throw Vlad and other champions into this mess because . . . . yet again . . . . another instance where they had distinctive kits that you completely changed . . . . but preserved and made better for champions like Ryze, Brand, and Velkoz

19 Comments

SilverSquid6 votes

Hi there, Karma Karma main here

You removed shield bomb from Karma because of the reasons you are giving it to Ivern now.

That's not quite true. The reasons they gave were these:

"Quick note on removing the damage on Mantra'd W / E - a goal here was to differentiate Karma's contextual decision making when selecting an ability to Mantra (super root? mega shield?), so we went down that path. Additionally, removing damage on R-E means we can up the ante on Gathering Fire's cooldown reduction without seeing Karma throw out a Mantra'd E every 6 seconds in clumpy team fights."

This was frustrating to me, because arguably, the changes made her "contextual decision making" worse than ever before. Her super root was an awful idea, Karma mains usually don't like the mega shield and no Rioter could ever explain to me why removing Karma's most unique damage spell - that was a huge part of her identity for 4 years - was worth the simple numbers buff on her passive (that most people don't like either).

The 3.5 rework failed because Riot didn't talk with us The 5.10 update failed because Rick didn't talk with us. The 6.6 shieldbuff failed because they didn't listen to us. ....does anybody spot a pattern?

Winterkill1 votes

Then wouldn't have made more sense to fix thd passive or remove it?

IxtaliKing2 votes

Of course, but Rickless thought RQ hadoukens were the best thing about Karma, so he made sure she could do it more often... (-_- )

Winterkill1 votes

and made it bad late game.

SilverSquid1 votes

There is a lot that would've made more sense than what ricklessabandon did....

Twitch Chat2 votes

Also I find it strange when talking about botched reworks that Gragas is never mentioned. The rework removed a playstyle that was far more fun in favor of one that is just as binary and far more low counterplay. The whole thing was ruined the moment they decided to put the stun on body slam. With such a reliable and potent initiation suddenly everything else has to go in the trash and now he's a bodyslam flash ult bot. Great rework.

Im all for a gragas that throws around his own weight rather than atomic barrels but come on this rework is garbage.

Mordepool1 votes

Morde still kept his diversity. Which is his passive and ultimate. The experiment was very devastating to Mordekaiser mains. Having played him since S1. I Knew his old kit was too binary oppressive and needed healthy changes. I can't help but feel we got cheated out of our Rework slot which I waited 5 years for

Winterkill1 votes

exactly. i heard that the ryali nerf is going to make it harder to play as him as well. i used to see him everywhere before his rework. now i see him nowhere. the few times i have seen him people fed on him. it's sad.

i heard sol, illaoi, and chogath are being strongly considered for the next VGU after galio. makes you think if riot actually cares about anything in this game.

SilverSquid2 votes

i heard sol, illaoi, and chogath are being strongly considered for the next VGU after galio.

Excuse me? A visual and gameplay update?? Visual??? I mean, the gameplay update is already ridiculous, but VISUAL too????

IxtaliKing1 votes

They're not getting a VGU, just a possible mini rework. In A Sol's case a mini rework aimed at making him more accessible, bit sure about Illaoi though.

SilverSquid1 votes

Thank you. Still kinda weird. What exactly is wrong with sol?

IxtaliKing1 votes

Jeremy "Gaming Curios" made a video about it. I didn't realise he issues until I watched that tbh. Btw I've tried requesting he do a video about what Karma could have been and linked your Rework thread to him, don't think he saw though lol.

SilverSquid1 votes

I see. I mean, I can understand the reasoning. I had troubles spotting it, because Aurelion's issues are so different from Karma's problems. He does have a sufficient skillceiling, he does have unique spells, he does have an identity, he does have clear strengths and weaknesses. But it's also apparant that it's not as perfect as one might set it out to be.

It's still confusing that they go right back to fixing him so fast, while refusing to revisit Karma. One might argue, that that's because Karma's issues don't affect game health, but I don't know if that's a good argument.

IxtaliKing3 votes

Yeah... I really can't see an argument for giving Aurelion Sol a mini rework before Karma. The only time Karma is picked is when she is doing a common thing better than Enchanters, whilst also having more damage than them. Not sure why they want her to be an Enchanter so bad when she has so much more to offer as a Battle Mage.

Ahristocats1 votes

i love new morde, this is where my opinion is different from malicious, there are some things that i find really good on him, and that's why i don't want him to get a vgu (but he will get one so it doesn't matter) i absolutly love new morde what i think is that his new W is something that improved with the new rework (beside the xp passive)

i love the idea of ADC morde, and i love the idea of third hit tons of damage spell, and his W healing. Mordekaiser is the only one in the game that can heal a laner or a jungler by going into the monsters, he's also the only juggernaut who can heal an ally/giving them movement speed.

New morde opened better ways to balance the champ like DPS instead of burst, and he's definitly fun to play

My only problem actually with rework is the xp passive, the idea is bullshit and made morde nerfed into oblivion. ADC morde didn't need an xp passive to be viable, and it made him nerfed into hell bringing solo lane morde in it. the second problem is that he was depending on Rylai a lot, he was (in my opinion) perfect before Rylai nerf, and now he got hit too hard.

Twitch Chat1 votes

The problem with Shen is unless you change his ult whether or not he gets played will depend 100% on if he is dominant in lane. With lane control his global pressure is devastating. When tower hugging vs a stronger opponent not so much.

-1% max HP per Q attack is all it takes to take Shen from pick/ban to dumpster tier. Same way with the old kit. It'll be the same way with the new kit if they keep stand united.

M0RDEKA1SER1 votes

There are things about pre- and post- rework Morde that I liked. The old Mordekaiser would really struggle with the current items because they removed a lot of spell vamp, which was about the only way he could sustain through all of his health costs. His new W makes up for that.

He's way too fucking slow, that's obvious, and I would be okay with that if he had the damage to make up for it. Or if he wouldn't get deleted in 1.5 seconds. But as it stands, he does really good damage, and survives really well, IF he can stay in the fight, but without a decent move speed, he can't seem to do much of anything anymore.

I won't give up playing him, just because I love his theme and playstyle, but damnit, it's getting unbearable to load into a match just knowing the handicap I'm taking to play a Champion I love.

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

Just gonna bump this thread.

Haven't played any of the champs here but I beleive in your cause.

While it's true that these champs were among the first reworked, they weren't exactly technically ruined in the sense that they are unhealthy. With the possible exception of Morde.

I always found Karma as an inspiring leader, hence her teamwide buffs and chase potential.

But that's just me, haven't played when old Karma was around, but looking at her kit from a new player's perspective she doesn't scream rework like some of the other champs.

Winterkill1 votes

BUMP. :D

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by Winterkill

2019 Needs Damage Toned Down, Developers Being Held Accountable, & Work Done on Mistakes
Gameplay85 comments
147
votes
Im Defeated and Done with LoL. It's Not Fun Anymore
Gameplay95 comments
109
votes
Focus on Mini-VGU & Not on New Champions
Story, Art, & Sound69 comments
80
votes
Again, Why Are We Buffing/Nerfing Karma if You are Canceling GU and Doing Nothing?
Gameplay41 comments
69
votes
Karma is Horrendous to Play Now
Gameplay44 comments
39
votes
Hextech Too Strong. Will Be Broken for 4 Weeks.
Teamfight Tactics17 comments
30
votes