"Blah blah blah we want to make champs have different power curves and here's a wall of text on the game design philosophy behind it blah blah blah"
But it's irrelevant because we understand the concept and the actual issue is that a 90 minute power curve makes a champion worthless.
Either change the meta into a defensive grindfest or don't make power curves like this.
BrickRocket25 votesThey don't want her to be a lane bully. But... the new passive encourages her to be a lane bully or else she wont get her stacks quite as fast. Her passive is contradicting what riot wants to do with her general playstyle; They'll be better off if they throw it in the trash. Most of us hate it anyhow.
RiotRiot Scruffy28 votesThe passive encourages her to trade and interact with her opponent in lane, this doesn't necessarily make her a lane bully. From the work that Stashu is doing for her in the upcoming patch, we hope to make her power curve less steep than it currently is. The changes he is working on felt really good to play as a Cass player for multiple reasons:
-Buffs, because honestly she is weak on live currently
-Poison focus, the payoff for a successful trade or all in pushes the power back into her poison damage, matching and enhancing the thematic feel of the kit
-More elegant passive play - by simplifying the way she stacks her passive it actually makes the choices more interesting and clear with less complexity. Do I try for Q poke on my enemy laner, do I use Q for waveclear and farm, do I E enemy for good trade damage, do I E to last hit for my mana restore, etc. The decision making felt really rich to me when I playtested it.
The current plan is to get these changes to live next patch, but it's never a finished product. If more work is to be done after that, so be it. We're in it for the long haul.
Canastus31 votesYou're clearly taking something away from her if you nerf her E-ratio along with its flat damage and the one on her Q. Especially Twin Fang will already require MORE than the 700 AP it previously needed just to get even with her pre-rework self. She's worse in every aspect, in the end you'll be spending EVEN more mana than before just to get off the poison-enhancer from her E. She'll be already oom from 2-3 rotations of this, hardly leaving her any mana to even use her E on minions.
Too bad that Twin Fang requires her to get very close to her target thus leaving her incredibly vulnerable which is unacceptable in scenarios where she's behind thus turning her disadvantage bigger and bigger. Since she has no other way of dealing damage, she'll be pretty much irrelevant for the rest of the game.
This kit will never function as long as the focus on her Twin Fang remains. And for this to change, you need to alter her passive into something greater than mere ap-enhancers which only show results if you're actually snowballing since the effect heavily relies on your ap-build. Just by purchasing defensive items, you're gimping yourself. You're forcing her to pursue a glass-cannon build which is almost impossible if you start losing your lane.
You'll be stuck with pitiful bonuses until you reach a full itemset which will be far too late then to make a difference anymore. Her passive alone is entirely insufficient at turning her into a hypercarry, so it feels like a waste of time and effort to even gather stacks.
RiotRiot Scruffy10 votesThe multiple ranges of power that Q -> E give to her kit give her in my opinion a good risk/reward curve. This same principle applies to a ton of champions (ziggs, Ahri, Velkoz, Jinx, varus, thresh, morgana, etc)
-Long range Q gives her poke, wave clear, and a safe fallback option when she doesn't want to fully commit to a dangerous range. -High payoff but shorter range E gives her increased power when she wants to all in
I think that a lot of her success really does come down to numbers. Theoretically she could be tuned up to near unstoppable levels of power with a variety of changes (movespeed on Q, Damage on any spell, etc). Give the upcoming patch changes a try and see if they help her as much as we think they will.
5G8Nri0B5422 votesyeah you see, here is the reworks problem.
Her Q...
does not offer poke because its damage without E enhancing it is negligible (make it do % dmg to keep it satisfying without being OP?). This makes landing her Q unsatisfying and pointless outside of stacking her Passive
Does not provide wave clear, because as explained above, negligible damage without E...that and mana cost. Her old passive was crucial.
Because o f #1 and #2, she has NO fallback options.
This is where a lot of sourness over her rework comes from. Its all about her E now. But her short range POINT AND CLICK E is the least satisfying and blacksheep ability in her kit.
-typed on my phone
LongFur Fox3 votesyeah you see, here is the reworks problem.
Her Q...
does not offer poke because its damage without E enhancing it is negligible (make it do % dmg to keep it satisfying without being OP?). This makes landing her Q unsatisfying and pointless outside of stacking her Passive
Does not provide wave clear, because as explained above, negligible damage without E...that and mana cost. Her old passive was crucial.
Because o f #1 and #2, she has NO fallback options.
This is where a lot of sourness over her rework comes from. Its all about her E now. But her short range POINT AND CLICK E is the least satisfying and blacksheep ability in her kit.
-typed on my phone
Wth a short ginga post? The world must be coming to an end. Your post has made me wonder though. Let's say we hypethetically can balance the rest of her kit to her q having 200% increased damage to minions (I would say this is a boring change). But would that satisfy you? It clearly solves problem 2 and gives her a clear fall back option even if that option sometimes might be what she goes for from the start.
5G8Nri0B5418 votesi hate "more damage vs minions" in general, not just in Cass. Its always unsatisfying as hell , especially when u start using the ability on targets its no extra strong vs. This is one mechanic there needs to be less of outside of potential jungling items.
I can live with Cass not being a bully anymore even if I find the logic stupid (EVERY OTHER BULLY EVER, top lane in general!).
But what I hate is how its all about her E now. Q W are unsatisfying as hell...and theyre SKILLSHOTS!
LongFur Fox4 votesGotta agree here even though our reason for hating it are different. Though the problem i personally see with giving her good poke is that if you are playing a champion with less poke than her then you effectively have nothing you can do in lane since her all in is also beast. Best way as i see it is to either make it easier for her to do her "all ins" by giving her more move speed or slow as is done now or make her into a fullblown poke mage. Well i guess you already know my standpoint on it i just want to make sure that there wasn't an easy way to make everyone happy that we forgot.
EDIT: Can see they finally changed my name... I transferred temporarily to na from euw. My old name was LongHair Fox
5G8Nri0B5411 votesI can live with her all-ins being nerfed. Why?
Because she is a POISON MAGE. She should focus on poking and running away. Not go Fist of the North Star on her opponent with her Torso-sized fangs.
I wish Stashu understood.the Poison archetype better.
So my solution? Nerf her all ins or make her E an execute. Make all her DPS be revolve around her Q W.
Khristophoros2 votesI can live with her all-ins being nerfed. Why?
Because she is a POISON MAGE. She should focus on poking and running away. Not go Fist of the North Star on her opponent with her Torso-sized fangs.
I wish Stashu understood.the Poison archetype better.
So my solution? Nerf her all ins or make her E an execute. Make all her DPS be revolve around her Q W.
This is the type of thinking that got Cass into the sorry state she's in now. When you look at a pretty solid, viable champ and say "NO! SHE SHOULD PLAY LIKE HOW I ENVISION INSTEAD OF THE WAY SHE PLAYS EVEN THOUGH IT WORKS JUST FINE!"
And then you try to force a certain playstyle and a certain power curve etc... and you just fuck everything up and the champion is in ruins for months.
Riot is never willing to revert so I think the best plan is to support their efforts to salvage the current Cass.
5G8Nri0B549 votesWhat fucked her up was all the drastic changes putting her into a completely wrong direction. So of course the way to solve it is to suggest some thing equally drastic. If not to undo the damage, then atleast to move her as far the hell away from the piece of trash she is now. Your idea of compromise leaves no one happy
Abyssphere4 votesYou're clearly taking something away from her if you nerf her E-ratio along with its flat damage and the one on her Q. Especially Twin Fang will already require MORE than the 700 AP it previously needed just to get even with her pre-rework self. She's worse in every aspect, in the end you'll be spending EVEN more mana than before just to get off the poison-enhancer from her E. She'll be already oom from 2-3 rotations of this, hardly leaving her any mana to even use her E on minions.
Too bad that Twin Fang requires her to get very close to her target thus leaving her incredibly vulnerable which is unacceptable in scenarios where she's behind thus turning her disadvantage bigger and bigger. Since she has no other way of dealing damage, she'll be pretty much irrelevant for the rest of the game.
This kit will never function as long as the focus on her Twin Fang remains. And for this to change, you need to alter her passive into something greater than mere ap-enhancers which only show results if you're actually snowballing since the effect heavily relies on your ap-build. Just by purchasing defensive items, you're gimping yourself. You're forcing her to pursue a glass-cannon build which is almost impossible if you start losing your lane.
You'll be stuck with pitiful bonuses until you reach a full itemset which will be far too late then to make a difference anymore. Her passive alone is entirely insufficient at turning her into a hypercarry, so it feels like a waste of time and effort to even gather stacks.
I believe the nerf to the base damage on her Q was reverted, it's not listed as a current PBE change on S@20. The only change to her Q right now is the movement speed buff I think. Oh and the change to the delay from 0.65 to 0.4, which is definitely a buff.
Khristophoros6 votesThe passive encourages her to trade and interact with her opponent in lane, this doesn't necessarily make her a lane bully. From the work that Stashu is doing for her in the upcoming patch, we hope to make her power curve less steep than it currently is. The changes he is working on felt really good to play as a Cass player for multiple reasons:
-Buffs, because honestly she is weak on live currently
-Poison focus, the payoff for a successful trade or all in pushes the power back into her poison damage, matching and enhancing the thematic feel of the kit
-More elegant passive play - by simplifying the way she stacks her passive it actually makes the choices more interesting and clear with less complexity. Do I try for Q poke on my enemy laner, do I use Q for waveclear and farm, do I E enemy for good trade damage, do I E to last hit for my mana restore, etc. The decision making felt really rich to me when I playtested it.
The current plan is to get these changes to live next patch, but it's never a finished product. If more work is to be done after that, so be it. We're in it for the long haul.
Thanks for the reply. Could I interest you in my other thread? http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/374T4OEH-hey-riot-mana-itemization-could-be-more-interesting
It's interesting I promise you.
Also btw, I think what really hurts Cass is the fact that she can't waveclear very well anymore. And IIRC the upcoming changes only buff her single target damage, which isn't going to fix that. Gutting the base damages on her poison AoEs really ruined her waveclear and that's kind of essential for her to compete in mid.
RiotRiot Scruffy14 votesYea, it may be the case that wave clear is still something that we need to look into after the next patch. There's no question in my mind that these upcoming changes will be buffs, so let's see how it turns out and Stashu will make more adjustments if they are needed.
Thanks for giving us reasonable and productive feedback that we can use. I'll forward the mana itemization ideas along to the Systems designers that work on that stuff.
Khristophoros3 votesYea, it may be the case that wave clear is still something that we need to look into after the next patch. There's no question in my mind that these upcoming changes will be buffs, so let's see how it turns out and Stashu will make more adjustments if they are needed.
Thanks for giving us reasonable and productive feedback that we can use. I'll forward the mana itemization ideas along to the Systems designers that work on that stuff.
Oh thank you very much. :)
RiotRiot Stashu14 votesHere are my thought's on Cassiopeia's waveclear:
There's a certain baseline of minion wave control that is necessary for a champion to function in League of Legends, especially if they fall behind a little. The original Cassiopeia changes really hurt her waveclear, particularly for her W, but also in her Q ratio for early game. However, they were supposed to enable a different farming pattern, which involved poisoning the minions and last hitting them all with E for the mana return. This is not as effective as Q/Wing the wave as Zerath, Ziggs, or old Cassiopeia, but it was intended as a viable means of controlling the minion wave nonetheless.
Of course, it's possible that it simply wasn't functional enough, or maybe it was minimally functional but her other strengths weren't expressing themselves sufficiently to account for her weaker waveclear.
So, with the upcoming changes, maxing Q first should be much more viable than previously (and thus should be a more accessible waveclear tool), and E will have 0.55 ap ratio at rank 1, so even that should be a better last hitting tool at early ranks. Further, she'll have a flatly more powerful lane presence with the other surrounding changes, which should leave her weaker wave clear as less of a crippling weakness.
Canastus15 votesI don't see how leveling her Q is going to improve her waveclearing if the numbers on it are already bad on their own. To get the enhanced poison-damage you have to use your E on EVERY single affected minion. You might aswell focus on lasthitting with E only since merely marking them would be incredibly cost-inefficient, just because you wouldn't get the refund. You can't seriously expect us to do THAT. She'd be oom just from clearing a single wave like this.
Khristophoros3 votesI don't see how leveling her Q is going to improve her waveclearing if the numbers on it are already bad on their own. To get the enhanced poison-damage you have to use your E on EVERY single affected minion. You might aswell focus on lasthitting with E only since merely marking them would be incredibly cost-inefficient, just because you wouldn't get the refund. You can't seriously expect us to do THAT. She'd be oom just from clearing a single wave like this.
I think the idea is you won't miss out on single target damage when you level Q, so then you get both. But of course the waveclear will still be weaker and less safe than before the rework which is not ideal. We'll see.
RiotRiot Stashu20 votesQuite simply, you're right. I've spoke quite a bit to this, bottom line being her curve is wayyyy too steep.
4.21 changes do a number of things to address this.
This should go a long ways towards solving the problem you're addressing here. I also think it should ease a lot of the other concerns surrounding the changes, but we'll definitely see.
So please give them a chance and let me know what you think!
Scampy14 votesYou need to make a thread where you ask Cass players what they'd like to see in a new passive. You'd get tons of new ideas and hopefully salvage this mess of a rework.
LongFur Fox3 votesHi i have been wondering if you as a proffesional game designer could take up some passive ideas and explain why you would think they are bad/don't fit. Personally i would love for all of her power (that is extra ap, cdr, and other stats) to be available from the start and then have her passive give her a lot of utility such as move speed, slows, poison spreadening or other things like that. I know there are some pitfalls in a lot of things we as players suggest but some feedback on it would be valuable to better be able suggest new ideas.
RiotRiot Stashu17 votesYeah definitely. I've experimented with a number of more 'interesting' mechanics as rewards for the breakpoints. Ultimately, they all, much like the current stat-y one, created a feeling in the player of "but why do I have to wait?" Basically, when you get a tool that alters the way you approach your core combat pattern, the kit feels incomplete without it. The healing on E is kind of cool and adds some decisions, but none that really change the way you approach combat, except that now you are kind of just stronger.
As a comparison point, consider Syndra. Her ability augments don't really change the way the abilities function. They just sort of add some power (increased damage, increased slow duration, etc.). The one that really stands out to me is the increased cast range on the ultimate. Cast ranges are pretty sacred as far as I've learned. Opponents learn approximately what your threat range is and then play around it, so when that changes things get really whacky. I think it's okay for Syndra since nobody really learns to play around the range of the ultimate, as it only happens once per fight and often within the range of her other abiltites. But when you do this for Noxious Blast or Twin Fang or other abilities that are nearly always up and core parts of a Champion's threat, things start to break down. There are champions who are all-about increasing threat range, like Kog'Maw and Tristana, but that aspect is core to the champion identity, so players learn to play around it.
As a point of contrast, consider Kha'Zix. His W, E, and R change pretty dramatically when they're evolved. It's pretty important here to nail down the differences between Kha'Zix and Cassiopeia. What is it about Kha'Zix's abilities, which dramatically change his threat ranges and counterplay, that doesn't leave the Kha'Zix player feeling like she's missing something when she doesn't have them? Is it something about the evolution system, or the individual abilities themselves? I think it's pretty clear that it's the evolution system, but what about it? I think a lot of it has to do with it being a core part of the champion's identity, that both kha'zix players and opponents know going into a game that that's his thing. But it doesn't end there. I think the choice there and the reliability is really important. Kha'Zix (and Victor also) can choose to get their preferred upgrade about as early as they can want it. The augmentation of abilities is much more in the hand of the players in these cases (and even to Syndra) and so it doesn't feel like the game is witholding a core ability for them, but rather they get to upgrade their champion how/when they want to. That's the prevailing theory anyway.
So, the question is, what sorts of things make sense to come over game time in ways which you can't control super well? One answer is 'just make it an evolution system like Kha'Zix/Victor,' but I think that design space is starting to get a bit crowded and it's really important that we preserve what makes those champions feel unique. Stats sort of work, but they create a similar feeling of the game playing keep-away with your power. Somehow the Twin Fang augment works, as it's power in a way which adds some softer decisions and doen't really change Cassiopeia's combat pattern. So, if we're going to swap out the stats for more interesting things that feel exciting to get rather than necessary, it would have to fit along these lines.
Sorry for the rant, hope that helps!
Scampy17 votesThis all assumes Cass has an evolve passive though. You have yet to convince us why she needs this type of passive instead of something more fitting to her theme. Why is this the best choice for a Cass passive, above all other options?
Abyssphere15 votesYeah definitely. I've experimented with a number of more 'interesting' mechanics as rewards for the breakpoints. Ultimately, they all, much like the current stat-y one, created a feeling in the player of "but why do I have to wait?" Basically, when you get a tool that alters the way you approach your core combat pattern, the kit feels incomplete without it. The healing on E is kind of cool and adds some decisions, but none that really change the way you approach combat, except that now you are kind of just stronger.
As a comparison point, consider Syndra. Her ability augments don't really change the way the abilities function. They just sort of add some power (increased damage, increased slow duration, etc.). The one that really stands out to me is the increased cast range on the ultimate. Cast ranges are pretty sacred as far as I've learned. Opponents learn approximately what your threat range is and then play around it, so when that changes things get really whacky. I think it's okay for Syndra since nobody really learns to play around the range of the ultimate, as it only happens once per fight and often within the range of her other abiltites. But when you do this for Noxious Blast or Twin Fang or other abilities that are nearly always up and core parts of a Champion's threat, things start to break down. There are champions who are all-about increasing threat range, like Kog'Maw and Tristana, but that aspect is core to the champion identity, so players learn to play around it.
As a point of contrast, consider Kha'Zix. His W, E, and R change pretty dramatically when they're evolved. It's pretty important here to nail down the differences between Kha'Zix and Cassiopeia. What is it about Kha'Zix's abilities, which dramatically change his threat ranges and counterplay, that doesn't leave the Kha'Zix player feeling like she's missing something when she doesn't have them? Is it something about the evolution system, or the individual abilities themselves? I think it's pretty clear that it's the evolution system, but what about it? I think a lot of it has to do with it being a core part of the champion's identity, that both kha'zix players and opponents know going into a game that that's his thing. But it doesn't end there. I think the choice there and the reliability is really important. Kha'Zix (and Victor also) can choose to get their preferred upgrade about as early as they can want it. The augmentation of abilities is much more in the hand of the players in these cases (and even to Syndra) and so it doesn't feel like the game is witholding a core ability for them, but rather they get to upgrade their champion how/when they want to. That's the prevailing theory anyway.
So, the question is, what sorts of things make sense to come over game time in ways which you can't control super well? One answer is 'just make it an evolution system like Kha'Zix/Victor,' but I think that design space is starting to get a bit crowded and it's really important that we preserve what makes those champions feel unique. Stats sort of work, but they create a similar feeling of the game playing keep-away with your power. Somehow the Twin Fang augment works, as it's power in a way which adds some softer decisions and doen't really change Cassiopeia's combat pattern. So, if we're going to swap out the stats for more interesting things that feel exciting to get rather than necessary, it would have to fit along these lines.
Sorry for the rant, hope that helps!
I'm not the most anti-rework person on the boards but with you pointing out how no matter what you try to add as bonuses on the passive it feels unrewarding and frustrating, I'm really left wondering why you actually want the passive? :/ It doesn't sound like you like it yourself at this stage.
I don't feel like random utility stuff like the Twin Fang spell vamp would make it feel like anything was locked away. It'd remind me of the Syndra-esque passives you spoke about, though you're right there'd be less control. But I'm pretty sure as long as her damage was made independent from her passive it would suddenly start to feel fun. I enjoy getting the first break because I have a fun addition to Twin Fang, and I think you should have a bit of faith in similar gains at other breaks (or even at the first one in addition to spell vamp) being fun too. The problem right now is that Cass feels like she needs to desperately try to get her passive to allow her to do damage and it makes a depressing game, but a passive that unlocks cool utility that helps her but isn't essential would remove a lot of pressure from her and make her fun again. The basic problem is that right now when she hits a passive threshold you're like "phew, one more step down", whereas in a scenario where all the passive thresholds give utility bonuses that are unrelated to her passive, passing thresholds would be more like "yay new powers".
I think until Cass's damage is separated from her passive there'll never be an iteration of it that people like. I've liked your attempts at fixing her, for example the poison amp on E is really inspired and cool, and I'm sure any new passive bonuses will be really cool too. But I think this passive has failed as a way to gate her damage, so ideally her ratios should be buffed again (I still massively support taking advantage of scaling ratios...) until a more effective (but not un-fun) way to make her damage more lategame-oriented appears.
Tendrian16 votesSorry for the rant, hope that helps!
It doesn't, since it still clings to the idea that there is some kind of evolution of power present on Cassiopeia, which means you are still not taking her in the right direction.
Dominick Destine5 votesSorry for the rant, hope that helps!
It doesn't, since it still clings to the idea that there is some kind of evolution of power present on Cassiopeia, which means you are still not taking her in the right direction.
This.
That long post was just a bunch of waffling.... trying to convince us that the atrocious direction she's been taken is somehow justified (One of the lowest win rates of all champions across all brackets/almost universally despised by Cass mains = Terrible rework)
Kowe The Ewok16 votesI've heard - stated by another Riot employee - that Syndra's passive was a mistake to begin with since it feels like she is denied a part of her kit. It however is considered fine since her abilities are powerful on their own.
It's even easy to explain why it feels like that!
Damage is a result of "Base Damage +Scaling". Scaling is APMultiplier. So we have: "Base Damage +APMultiplier"
So by lowering base damage and increasing the Multiplier an ability can be kept weak early, but strong lategame.
What your passive does is adding a Multiplier to the AP. "Base damage +APMultiplierMultiplier"
So what does this mean? It means that 0 gameplay is added. Without the multiplier gained through stacks the the power of the initial multiplier is extremely low. That's everythign that is gained through this concept.
It's a passive completely designed to hold back your champion. This is the most unrewarding design one could ever think off!
Oleandervine14 votesI've heard - stated by another Riot emplyoee - that Snydra passive was a mistake to begin with since it feels like she is denied a part of her. It however is considered fine since her abilities are powerful on their own.
I wanted to say that despite Syndra's passive gating her abilities a little, it feels absolutely 100% in character with her as it pertains to her lore and satisfies the player upon unlocking her full power. The same cannot be said about Cassiopeia and her current rework, however. There is a solid disconnect between kit design and characterization.
5G8Nri0B545 votesI share this sentiment.
-shitty passive in terms of gameplay
-it fits her
Unlike Syndra. Cassiopeia's doesn't even fit her.
Tortferngatr3 votesIt's an "embracing the curse" passive, and it ties into her Medusa inspirations (and lore.)
I just think its execution is terrible, stacking it feels nothing like embracing a curse, and its benefits are mostly low-visibility and feel nothing like embracing a curse.
5G8Nri0B546 votesWell it certainly does feel like a CURSE I'll give him that.
Except then you think about why the heck is this a Cassiopeia only thing and not...literally every other champion afflicted by something that gives them power like WW.
Why does Cassiopeia have this when such a theme is already so worn out by Kha'zix, etc.
In the end, it's a bit of a cop-out. If he wanted to create ANOTHER evolving champion, a poisonous champion probably should have been the last thing in the list to do it on.
Serpents Embrace10 votesWhy are you so hung up on considering Kha'Zix and evolution? You claim here, in this self-professed rant, that the design space there is crowded. What is the decision making process of putting Cassiopeia in it, then? When she was fairly unique in what she did and how she did it before you got your grubby hands all over her?
P.S. You keep using the word "interesting" but haven't proved you actually know what it means.
Oleandervine11 votesYeah definitely. I've experimented with a number of more 'interesting' mechanics as rewards for the breakpoints. Ultimately, they all, much like the current stat-y one, created a feeling in the player of "but why do I have to wait?" Basically, when you get a tool that alters the way you approach your core combat pattern, the kit feels incomplete without it. The healing on E is kind of cool and adds some decisions, but none that really change the way you approach combat, except that now you are kind of just stronger.
As a comparison point, consider Syndra. Her ability augments don't really change the way the abilities function. They just sort of add some power (increased damage, increased slow duration, etc.). The one that really stands out to me is the increased cast range on the ultimate. Cast ranges are pretty sacred as far as I've learned. Opponents learn approximately what your threat range is and then play around it, so when that changes things get really whacky. I think it's okay for Syndra since nobody really learns to play around the range of the ultimate, as it only happens once per fight and often within the range of her other abiltites. But when you do this for Noxious Blast or Twin Fang or other abilities that are nearly always up and core parts of a Champion's threat, things start to break down. There are champions who are all-about increasing threat range, like Kog'Maw and Tristana, but that aspect is core to the champion identity, so players learn to play around it.
As a point of contrast, consider Kha'Zix. His W, E, and R change pretty dramatically when they're evolved. It's pretty important here to nail down the differences between Kha'Zix and Cassiopeia. What is it about Kha'Zix's abilities, which dramatically change his threat ranges and counterplay, that doesn't leave the Kha'Zix player feeling like she's missing something when she doesn't have them? Is it something about the evolution system, or the individual abilities themselves? I think it's pretty clear that it's the evolution system, but what about it? I think a lot of it has to do with it being a core part of the champion's identity, that both kha'zix players and opponents know going into a game that that's his thing. But it doesn't end there. I think the choice there and the reliability is really important. Kha'Zix (and Victor also) can choose to get their preferred upgrade about as early as they can want it. The augmentation of abilities is much more in the hand of the players in these cases (and even to Syndra) and so it doesn't feel like the game is witholding a core ability for them, but rather they get to upgrade their champion how/when they want to. That's the prevailing theory anyway.
So, the question is, what sorts of things make sense to come over game time in ways which you can't control super well? One answer is 'just make it an evolution system like Kha'Zix/Victor,' but I think that design space is starting to get a bit crowded and it's really important that we preserve what makes those champions feel unique. Stats sort of work, but they create a similar feeling of the game playing keep-away with your power. Somehow the Twin Fang augment works, as it's power in a way which adds some softer decisions and doen't really change Cassiopeia's combat pattern. So, if we're going to swap out the stats for more interesting things that feel exciting to get rather than necessary, it would have to fit along these lines.
Sorry for the rant, hope that helps!
Stashu, why does Cassiopeia need to feel like she's randomly gaining power uncontrollably? From a lore standpoint, she betrayed Sivir, got bit by a snake trap, and ended up being transformed into a gorgon. Unless she's going Akira on us, she should be at the peak of her potential. Cassiopeia first and foremost is a spy. Not the kind like her sister, mind you, but a more out in the open spy. She seduces, she deals in secrets, and returns those secrets to her country for the glory of her house. Her new VO is nothing but her talking about how secrets are worth more than gold. So unless she eats secrets like magical wheaties, it makes no sense to have her be focused on being a hyper carry AP mage who ramps up power. She operates from the back lines, spreading venom, lies, poison, and deceit. Therefore, her focus should be her poisons and not her E. Her passive should not be this power gaining stack system, as it does not fit with her characterization at all. First off, drop Aspect and give her a new, more fitting passive. Maybe something simple like a poison amp aura that increases the damage of her poison the closer she is to the foes. If not that, have it be a conditional buff regarding her poisons. I don't know, but the possibilities are endless and they all can create a fluid ability that isn't what she has now. Secondly, if you're concerned with her laning, find a way to give her a weakness that doesn't involve completely crippling her kit if she misses a skillshot. Personally, I thought her extreme lack of mobility and short range in her old kit was a comparable weakness, but hey, clearly I don't know how to balance videogames like you do. And finally, as everyone else has said before, change the focus on her kit. E was never a focus and should never be a focus. We like Cassiopeia because she is so far one of the rare few mages who expressly deal in . All your rework and dumping all into E does is make her a conditional burst mage. We want DoT (which stands for Damage Over Time), not burst. Again, DoT, not burst. An E-centered Cassiopeia is burst, because her current "DoT" is nothing more than a set up for burst. So lose this focus and give the power back to her DoT. DoT has it's counters, on account of it not killing immediately and giving more time to react via potions or life steal, so if you figure out how to balance DoTs and reinfuse her kit with it as a focus, you will have earned our favor.
Circuit Bear1 votesIs there any way you can change her first stage from a heal to a range buff to her e? I think a lot of us would feel better with this. It would give her ACTUAL survivability with the high dps style of the current play style that actually allows her to play safe. Or that makes anyone poisoned by her deal like 25% less damage to her.
Fluppets3 votesStashu specifically mentioned range buffs, that's not going to happen.
5G8Nri0B5411 votesIt still doesnt address 2 major sore points with the rework tho.
-she has no Ao E like she used to, and more inportantly
-she still revolve solely around her E...
Even if u dont max it first any more, her Q and W are both completely useless without her E.
Which wouldnt be a problem if her E wasnt such an unsatisfying ability. Her Q and W are skillshots, ones delayed even. They shouldnt need a short ranged POINT N CLICK ability to be any good.
Serpents Embrace26 votesSo please give them a chance and let me know what you think!
We have. You ignored it.
Agent Jhin7 votesQuite simply, you're right. I've spoke quite a bit to this, bottom line being her curve is wayyyy too steep.
4.21 changes do a number of things to address this.
- Her passive stacks more quickly and reliably
- Her Q ms and E ap start higher than before and no longer scale with rank
- The Twin Fang debuff straight up adds a lot of power to her at all stages of the game
This should go a long ways towards solving the problem you're addressing here. I also think it should ease a lot of the other concerns surrounding the changes, but we'll definitely see.
So please give them a chance and let me know what you think!
I don't know what makes you think her passive stacks more "quickly and reliably" because I just tested it on PBE and it's slow like hell.. If she dies like 2-3 times in early game (which is always possible because she's weak like shit against assassins) she will not be able to catch up her passive because u DONT ALLOW HER TO GET STACKS FROM KILLING POISIONED UNITS OR LAND E'S...... oh wait, does she really have a passive??
Cuix6 votes
- Her passive stacks more quickly and reliably
That doesn't make it fit the "poison mage seductress" fantasy any better.
- Her Q ms and E ap start higher than before and no longer scale with rank
Raw power is not the problem, no matter how much you want to pretend that it is. Eventually it may make most people quiet, but just pumping out a strong-yet-uninteresting champion is exactly what the rest of Riot seems to prefer to avoid.
- The Twin Fang debuff straight up adds a lot of power to her at all stages of the game
Her E is still the least satisfying part of her kit, and has been repeatedly mentioned as such. For some reason, you want a subtle manipulator to play like a short-range spam-cast brawler.
This should go a long ways towards solving the problem you're addressing here.
Yeah, it's easy to address basic irrelevant "but she's not strong" concerns. Tossing on buffs is as basic as it gets. Now deal with the real problems.
So please give them a chance and let me know what you think!
Why should we? It's not like you're actually doing anything with the feedback. So far it's just been number buffs and more power for her E.
Essorance7 votesQuite simply, you're right. I've spoke quite a bit to this, bottom line being her curve is wayyyy too steep.
4.21 changes do a number of things to address this.
- Her passive stacks more quickly and reliably
- Her Q ms and E ap start higher than before and no longer scale with rank
- The Twin Fang debuff straight up adds a lot of power to her at all stages of the game
This should go a long ways towards solving the problem you're addressing here. I also think it should ease a lot of the other concerns surrounding the changes, but we'll definitely see.
So please give them a chance and let me know what you think!
Resign please.
Hawkefire20 votesYou want to know what the right direction is Stashu?
Delete the new passive.
Revert the rework.
Place the QoL changes onto her old kit.
Boom.
FIXED.
2pudge1cup19 votesShe needs the idiotic rework reverted.
U4fyn2vZzW14 votesI've already said this so many times it feels like i'm writing a book so i will repeat it yet again.
Cassiopeia will NEVER, i repeat NEVER be a lategame AP hypercarry with her current kit. It doesn't matter how many times you tweet it's numbers it's never going to work. Why? Well because for one.
Her kit makes it extremely hard to swap targets in teamfights, since the majority of her damage right now comes from her E and that requires poison for effective use it's a fucking struggle to continuously poison and then E people down while other champs like Ryze (Who is an AP Hypercarry) just need to tap dance on their keyboard to melt teamfights.
She's suppose to be a hypercarry yet she's completely vulnerable to cc (most hypercarry's like Ryze or Fiora are very difficult to cc down because they are either naturally tanky (Ryze) or can get untargetable (Fiora).
In League Of Burst: Dawn Of The Gap-Closers a squishy and immobile AP carry who relies on one ability for 80% of her damage is not going to be much help.
I can go on forever, RiotScruffy and Stashu just revert the rework please.
Khristophoros6 votesI've already said this so many times it feels like i'm writing a book so i will repeat it yet again.
Cassiopeia will NEVER, i repeat
NEVERbe a lategame AP hypercarry with her current kit. It doesn't matter how many times you tweet it's numbers it's never going to work. Why? Well because for one.Her kit makes it extremely hard to swap targets in teamfights, since the majority of her damage right now comes from her E and that requires poison for effective use it's a fucking struggle to continuously poison and then E people down while other champs like Ryze (Who is an AP Hypercarry) just need to tap dance on their keyboard to melt teamfights.
She's suppose to be a hypercarry yet she's completely vulnerable to cc (most hypercarry's like Ryze or Fiora are very difficult to cc down because they are either naturally tanky (Ryze) or can get untargetable (Fiora).
In League Of Burst: Dawn Of The Gap-Closers a squishy and immobile AP carry who relies on one ability for 80% of her damage is not going to be much help.
I can go on forever, RiotScruffy and Stashu just revert the rework please.
I'm inclined to agree with this. I played Cass on and off since her release and while she was always called a hypercarry it just didn't work out that way in practice. Her DPS late game was always crazy but applying it was difficult due to how her mechanics inherently are. So she'd end up doing a lot of kiting and depending on poisons in teamfights, sometimes getting to unload a bunch of twin fangs when the opportunity arose.
What kept her viable all that time was her solid laning in the form of morg-like wave clear + high threat to her lane opponent, and the fact that she'd come into midgame strong and her kit is naturally good in skirmishes.
Agent Jhin14 votesit's okay, it's okay, they said cassio's poke was too op so they decided to make her a public glory hole now!
Surely, these champ's pokes aren't op at all!
Lux Xerath Karthus Ziggs Orianna Brand
Oh wait, are Cassiopeia players still clicking Q and E ten times each to just kill one person? Wait! Ziggs can do it with 4 clicks and kill more than one!
and Riot please don't nerf Cassiopeia because her ult is obviously more op than Annie's ult!
Cindikle11 votesI just don't understand why they changed her to begin with.
She had two problems before
I've never heard anyone ask for the type of changes she is getting. I've never heard anyone say her power curve was in a bad spot.
She's weak to mobility. A growing problem on many champions. She's highly rewarded for being aggressive early game. She's known to all in at level 2 just because she landed a Q. Right now and future planning makes her useless without landing poison or having at least 200 stacks. ADC's don't even get it this bad. And they're meant to be the lategame powerhouses with the weak early games.
Basically this rework gives her some HP when she uses E and 25% CDR. But the cost is her early game power. And this trade off takes time to gain back.
Mathbalnase8 votes25% CDR. But the cost is her early game power. And this trade off takes time to gain back.
In-kit CDR is not a 'gain' when it is accompanied by increased base CDs.
The Rager4 votesChange the meta so you can play a champion? Many champs are situational or don't fit the current meta. Either become very knowledgeable with them or pick them when the enemy team comp won't punish you for it, i.e. facing another late-game champ or team-comp.
Khristophoros15 votesChange the meta so you can play a champion? Many champs are situational or don't fit the current meta. Either become very knowledgeable with them or pick them when the enemy team comp won't punish you for it, i.e. facing another late-game champ or team-comp.
That was not a serious suggestion. I was just trying to illustrate how stupid the concept is. Even late game comps don't go for games that are terribly longer than normal. LoL games range from 20 minutes to 60 minutes but typically you'd expect 30-40. Anything past 60 is extremely abnormal and nobody runs team comps that purposefully stall that long.