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[POLL] Should Thornmail be reworked to deal true damage?

darkdill··109 votes·4,545 views

#Before you immediately say "NO", you should expect that Riot would adjust numbers to compensate.

Thornmail runs into a nasty problem: Magic Resist hard-counters it, as well as Phantom Dancer and Death's Dance. If the enemy gets a item 3139 or item 3156 or even item 3111 , its thorns damage evaporates and deals little-to-no damage. The thing that makes it worse is that to get a lot of armor to make it deal worthwhile damage, you simply cannot get Magic Penetration, meaning MR has full effectiveness against you (or at least 90% effectiveness).

I recently had a Leona match where I had 500+ armor, but the Thornmail I had didn't even scratch the enemy because they all had at least some MR. It was such a kick in the nuts to get that much armor only for the Thornmail to do literally nothing.

And it sucks even more because Thornmail is a counter item itself, so why is it countered? It's supposed to punish enemy teams for not making good team compositions.

This leads me to the point of this topic and its poll: Should Thornmail deal true damage with its procs instead of magic?

This would greatly improve Thornmail's worth, in that your opponent would not be able to counter it with one of their damage items. Sure, the numbers would have to be reduced a bunch, but at least it would become consistent and meaningful rather than super-easy to gimp.

I'm certain a lot of you are going to vote "NO", but at least give it a little thought.

110 Comments

Wolfram Oxford51 votes

It needs to apply grievous wounds. Carries have way too much lifesteal to heal up all of the damage they receive.

Mountain Warden15 votes

[{quoted}](name=Wolfram Oxford,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1iEYEIsz,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-06-02T19:27:04.211+0000)

It needs to apply grievous wounds. Carries have way too much lifesteal to heal up all of the damage they receive.

Radical idea here... What if instead of reflecting a portion of AA damage, it doesn't reflect damage at all. But instead it shuts down lifesteal so that ADCs can't use you as a health battery? It's probably a stupid idea but this comment just got me thinking.

Wolfram Oxford12 votes

Thornmail, its in the name. I know its supposed to punish carries for attacking you, but still it should remain as an item that returns damage.

Melledoneus4 votes

Or it could apply Grievous Wounds and a Bleed passive. Because thorns.

Meritas3 votes

Because a whole gameplay concept would be negated by 1 item.

DeathBurst2 votes

Not really, because not everyone in the team would build thornmail, espcially not the other ADC or the Mid.

TotalJerk2 votes

There are a billion items that do this already. Zhonya's, QSS, Voidstaff/Last Whisper, Ohmwrecker, Guardian Angel. Those items can maintain a healthy state despite being designed to counter a gameplay concept, as a matter of fact some of them have become vital to game balance.

darkdill3 votes

Only if said GW is tied to some sort of active, or if the duration is super short, or if it only applies GW to low-health enemies like item 3165 .

The Whamboozler6 votes

^ This. It's purpose is to counter lifesteal and sustain. It should DO that.

It doesn't matter what kind of damage it does, so long as it gimps healing.

Xienwolf2 votes

Grievous, or completely disable Lifesteal for damage against the Thornmail wearer. (this would leave non-Lifesteal healing fully in place, so less of an impact against Illaoi, Irelia and a few others)

KONO RUBICK DA21 votes

remember when they said spellvamp needed so much to work? same for thornmail, needs a lot of armor, needs magic pene. needs gravious wounds.

make it true damage

Wild Geese18 votes

Neither, It should return Physical damage. I think the idea of the item should be, it's for tanks reflecting damage on non-tanks. So a Jinx who usually doesn't have an armor damage will get hurt. But a Garen won't mind so much.

It Hertz When IP3 votes

This. ADCs don't have any real access to armor, and ADCs are who the item was intended to counter.

MunchCrunchLunch6 votes

lmao. are you kidding? base armor is enough to negate 40-50% of that. meaningless. I'd rather keep the magic damage thank you.

Wild Geese2 votes

{quoted}

lmao. are you kidding? base armor is enough to negate 40-50% of that. meaningless. I'd rather keep the magic damage thank you.

Then perhaps the ratio of damage return also goes up, like double it.

Blue Moon Wolf9 votes

I had an idea to change it like they did with item 3035 (make it into a middle class item for 1300 at reduced effectiveness) and give it 2 items that it can build into. One that gives more armor and/or a stronger version of the passive, the other has an active that gives a shield and makes returned physical damage into true damage for a few seconds, but has Thornmails current armor and around the same passive effectiveness.

Essentially one would be good against burst damage AD ( like Jhin or Caitlyn ) and the other would be good for rapid fire (like KogMaw or Ashe ).

UberChayChay2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Blue Moon Wolf,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1iEYEIsz,comment-id=0012,timestamp=2016-06-03T01:58:15.609+0000)

I had an idea to change it like they did with item 3035 (make it into a middle class item for 1300 at reduced effectiveness) and give it 2 items that it can build into. One that gives more armor and/or a stronger version of the passive, the other has an active that gives a shield and makes returned physical damage into true damage for a few seconds, but has Thornmails current armor and around the same passive effectiveness.

Essentially one would be good against burst damage AD ( like Jhin or Caitlyn ) and the other would be good for rapid fire (like KogMaw or Ashe ).

{quoted}

if you really care, you can make it apply grievous wounds.

because "moar lifesteal" should not counter an anti-lifesteal item.

I agree with these. Especially the "Moar lifesteal" part.

LordGeovanni3 votes

i think that it either needs a hp component to with 200 -300 hp or build into an item with an hp component if it costs 3000 i dont care if it costs 4000 i dont care just dont nerf the stats for it.

Blue Moon Wolf3 votes

That could work, as it would ecentualy be the armor equivalent of item 3211 at that point, which builds into the arguably best AP counter on the market item 3102. Just make it build with item 1029 and item 1028 (maybe item 3801 if the price would be too low) and have it upgrade into the other two items with the HP added on and that could work out very nicely.

LordGeovanni3 votes

now with a 40 second cooldown that resets when ever you take damage you would think with the gutting of the stats and faster season riot would remove the in combat penalty and cut the cd for it in half

Blue Moon Wolf2 votes

That would be really helpful and make me want to build it more often, but I'm guessing Riot thinks the 70 MR is worth the gold on it's own, kind of like how it seems they think that the 100 Armor on item 3075 makes it worth buying now. Hopefuly they'll change their tune, you just can't tell what Riot's planning anymore :L

LordGeovanni2 votes

wow when did this get 70 mr health didnt have to take that hit though but that sounds better than spirit visage now which ive been avoiding since they cut the mr even on healing tanks that need it like voli bear and mundo

TwinkiePro4 votes

I would say yes and no. I think the base damage should be guaranteed, that 15 that it starts with, with the rest, which scales off of bonus armor, dealing magic damage. If that's not enough, have the base scale with level, much like abyssal sceptar.

Gnart Even Close4 votes

I think it needs to block lifesteal (maybe not Grievous wounds, something that applies only to lifesteal) and ignore a % of MR so that it will deal relevant damage to those who build MR but not crippling damage to tanks. tanks should be able to resist the damage if they are not doing massive amounts of basic attack damage. i.e. if I build a Banshee's and Visage I should not be getting annihilated by Thornmail. ADCs need to not be able to heal through the damage with lifesteal; it should pose a significant threat to keep using basic attacks on a target with Thornmail

Quepha3 votes

It's a step in the right direction because it makes Thornmail better against tanks and worse against marksmen, but it should go farther by further reducing the reflect damage while making it apply to all physical damage instead of merely auto attacks.

Tanks should not have an item that sets their counter back 2 or more item slots.

darkdill6 votes

Not really for the "against tanks" part, as marksmen attack much faster and thus proc the thorns more often.

Quepha5 votes

{quoted}

Not really for the "against tanks" part, as marksmen attack much faster and thus proc the thorns more often.

Thornmail's reflect is based on pre-mitigation damage taken from basic attacks and their on-hit effects. After this change the item would be balanced around a smaller percentage of damage return because it is all true damage. That means it will be balanced around dealing more damage to high MR targets (usually tanks) and less damage to low MR targets (usually marksmen)

Attack speed and total damage dealt from basic attacks are the same before and after the change so it provides nothing useful to this conversation.

Sightless662 votes

marksmen attack much faster and thus proc the thorns more often.

Yeah, but that is already true right now. Your proposal doesn't modify that. Your change would make that damage more effective against any targets that build MR. The champions most likely to purchase MR are tanks, so they're the ones you're getting the biggest average damage increase on by shifting the item to true damage. This would be real hell for any tanky attack speed champion, annoying for any tanks that just autoattack normally for damage (as most tanks do), and it wouldn't change too much for AD carries.

If you want to make it something more effective against AD carries, go for physical damage. No armor items that really fit into an ADC build, and everyone else is perfectly comfortable building armor.

LordGeovanni2 votes

except tanks are supposed to take damage and deal it back over time that is the job description. rather than straight up burst but when carries get hit with 200 damage spells they cry burst because they dont realise they went full glass cannon build with no health or not much defenses even though with no items adcs have about 20 hp diffrence from most tanks at level 1 and its about 200 hp at level 18 but if you look at their kits most adcs will have over 500 damage difference with spells and passives put together in the adcs favor

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

except tanks are supposed to take damage and deal it back over time that is the job description.

Yes, and the tanking damage pattern is most effective against burst damage because burst champions depend heavily on killing a target during their combo. Burst mages and Assassins are weak against tanks who eat their combos and keep kicking while sustained damage champions will take tanks down eventually given enough time. Sustained damage champions are the only types of champions who can provide the right type of damage to take out a tank in any amount of time and it's bad for balance for a tank to be able to counter the only path towards their death.

LordGeovanni2 votes

if the champion is melee and have to put them selves in some sort of danger yes but if the champion can stand in the back of a team when tanks get to that champion they should go down with a considerable fight rather than crit healing what ever damage a tank does when they attack them

Quepha2 votes

{quoted}

if the champion is melee and have to put them selves in some sort of danger yes but if the champion can stand in the back of a team when tanks get to that champion they should go down with a considerable fight rather than crit healing what ever damage a tank does when they attack them

Last I checked Thornmail works perfectly fine from long range. If this thread was about Sunfire then you'd have a point but Sunfire's already pretty strong.

LordGeovanni3 votes

item 3072 and or item 3139 thornmails countered and useless any life steal item counters it but these 2 leave it uselsess or any combination of 2 lifesteal items

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

item 3072 and or item 3139 thornmails countered and useless any life steal item counters it but these 2 leave it uselsess or any combination of 2 lifesteal items

Two items to counter one means the Tank comes out waaay ahead.

Astôlfo2 votes

Do you not know what "and/or" means? lmao

Mig893 votes

bump. I want this to be a thing.

5050BS3 votes

I have found that its damage is to low with the LS ADC can get with the new items and masteries.

ADC commonly run with 50-70% LS and can get 100%

Thornmail lowers this to 35-55% so it does not really do its job.

Another option would be to add Grievous wounds to it.

Mirkhail2 votes

I have never see and adc with so much lifesteal, i usually see from 10 to 50. Also bt give 20 ls + botk give 10 + mercurial 10, if we throw the masteries give more 20 ls when you are really low.

Irelia Bot2 votes

Or... Just make it so that having thornmail makes you unable to get life stealed off of.

LatetotheRace2 votes

I feel like it could be a mixture of physical, magical, and true damage. Possibly 35% phy, 35% magic, and 30% true damage. This way it isn't incredibly oppressive, and it could proc item 3123 among other items/abilities.

BeatzBoyFTW2 votes

Vayne : Riot, wtf is this Thornmail true damage bullshit?!! Rammus : Oh, YOU'RE complaining??

Xenos111112 votes

My main problem is that once AD carries have item 3036 it doesn't even matter if you have 500 armor, they still rip through you in a few seconds. Also the prevalence of AD casters (namely Lucian) make its AA-reflection worthless since he can kill you with his Q and ult.

item 3156 is also a big counter, I agree with you there.

HolyDelRey2 votes

Yes, it's passive is basically useless right now and the armor is easily penetrated nowadays considering the new standard AD build.

ltmetal2 votes

Thornmail needs to be changed until there is meaningful counterplay for the buyer and the enemy. True damage will change it to counterbuild with health instead of magic resist, but it's a step in the right direction.

Linna Excel2 votes

If it were to deal true damage, that would cause riot to ruin it as its damage would have to be nerfed hard. It doesn't exist to completely prevent an ADC from killing you, rather it exists to slow an ADC down. Turning it to true damage would also means ADCs would have no counterplay against it, so the numbers would have to be adjusted to the point the damage would always be a joke.

ADCs are supposed to be the counter to tanks and I don't want tanks to be in the game without a counter. Another point is what is the ADC supposed to do to get back into the game when he is behind but the tank who bought thornmail is ahead? Too many times, it is only the ADC focusing on the tank and he needs damage, MR, and life steal to survive against a fed tank when his team refuses to peel for him.

In terms of timeliness this suggestion would also be a disaster because overall, it is a terrible meta for ADCs to play in.

So no, this is a terrible idea.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

A) Thornmail is not a counter item. It is, first and foremost, a defensive item. 100 armor is actually much better at reducing the damage from physical abilities like Zed's Razor Shuriken than it is at reducing auto attack damage, since abilities generally don't critically strike. Thornmail is the highest armor item in the game, it is designed to prevent you from being assassinated. The passive is just gravy.

B) Thornmail doing magic damage means it synergizes well with Wit's End. It's not Riot's fault that Wit's End is so ridiculously undervalued by the community.

darkdill2 votes

Thornmail gets easily outclassed by Deadman's Plate, Randuin's Omen, or Sunfire Cape in terms of the raw durability it provides you, since 100 armor alone generally isn't as good as 50 armor with 500 HP.

LynXerf2 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1iEYEIsz,comment-id=0017,timestamp=2016-06-03T03:11:47.108+0000)

A) Thornmail is not a counter item. It is, first and foremost, a defensive item. 100 armor is actually much better at reducing the damage from physical abilities like Zed's Razor Shuriken than it is at reducing auto attack damage, since abilities generally don't critically strike. Thornmail is the highest armor item in the game, it is designed to prevent you from being assassinated. The passive is just gravy.

B) Thornmail doing magic damage means it synergizes well with Wit's End. It's not Riot's fault that Wit's End is so ridiculously undervalued by the community.

It's... quite difficult for a tank to get up in an auto attackers face and start smashing them with basic attacks to stack up wits end. If that ever occurs, wit's end becomes irrelevant anyway. Wit's End is more of a duelling item that just doesn't perform particularly well - it is also very lascklustre late game.

Thornmail gives 100 armor but that by itself is nothing WOW. Compare it to frozen heart which allows you to spam your spells, and more often, AND it reduces attack speed which can have a huge gold efficiency in teamfights. Right now Thornmail just underperforms pure and simple unless you are a huge armor stacker.

PixTron1 votes

It would be cool, HOWEVER, it'll just encourage more Tank Bruiser BS. Yi, Rammus, Olaf, Tahm, Garen, Darius, etc. could easily use it to deal quite a bit of damage while just being shot at, and building dmg items.

darkdill2 votes

Not if a lot of the damage was dependent on you getting bonus armor. That's the current mentality of Thornmail's effect, it's just that enemy magic resistance makes the effect rather worthless.

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