Random Veigar buff idea: Steerable W

MrSc0tty··68 votes·2,593 views

I was trying to think of ways to make Veigar stronger while still maintaining Counterplay, and had an idea.

When first starting LoL, I played Veigar because he was damn funny and he felt powerful. Obviously I was not playing him very well, but one of my favorite parts of his kit was using his W to poke in lane-you know, like nobody past level 10 does because anyone can dodge it-but since I was so early level a lot of people would not notice the shadow and sound and they'd get hit. I always envisioned it almost like a Looney Tunes anvil falling from the sky.

Now, in Looney Tunes there's always the recurring gag where they try to step out of the falling anvil (having learned their lesson from last time) and the shadow follows then around until they get hit.

What if, while W were cast, Veigar could re-cast it once to cause it to move in the indicated direction, allowing him to follow people trying to juke and turning a somewhat dull skill (I have to cast when people CANT PHYSICALLY DODGE) into a fun little mini-game (was that a short joke? Maybe) for a champ who's kit is simple enough to accommodate one and not have it be overwhelming.

TL;DR: Allow Veigar to torment his foes by adding an optional re-cast to his W, causing it to move in the direction of the cursor. That would allow the tiny master of evil a response to jukes and mobility while making sure W isn't TOO reliable.

44 Comments

Ulric Greatsword38 votes

I can't stop imagining a Cartoon Veigar skin now. He drops anvils.

rinsujo9 votes

That... would actually be really entertaining. If it moved far enough, you could almost combo it with his new stun to zone someone completely off a minion wave - giving him something to actually do besides huddle under tower and try to last hit.

MrSc0tty5 votes

{quoted}

That... would actually be really entertaining. If it moved far enough, you could almost combo it with his new stun to zone someone completely off a minion wave - giving him something to actually do besides huddle under tower and try to last hit.

I just think Veigar is a champ who really needs some good mindgames added into his kit for the counterplay it currently has. Similar to Vel'koz, you want to chain your skills in such a way that an enemy trying to dodge one winds up trapped by the other. That really fits into his aesthetic as well, Veigar is the type to "out-plan" his opponents and he wants to Get Them Right Where He Wants Them.

MrSc0tty6 votes

{quoted}

That... would actually be really entertaining. If it moved far enough, you could almost combo it with his new stun to zone someone completely off a minion wave - giving him something to actually do besides huddle under tower and try to last hit.

I'd say it should move as fast as Veigar does currently with his boots excluding any special effects (so that Veigar's enemies can't just buy boots to outrun the skill even if Veigar moves it perfectly with them).

Tentacle Love5 votes

I really like the idea of juking a skill with a delay. that's really impressive.

Eppelke2 votes

Slow people in the E area so that they cant walk out of the cage so easy when its about to come up and makes it harder for them to avoid the W.

Conturbatio2 votes

Would make much more sense to his "Final Boss" skin since he drops a tetris piece (and you can move tetris pieces before they reach the ground).

BerserkInferno1 votes

That's actually brilliant. My friends and I were playing and I kept suggesting to one of them [who was playing veigar] that they should try to steer opponents into their damaging spells. This would work perfectly for that purpose.

1st HanarSpectre1 votes

I know Veigar isn't really in a good spot after last patch, but you have to understand that the only reason he's allowed to have a 1:1AP ration 320 base damage aoe nuke is because it's dodgeable.

MrSc0tty4 votes

[{quoted}](name=1st HanarSpectre,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1chvcIlr,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-02-27T21:56:33.754+0000)

I know Veigar isn't really in a good spot after last patch, but you have to understand that the only reason he's allowed to have a 1:1AP ration 320 base damage aoe nuke is because it's dodgeable.

And how would allowing the Veigar player to reposition it once make it undodgeable? It still lands in the same AOE, at the same delay, it just gives both players a chance to react to it landing.

At present it is 100% dodgeable and only lands when the opponent CANNOT move out of the way. That presents no fun for Veigar or his opponent. Making it more reliable is not fun, making it more powerful is not fun, why not make it more versatile instead?

Veigar's kit currently has room for one more interesting mechanic. Most mages have at least one multi-click ability (viktors ult, Heimerdinger turrets and ult, Anivia Q)

1st HanarSpectre1 votes

I'm really stumped as to why you do not consider the ability to move it at a split second "reliable".

MrSc0tty3 votes

[{quoted}](name=1st HanarSpectre,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1chvcIlr,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2015-02-27T22:06:47.280+0000)

I'm really stumped as to why you do not consider the ability to move it at a split second "reliable".

It is, but it's reliability that requires player input rather than simply a delay decrease or AOE increase. Think of it like Anivia being able to activate her Q or Heimerdinger being able to fan his rockets. Only allowing him to do it once means that he can't perfectly follow his opponents movement, only where he thinks they'll end up.

How do you propose Veigar be increased from a sub-40% winrate?

TonyTonyMordecai1 votes

Have his E give bonuses to his other skills if said enemy is caught inside the cage and/or stunned by cage walls. E's delay now has a purpose.

MrSc0tty1 votes

{quoted}

Have his E give bonuses to his other skills if said enemy is caught inside the cage and/or stunned by cage walls. E's delay now has a purpose.

It's a good idea, I just like "toolbox" mages like Viktor with an optional combo better than walking wombocombo mages like Annie and brand whose whole kit tends to just be ineffective if not used all at once.

TonyTonyMordecai1 votes

Yeah, I guess Veigar would drift in that direction if his E did that, but the thing is Veigar is already strong with his other spells. The only problem is that there are so many things that other champions can do, either mobile or immobile, just to dodge his abilities, and now his R is the only reliable way to guarantee damage onto another champion. If they changed the way his W worked, and decreased the fall time, or make it like Kog'Maw's ultimate drop time/speed, or made the range bigger, then it would help with how he now has a skillshot Q, and a delayed E. If his E gave bonuses to stunning a champion or trapping them, then it would make sense for there to be a delay, because the point of getting stuck is supposed to make you feel like you're going to die.

MrSc0tty1 votes

True, but who feels more fair to fight, Annie or Viktor?

both have powerful single-target damage skills, relatively instant AOEs, basic ability AOE ccs, and high burst ults with a sustained damage component.

The difference is, Annie IS the burst combo. She stuns you then rocks you with a jillion damage and you die usually before the stun is off you. Viktor has delays on his cc, his power transfer is a two-parter where he has to auto you, and he will probably need to follow you with his ult since a little less of the damage is upfront. In return, his kit is a powerful toolkit especially when he starts to upgrade it. He can zone with his field, cut his laser at unexpected angles, remote control his ult to clean up fights, juke away with his speed boost from power transfer.

With Veigar's Q becoming a skillshot, and his stun getting a delay, I'd rather see him move more towards Viktor than Annie. Having a powerful reliable burst ultimate is absolutely fine, but when I play Veigar now compared to the other mages I like I find myself wishing I had a little bit more to do with his ability focused playstyle. I'd rather have him rewarded for good planning and smart strategy during a teamfight than have him capable of making more bursty big plays.

TonyTonyMordecai1 votes

Yeah, Viktor style would be nice for Veigar, since they both have no actual escapes, and Viktor has interesting ways of using his abilities in an area as opposed to one person. Veigar kind of needed the reliability of his targeted Q to do harass and farming, but he is more free to move around since he doesn't need an actual target to use his Q.

Phrite1 votes

My issue with your suggestion is that it actually removes some skill from Veigar's kit. He can now mis-cast W and then simply re-aim it to make up for the mistake. I would assume that part of the skill involved in using W is predicting when/where an enemy will be. Your suggestion basically gives him a free do-over for screwing up. While what I have suggested may not wind up being the primary use case it could serve as a crutch for less skilled players to get by.

MrSc0tty6 votes

{quoted}

My issue with your suggestion is that it actually removes some skill from Veigar's kit. He can now mis-cast W and then simply re-aim it to make up for the mistake. I would assume that part of the skill involved in using W is predicting when/where an enemy will be. Your suggestion basically gives him a free do-over for screwing up. While what I have suggested may not wind up being the primary use case it could serve as a crutch for less skilled players to get by.

On the contrary I would argue that it adds some. Veigar's W currently cannot be used in a skilled manner- the AOE is such that an enemy can't be harmed if they juke away from it. It can only be landed if an opponent makes a mistake, no matter how good you are. That means that 99% of Ws thrown out by good Veigar's are just against targets stunned by E-a situation where it can't be dodged.

Phrite1 votes

I don't play Veigar much so forgive me if I'm missing some insights that you might have as a frequent player. I guess I mean don't you land W by predicting where and how an opponent is going to move rather than simply placing it directly over said person? Or are you saying that even that scenario it's still frequently juked?

MrSc0tty1 votes

{quoted}

I don't play Veigar much so forgive me if I'm missing some insights that you might have as a frequent player. I guess I mean don't you land W by predicting where and how an opponent is going to move rather than simply placing it directly over said person? Or are you saying that even that scenario it's still frequently juked?

if W is placed with the edge over someone, they will have time to move out of the opposite edge with Tier 2 boots before it lands.

The Soulforged1 votes

I like the idea of a buff, but this just seems kinda out of theme.

LyraSona1 votes

Forget it. The whole point of the Veigar nerf was to stop his antics. Now you want to literally turn him into a cartoon villain?

NorthernDruid1 votes

Just to make sure people realise, the suggestion would include travel time for the target area (at least I hope it would and that's how I interpret later comments from the OP).

Other than that. This sounds like a pretty fun change really.

Yawnli1 votes

pls riot do it

ZylotheWolfbane1 votes

This would work if you could only move it ONCE. Because this would make predicting your opponent's moves more of an actual skill, and would mean that clever enemies could fake out the opposing Veigar by starting to move out of the way, making him reposition it, then immediately moving it the other way after he repositions it. And Clever-er Veigars could pretend to move over to reposition it, then when the enemy thinks you're repositioning it and moves away, you ACTUALLY reposition it.

MrSc0tty1 votes

{quoted}

This would work if you could only move it ONCE. Because this would make predicting your opponent's moves more of an actual skill, and would mean that clever enemies could fake out the opposing Veigar by starting to move out of the way, making him reposition it, then immediately moving it the other way after he repositions it. And Clever-er Veigars could pretend to move over to reposition it, then when the enemy thinks you're repositioning it and moves away, you ACTUALLY reposition it.

Yeah that was the suggestion. Basically the "shadow" would move towards the cursor at Veigar's current basic MS (does not work with speed boosts/Mobis)

Thresh Outta Fux1 votes

Saw this thread a few times, finally opened it, pleasant surprise.

+1 and bump.

Red Centurio1 votes

I'm going to leave a +1 here. This is a delightful idea if riot is too scared to touch the stun. At least make one of e/w usable in this patch, then fix him after.

Drukyul1 votes

How about Veigar draws a line Viktor-style, with the shadow of the incoming explosion visible to all, which is then followed by the entire line exploding all at once after a short delay. Also make the line about half the length of Viktor's laser, but keep a pretty hefty AOE on it.

Saint Archer1 votes

just because you are bad at veigar doesn't mean he needs a new buff

MrSc0tty4 votes

[{quoted}](name=MONSTER ZER0,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1chvcIlr,comment-id=000f,timestamp=2015-02-28T08:32:00.498+0000)

just because you are bad at veigar doesn't mean he needs a new buff

Everyone must be bad at Veigar then, he only wins 37% of the time across al elos.

TonyTonyMordecai2 votes

I think you won this argument

Saint Archer1 votes

Everyone must be bad at Veigar then, he only wins 37% of the time across al elos.

the only time i lose with veigar is when i get a scrub team that even one shotting half their team can't carry. who knows, that may be a factor, and that the new veigar players don't understand how he's supposed to be played.

Rinky Dinky1 votes

New Veigar players?

The top 3 Veigar players have all said that Veigar is near unplayable due to these recent changes.

Saint Archer1 votes

see, what's funny, is that i win almost every single lane as veigar, even if i'm ganked. the only time i lose is when i have garbage teams.

MrSc0tty1 votes

[{quoted}](name=MONSTER ZER0,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1chvcIlr,comment-id=000f00000001,timestamp=2015-03-01T05:04:23.473+0000)

the only time i lose with veigar is when i get a scrub team that even one shotting half their team can't carry. who knows, that may be a factor, and that the new veigar players don't understand how he's supposed to be played.

Yes, all those new scrub Veigar players are-Oh wait his pick rate has gone down by two thirds as well.

There are less people playing Veigar than ever and they're all inexplicably just incredibly bad at it, so bad that he's winning fewer games than Urgot.

And all the Azir players are bad too, and all the Kassadin players too, they're all just scrubs. Or maybe 5.4 is just a massive train wreck that gutted three champs into un playability.

Dreamloaf1 votes

Instead of simply allowing veigar to reposition his w after he cast it why not change the skill like so. When veigar casts his w, an indicater rapidly moves from veigar to his target location in a straight line, at any point veigar can recast his w dropping it at its current location with a very short delay. This way there is still counter play, skill, and a real chance to use the skill without having to revert the change on the e skill.

MrSc0tty2 votes

{quoted}

Instead of simply allowing veigar to reposition his w after he cast it why not change the skill like so. When veigar casts his w, an indicater rapidly moves from veigar to his target location in a straight line, at any point veigar can recast his w dropping it at its current location with a very short delay. This way there is still counter play, skill, and a real chance to use the skill without having to revert the change on the e skill.

After some thought I considered something like diminishing returns for an enlarged AOE. For instance, if Veigar repositions it, it hits a whole line but deals reduced damage.

TonyTonyMordecai1 votes

That would be cool. Kind of like how Xerath's Q gains range the longer he charges it. But for Veigar, he could throw it faster the farther it is, but maybe deal less damage since it hits more people? Or maybe deal more damage if it's a single person, like Karthus Q, that way it makes sense to have Veigar focus on one target at a time, either when his ult is up or when he takes out one person and then he has to pick and choose who to go for if he stuns multiple people. Actually, having the range gain would be like Zac's E, because he gains range with charge time, but then he can still choose where to leap to.

Poptart Evelynn1 votes

I would like it to also be controllable by the Alt key for those of us who have been here for a long time. We control clones and stuff with alt key still very well.

WhiskerWow1 votes

Darn, you beat me to it! ;( I was thinking the same thing, except instead of recasting it, it was moved like a Vel'koz ult except in all directions. That way, it made you immobile so you'd have to burn their escapes or/and cage them or risk getting jumped on. Good luck with your idea! (:

Squarefighter1 votes

Upvoted for short joke

skyfall6191 votes

i think giving veigars w 2-3 charges would be good. instead of relying on his stun to land a w. he can trap a target in the cage and make a meteor shower within the cage. this still offers counterplay yet makes his w more practical. w dmg lowered due to multiple charges.

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