Does anyone else think Lee Sin's ult CD at level 1 is too short?

darkdill·Mar 18, 2017·59 votes·3,280 views

Picture this: I'm Warwick (or really any other jungler, the results are mostly the same against Lee), I die to a Lee Sin Dragon Rage, and then after respawning I return to jungle to fight him (i.e. he's going after Dragon and I want to stop him). Guess what? He kicks me AGAIN within less than 70-80 seconds of his previous kick. Doesn't that feel... oppressive?

The problem is that if Lee Sin rushes some early CDR (i.e. Warrior Enchantment, Black Cleaver, etc.), he gets his kick back before you return to the area, giving you no opportunity to take advantage of downtime. That is flat-out annoying and snowballs way too hard in Lee's favor.

Also, even if that recharged ult doesn't let Lee WIN a fight, it still means you can't easily take him out because he'll just punt you away and escape. This makes it even harder to try and punish him.

My 2 cents.

51 Comments

DynikusMar 18, 201719 votes

I return to jungle to fight him.

you already got solo killed once, why are you returning to fight him again? Also ww is pretty good into lee sin

darkdillMar 18, 20173 votes

Picture that I return to fight him WITH TEAMMATES. Or perhaps he's wounded, when Warwick should have an advantage.

DynikusMar 18, 20172 votes

then him having his ult shouldn't be a big deal if it's 2v1.

Touch My BoxMar 18, 201715 votes

{quoted}

then him having his ult shouldn't be a big deal if it's 2v1.

Right cause it is only single targ- Right cause it doesn't provide AoE dama- Right cause it can't be used to buy time to esca- Right cause it doesn't increase in damage output with more targe-

I totally can't see Lee Sins ultimate useful in a 2v1 situation.

darkdillMar 18, 20171 votes

It's still a painintheass.

Touch My BoxMar 18, 201714 votes

{quoted}

you already got solo killed once, why are you returning to fight him again? Also ww is pretty good into lee sin

Maybe he just wants to go to the other side of his jungle?

darkdillMar 18, 20174 votes

This. Or perhaps Lee is trying to dragon and we want to stop him.

EndlessCycleMar 18, 20177 votes

That is prohibited gameplay when against a Lee sin sorry.

Gregor GysiMar 18, 20171 votes

Tbh WW can probably fight Lee Sin even when 1 kill behind despite Lee's ultimate being up and WW's down.

darkdillMar 18, 20173 votes

Even if WW can win that fight, Lee will use Dragon Rage to end the fight by letting him GTFO.

Ulquiorra995Mar 18, 20171 votes

The thing is, you don't fight Lee if you can win. That's what happens when you give someone 3 ways to escape or engage a fight; you fight only when that someone has an advantage and thus wants to commit to it.

Irelia BotMar 19, 20171 votes

{quoted}

you already got solo killed once, why are you returning to fight him again? Also ww is pretty good into lee sin

If you run into him you likely don't have much of a say in running away.

PiVoRxMar 19, 20171 votes

Every game against Lee Sin is about to outmaneuver him.. in your own jungle.

Ulquiorra995Mar 18, 201710 votes

Making Lee's ultimate have a higher cool down would give him a window of weakness and introduce counterplay to him. Unfortunately, Riot doesn't like words "Lee" and "weakness", "tradeoff" or "counterplay" being mentioned in the same sentence so we aren't having it.

FefnilMar 19, 20173 votes

Mmh... "Every jungler champion has weaknesses, tradeoffs and counterplays so that Lee can exploit them and win"

Ariel the CruelMar 18, 20178 votes

giving you no opportunity to take advantage of a cooldown.

It's Lee Sin. Working as intended.

darkdillMar 18, 20171 votes

Then that intent is flawed and/or oppressive.

Ariel the CruelMar 18, 20174 votes

Don't worry. Lee sin is balanced because most players from his high play-rate aren't very good at him / the game. As long as his win-rate across all elos and experience levels (combined) isn't super high, he isn't a problem. Gotta love Bronze 12!

This totally isn't a double standard since all other champions are balanced around primarily (almost exclusively in some cases Shen ) high elo and experience levels. (>_>)

Photos of GhostsMar 18, 20171 votes

Lee is actually a massive advantage for a bad players, so many oops buttons

Ariel the CruelMar 18, 20171 votes

Lee is actually a massive advantage for a average players, so many oops buttons

Bad players are too bust trying to flash-E-ult-Q-Q into enemy nexus. Lee's output is incredibly ridiculous. But there is a notable skill floor too him. Which is why his low elo / experience players are able to trash his win rates to such a degree. Allowing Riot to cite his overall win-rate as being sub-par.

So in reality, bad players are a massive advantage for Lee Sin. Not the other way around.

BisaknospMar 18, 20177 votes

should be 110/90/70 most lee's rush black cleaver after warriors its up all the time so annoying

darkdillMar 18, 20171 votes

This.

ImakandiTheLordMar 18, 20171 votes

So you want R to be nerfed again.. Only because you cannot outplay a Lee? The idea of CDR is too have little quick skirmishes where you unload all your spells for a good trade or even a kill. Yes, if you just go AA him you will get punished . You are completely talking nonsense for two different kind of junglers. Lee has outplay potential , WW not so much and that's why he is cheaper in IP, easier to play /imagine playing ww for the first time - you will do probably better than at a first game with lee in the most common case - if you are not familiar with the champion. / Please leave Lee alone, he has been through enough. There are other stuff out there like le blanc chain, twitch, jayce,zac early game, anything but supports as supports and other.

Ariel the CruelMar 18, 20174 votes

There are other stuff out there like le blanc chain, twitch, jayce,zac early game, anything but supports as supports and other.

The existence of higher priorities does not make him a non-issue. (>_>) Nor does Riot's insistence on letting him define the jungle. Season after season.

darkdillMar 18, 20171 votes

The issue is that taking advantage of an enemy's ult being down is part of outplaying them. Unfortunately, Lee Sin is almost never caught with his ultimate down and it can be incredibly impactful.

And I was only using Warwick as an example, so stop comparing. I could've listed anyone else and it'd be a similar story: you get an upper hand on Lee Sin, he just ends the fight by kicking you away.

My beef with that is that the Lee Sin player never has to actually think about whether or not to use Dragon Rage because he knows it'll be back up within a very short time.

AirKingNeoMar 19, 20171 votes

How do you outplay Lee's ult? It roots, knocks, then stuns. The root is undodgeable since it's a targeted ability and that makes the rest of the ability un-outplayable.

darkdillMar 19, 20171 votes

It's not even a root; it's a stun. You can't use Barrier or other non-movement abilities while he's about to kick you. That's killed me as Lux so many times. [slayer-jinx-unamused]

AirKingNeoMar 19, 20171 votes

It's a root. 0.25 second root.

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Lee_Sin

darkdillMar 19, 20171 votes

So why am I not able to use other non-movement abilities while he's winding it up? Wikia's can be wrong, you know.

AirKingNeoMar 19, 20171 votes

Because it's 0.25 seconds, meaning you're knocked (stunned) before you do anything.

AKA, bad reaction time.

darkdillMar 19, 20171 votes

Even when I'm hammering the D key for Barrier well beforehand?

AtanchanMar 19, 20171 votes

I mean, you could very well be shit at button mashing.

Latency and any input lag with your keyboard could also be the source - it is only 0.25 seconds, after all.

Sexy Jack RabbitMar 19, 20171 votes

The real question is why the fuck does it Root you in the first place.

AirKingNeoMar 19, 20171 votes

This ^

ShonjlMar 19, 20171 votes

{quoted}

So you want R to be nerfed again.. Only because you cannot outplay a Lee? The idea of CDR is too have little quick skirmishes where you unload all your spells for a good trade or even a kill. Yes, if you just go AA him you will get punished . You are completely talking nonsense for two different kind of junglers. Lee has outplay potential , WW not so much and that's why he is cheaper in IP, easier to play /imagine playing ww for the first time - you will do probably better than at a first game with lee in the most common case - if you are not familiar with the champion. / Please leave Lee alone, he has been through enough. There are other stuff out there like le blanc chain, twitch, jayce,zac early game, anything but supports as supports and other.

Not really in the slightest. I honestly don't get how people act like Lee is hard to play, he honestly isn't. Anyone can Q R Q auto and that still generally messes people up if not outright kills them. Its not hard to insec as Lee since all it takes is a flash or a ward, its not hard to flash r and walk away easily. God forbid he messes up, he just ward jumps with a free shield and walks away.

WW if anything is harder to play than Lee, a bad WW will feed out the ass while a good one will be insanely annoying, being hard to kill and having extremely strong objective control. Lee if you are good you are literally a god and even if you are bad again, its still not hard to Q R Q. I can be a 0/20 Lee and still be more useful than some champs that are FED, R is still a thing, he still gives a shield, still can be insanely annoying to deal with, and just build tank so he can't be killed easily.

I mean, while some people will use the excuse Lee is roughly 50% winrate, how is he broke? I would see it as, he has a playrate of like 33% and how is it not lower? If literally 1/3 games has a Lee and he still wins half, thats kinda bad. Its no different than with Ahri being complained about, she has like a 55% winrate and 20% playrate. High playrate SHOULD mean lower winrate. If its even or god forbid above average, thats bad.

But Lee will never be truly nerfed, We all know Riot has favorites and just gotta accept it. They have admited in the past Lee is a broke piece of shit and yet they give him love taps at the worst.

GayFluffyUnicornMar 20, 20171 votes

Lee, riven, Yasuo, Jhin and Ahri are riots favorites. Jhin is still fresh but he is still top tier since all he ever got were love taps nothing else. The other champs are never allowed to fall out of viability especially ahri. That shitter is the overall best midlaner for straight 5 seasons.

Mighty MorteinMar 19, 20171 votes

They reduced the damage of his ult by 150, but the AD scaling on it is still way too high. The CDR on it does deserve a nerf, since he builds so much of it. Black Cleaver and the Warrior Enchantment give him an easy 30% CDR, that's if he didn't decide to run some flat CDR in his runes or CDR per level. And it's a point and click semi-nuking ability with 200% bonus AD. Isn't that too overloaded? And does damage to your targets' teammates (which is okay since it can be kinda hard to land it), it shouldn't wipe out health bars by itself almost.

AirKingNeoMar 19, 20171 votes

Should be 120/90/70

five oh tree Mar 18, 20173 votes

are we really still complaining about lee sin?

Ariel the CruelMar 18, 20172 votes

Did we ever stop?

five oh tree Mar 18, 20172 votes

I suppose not. The boards never stop circle jerking. I just can't wrap my head around the "But his pickrate!" argument when his winrate is negative and there are other champs picked more. God, I pray the enemy team picks lee against me, because that means they don't have someone who is actually strong/aggravating to play against.

Generalists (lee) can be played against by any champion. It's not like picking someone immobile and having them pick vi jungle. There's nothing you can do against that. I'd rather face lee than any other diver in the game.

I'd love for lee to get nerfed so hard that he isn't played anymore, then have graves, ivern, vi, and such all have 15-20% pickrates so these boards would shut the fuck up. Lee is the most meta jungler, in a way, but he is not oppressive, he's not overpowered, and he is definitely not broken at all. Lee has a healthy winrate for his pickrate, and everyone needs to stop complaining about him.

Ariel the CruelMar 19, 20172 votes

Lee has problems. His power budget is significantly greater than most champions.

That said though, he has a mechanical and team coordination requirement to truly maximize his kit potential. Meaning his problems aren't applicable for the vast majority of players (Probably isn't an issue until at least diamond).

The circle jerks exists because people see how strong he is in the super high skill environments (Diamond+ with hundreds of games played experience). The meta for lower levels then trickles down based on that, even though Lee isn't worth crap anymore (unless highly experienced).

Short version: He's often meta-defining only in top tier play. Everyone else is just sick of seeing him.

vOmvbrawfUMar 18, 20173 votes

I thought Lee Sin couldn't get his ult until level 6?

SpecterVonBarenMar 18, 20172 votes

Yes.

Project omenMar 18, 20172 votes

For a champion that is supposed to be oppressive in the early and mid game? I'm thinking no. But then again, we had the same problem with Talon way before his rework and Riot eventually increased his ult's cd at rank 1. And cdr wasn't so easily accessible back then. Now it is, which is why a lot of champions's cds were nerfed. Examples are Fizz Swain Vladimir and so on. Lee did get cdr as you said (at least 30% with cleaver and warrior). On one hand you have Lee, who is supposed to be strong in the early and mid game and on the other you have the fact that cdr is easily accessible right now. To be honest, I'm still thinking no.

SkZ DoPeMar 18, 20171 votes

Lee is one of these champions, If all his spells would get reduced to 50 dmg each it would not bother me. Id love to see him vanish from league forever

NiyumiMar 19, 20171 votes

Lee is broken and Riot knows it and refuses to nerf him. So...

Kimmy KMar 19, 20171 votes

They nerfed the damage it does but it still does too much IMO. Especially if he kicks you into your teammate? Oh man. Lee Sin is classified as a Fighter/Assassin so I guess it makes sense but like. His Ult has a 200% damage scaling lmao. Why does it have to have high base damage and ALWAYS be up? Rito pls.