We malzahar mains that have played as him before his fotm status played him mid NOT support. The reason for his popular support status is because the role itself simply enables his kit better than mid!
I'm asking you again that you revert the rework until you know what to do with him. Please do not leave him in this state.
ChaddyFantome1 votesIt is not the role that enables the kit better but his kit that functions just as effectively in support as mid, thus making him potent in the support role. Same reason Zyra goes support. She is a perfectly fine Midlaner, but why choose her Mid when you can put her support and be just as effective while also having a Midlaner that actually is super potent in the midlane?
A Bad Nasus1 votesIt is not the role that enables the kit better but his kit that functions just as effectively in support as mid, thus making him potent in the support role. Same reason Zyra goes support. She is a perfectly fine Midlaner, but why choose her Mid when you can put her support and be just as effective while also having a Midlaner that actually is super potent in the midlane?
His ability to solo kill midlane has been recently shafted with the 7.3 changes adding a whole second between voidling casts. Unless ridiculously fed he isn't killing anyone with just one voidling QWER combo and no one with half a brain is going to stand there waiting for him to summon both anyway. If you summon a voidling to block a skillshot, you just lost alot of lane pressure, support malzahar doesn't have to worry about this because he isn't the one managing the wave in botlane. He is free to harrass the enemy adc moreso if they have a melee support and has a kit that is way too good against our favorite hook supports 
so no I don't agree that his strength as a midlaner equals his support.
Patch 6.23 started this entire problem nerfing his ability to hardpush lane, zone / have kill pressure on his opponent altogether (It was also a major nerf to jungle malzahar) and it wasn't until the some Koreans found out this new way to play him (
support was always considered a troll pick before no one denies that) and started abusing it that it spread and became popular.
ChaddyFantome1 votes[{quoted}](name=Stunning Potato,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1WRVxAxK,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-02-12T00:43:49.197+0000)
His ability to solo kill midlane has been recently shafted with the 7.3 changes adding a whole second between voidling casts. Unless ridiculously fed he isn't killing anyone with just one voidling QWER combo and no one with half a brain is going to stand there waiting for him to summon both anyway.
He isn't meant to kill someone by pressing all his buttons on them mindlessly.
Ideally what you would do is get your E on them, Cast a W, Q them, Cast another W then Ulti them. Doing so refreshes your E each time for maximum DPS.
Regardless, you don't need to solokill to be effective mid. That's not what the point of midlane is. The point is the access to the farm and higher level up.
Malzahar simply doesn't need the influx of gold and EXP as much as other midlane picks to be as effective as he is and thus he does just as fine in the support role. The entire point of th support role is being as effective as possible with the least amount of gold and EXP. Malzahar accomplishes this.
If you summon a voidling to block a skillshot, you just lost alot of lane pressure, support malzahar doesn't have to worry about this because he isn't the one managing the wave in botlane. He is free to harrass the enemy adc moreso if they have a melee support and has a kit that is way too good against our favorite hook supports
None of this would be different is you reverted malzahar. If anything he would be more oppressive since he would have more flat damage on his E for harass and kiting his voidlings to reduce his DPS wouldn't even be a thing.
Also, melee supports just get harassed to hell right now in general, regardless of what support you are playing.
So yes I disagree with your disagreement with my points.
You aren't looking at the entire picture.
Patch 6.23 started this entire problem nerfing his ability to hardpush lane, zone / have kill pressure on his opponent altogether (It was also a major nerf to jungle malzahar) and it wasn't until the some Koreans found out this new way to play him (
Thing is, Malzahar Support didn't happen as a result of his MYMU and certainly didn't happen purely as a result of the changes to Malzahars W. Many things happened during preseason, especially to the support role, including the nerf to 
, which made it more appealing on supports than midlaners, the introduction of 
and the change to 
, which all widened the scope of what could be ran in the bot lane as a support.
I firmly believe that even if the changes to Malzahar in patch 6.23 didn't happen, and hel, even if he was never reworked during the MYMU, he would still have gotten played support during this time.
He would still be able to use voidlings to help jungle leashes (albeit much less effectively, but that didn't make or break Zyra support) he would still be able to harass with impunity. He would still have better access to his core items on a limited budget and he would still have his ultimate. Hell, his ultimate would be more powerful.
He would even have an easier time proc'ing 
with his old W.
Paroe2 votesIt is not the role that enables the kit better but his kit that functions just as effectively in support as mid, thus making him potent in the support role. Same reason Zyra goes support. She is a perfectly fine Midlaner, but why choose her Mid when you can put her support and be just as effective while also having a Midlaner that actually is super potent in the midlane?
No, it is completely the role that enables his kit. In the rework malzahar lost a TON of kill ability - he still does a ton of damage but his lethality is just so low; when he was in competitive as a mid laner his main role was **dont feed the snowball midlaner and once the mid game hits ult priority targets so the actual carries can get the kill. **Malzahar has, since the rework, always been an auxiliary support.
The bot lane provides malzahar - a champion with very high damage and very low lethality - a chance to actually shine due to the fact ADCs are lethal and ganks are much more effective in the bot lane. Even after the voidling nerf, which makes ALL roles of malzahar feel clunky and flat bad to play, malzahar will STILL be played botlane because he is a very, very, very effective duo bot champion who has most of his damage come from %HP. 
are malzahars core items. Notice anything? % CHP damage. If liandries were removed, malzahar would simply become unplayable because it is a majority of his damage.
Theres also the fact the botlane is simply shaped very well for malzahar, especially with the 600 range (CAITLYN HAS MORE RANGE THAN MALZAHARS MAIN DAMAGE ABILITY. HE WILL NEVER TOUCH A CHAMPION HE USED TO COUNTER) voidlings; malzahar can hide in a bush or, due to the curved shap, cut his opponents off in order to stay in damage range. Malzahar is an EARLY GAME DAMAGE CHAMPION who excelled at creating advantages for laning partners because his damage in the early game is simply high. He has been nerfed so that his damage at ALL STAGES of the game is mediocre.
ChaddyFantome1 votesNo, it is completely the role that enables his kit. In the rework malzahar lost a TON of kill ability -
So?
He didn't lose damage did he?
he still does a ton of damage but his lethality is just so low;
your point?
when he was in competitive as a mid laner his main role was **dont feed the snowball midlaner and once the mid game hits ult priority targets so the actual carries can get the kill.
Many midlane mages are like this in general.
Orianna, Taliyah, Viktor, Casseopia, etc. Their job isn't to instagib someone. Their job is to provide damage and utility to the team.
You have a warped idea as to what the point of midlane is.
The bot lane provides malzahar - a champion with very high damage and very low lethality - a chance to actually shine due to the fact ADCs are lethal and ganks are much more effective in the bot lane.
Do you even botlane?
Botlane is objectively the hardest lase to gank. Not only is there 2 people with shit like Exhaust to stop you, but the second laners entire purpose is to prevent you from killing the other.
I suppose you could argue midlane is harder depending on who you are ganking, bt generally speaking , ther eis a reason you send 5 people botlane when you gank it for a fiesta, lol.
Even after the voidling nerf, which makes ALL roles of malzahar feel clunky and flat bad to play, malzahar will STILL be played botlane because he is a very, very, very effective duo bot champion who has most of his damage come from %HP.
I fail to see the correlation between Malzahar being a %DPS champion and him being a duobot champion. Or rather, if there does exist a correlation, how this only applies to malzahar post MYMU, since those have always been his core items even before the rework.
Theres also the fact the botlane is simply shaped very well for malzahar, especially with the 600 range (CAITLYN HAS MORE RANGE THAN MALZAHARS MAIN DAMAGE ABILITY. HE WILL NEVER TOUCH A CHAMPION HE USED TO COUNTER) voidlings; malzahar can hide in a bush or, due to the curved shap, cut his opponents off in order to stay in damage range.
Malzahar could do that with his E regardless of access to voidlings then.
Also, Caitlyn would just kite the voidlings back anyway into the tower if he is in that bush.
Malzahar is an EARLY GAME DAMAGE CHAMPION who excelled at creating advantages for laning partners because his damage in the early game is simply high. He has been nerfed so that his damage at ALL STAGES of the game is mediocre.
I disagree. Malzahars flat early damage was average to high before the rework and post rework was only high if he met the conditions to increase his DPS.
I fail to see how this correlates with his rework being the reason why he is played support and how him being reverted would change anything.
Paroe2 votesSo?
He didn't lose damage did he?
your point?
Many midlane mages are like this in general.
Orianna, Taliyah, Viktor, Casseopia, etc. Their job isn't to instagib someone. Their job is to provide damage and utility to the team.
You have a warped idea as to what the point of midlane is.
Do you even botlane?
Botlane is objectively the hardest lase to gank. Not only is there 2 people with shit like Exhaust to stop you, but the second laners entire purpose is to prevent you from killing the other.
I suppose you could argue midlane is harder depending on who you are ganking, bt generally speaking , ther eis a reason you send 5 people botlane when you gank it for a fiesta, lol.
I fail to see the correlation between Malzahar being a %DPS champion and him being a duobot champion. Or rather, if there does exist a correlation, how this only applies to malzahar post MYMU, since those have always been his core items even before the rework.
Malzahar could do that with his E regardless of access to voidlings then.
Also, Caitlyn would just kite the voidlings back anyway into the tower if he is in that bush.
I disagree. Malzahars flat early damage was average to high before the rework and post rework was only high if he met the conditions to increase his DPS.
I fail to see how this correlates with his rework being the reason why he is played support and how him being reverted would change anything.
Malzahar did lose damage. 840+1.5 base to be exact.
Botlane is easy to gank when malzahar is the duo; malzahars entire kit revolves around getting enemies low without actually killing them. It makes ganking, or rather camping, super easy.
%HP is very stable but doesnt carry a lot of weight. Malzahars kit synergizes well with this because %HP damage rarely kills on its own, and malzahars actual base damages are very low for a mid laner. Pre-rework, malzahar was an anti assassin burst mage. He might have gotten rylais, but more often than not RoA, ludens, and rabbadans before it.
You missed the point i made entire with the shape of the botlane. Its very important now, keyword there 'NOW", to be able to stay within 600 of whoever hes harassing otherwise MOST of his damage will not happen. Voidlings are NOT cheap, theyre quite expensive for how unreliable they are. The shape of the botlane enables him, when in cooperation with his jungler/ADC, to stay within range and do the damage he needs to do. And yes caitlyn could just kill the voidlings, but there used to be two of them and he didnt have to put himself at much risk so he could afford to let them do ~three basics combined and call it a good trade.
Malzahars base damage was in-line with other DoT mages pre-rework. Something riot doesnt seem to understand is that magic resist and health regen effects each tick. If you have 50% reduction and malzahars E does 100 per tick... thats 50 damage per tick. And when you bring in health regen and other healing effects, it more or less nullifies any DoT damage in the short term and is one of the leading reasons why malzahar doesnt have much lethality.
The rework, and subsequent atrocious nerfs, have given malzahar the following traits: A) He has a very hard time killing enemy champions alone. B) He doesnt burst waves, making both shoves with E+W possible, and freezes with E possible. C) He is VERY good at holding designated targets in place for a jungler or carry to get the kill.
Those three traits are things you want in an aggressive support whose job is to keep enemies from engaging properly and punish them when they do. If malzahar had a powerful slow on his Q instead of a silence, he would very much so be a "mage support" along the lines of brand and karma.
If riot remotely cared they would revert the charge system on W entirely and change the voidlings cooldown to scale with rank. That way his midlane isnt effected (You rush morellos) and his duo-bot is kept in check.
The charge system was a consolation buff when they nerfed how his voidlings spawned anyway.
ChaddyFantome1 votes
- Malzahar did lose damage. 840+1.5 base to be exact.
That's only a nerf if you are just pressing all your buttons on someone. Malzahar actually gained damage via refreshing his E.
- Botlane is easy to gank when malzahar is the duo; malzahars entire kit revolves around getting enemies low without actually killing them. It makes ganking, or rather camping, super easy.
I wouldn't say his kit is about getting people low without killing. His Not anymoreso than before his rework anyway.
- %HP is very stable but doesnt carry a lot of weight. Malzahars kit synergizes well with this because %HP damage rarely kills on its own, and malzahars actual base damages are very low for a mid laner.
But his total damage is substantially high via refreshing his E and multipel voidlings. I dont see your point.
Pre-rework, malzahar was an anti assassin burst mage.
I wouldn't call him a burst damge. he was still DPS based. he could just all-in someone under his Surpression much more mindlessly and reliably.
He might have gotten rylais, but more often than not RoA, ludens, and rabbadans before it.
Malzahar never got damn Ludens except that brief period where it was broken and every AP based champ got it. He was always gettign RoA/Rylais?Liandries combo. its always been his core. even when DFG was a thing and he got that too.
- You missed the point i made entire with the shape of the botlane. Its very important now, keyword there 'NOW", to be able to stay within 600 of whoever hes harassing otherwise MOST of his damage will not happen. Voidlings are NOT cheap, theyre quite expensive for how unreliable they are. The shape of the botlane enables him, when in cooperation with his jungler/ADC, to stay within range and do the damage he needs to do. And yes caitlyn could just kill the voidlings, but there used to be two of them and he didnt have to put himself at much risk so he could afford to let them do ~three basics combined and call it a good trade.
Ok. but I still fail to see what this has to do with him prerework. again. it seems youa re the one missing the point here. Prerework malzahar would just be able to press E and call it a day.
- Malzahars base damage was in-line with other DoT mages pre-rework. Something riot doesnt seem to understand is that magic resist and health regen effects each tick. If you have 50% reduction and malzahars E does 100 per tick... thats 50 damage per tick. And when you bring in health regen and other healing effects, it more or less nullifies any DoT damage in the short term and is one of the leading reasons why malzahar doesnt have much lethality.
This has been the case with dot mages since their inception, which is why comes with Magic pen to begin with.
Thsi sin;t exclusive to malzahar and Dot mage damage across the board was reduced for the most part durign the MYMU. Casseopia had a similar thign happen to her....twice.
Riot doesn't like the idea of doing 50% of someone HP over time because you clicked one spell on them. They find ti both boring gameplaywise and obnoxious to play against, which is why they gate it behind the Dot mage having to reach a condition to maximise the damage now.
Brand's DoT was nerf'd in favor of his Bomb passive, Casseopia's DoT was nerf'd in favor of having he E damage boosted on poisoned Targets, and Malzahars was nerf'd in favor of having it refreshed with other spells and interact with his Voidlings.
Why then are we singling out Malzahar?
- The rework, and subsequent atrocious nerfs, have given malzahar the following traits: A) He has a very hard time killing enemy champions alone.
So what?
This seems more like a "i don't like" than a "problem" . Mages in general aren't meant to necessarily kill things alone. their job is to deal huge amounts of magic based damage. Malzahar does this.
B) He doesnt burst waves, making both shoves with E+W possible, and freezes with E possible.
He never bursted waves tho.
C) He is VERY good at holding designated targets in place for a jungler or carry to get the kill.
He has always had this strength. The rework didn't give him this. He has always had this as a trait of his.
Those three traits are things you want in an aggressive support whose job is to keep enemies from engaging properly and punish them when they do.
Then we agree Malzahar being reverted wouldn't change a damn thing and he would still be played support because he would still have all these traits
If malzahar had a powerful slow on his Q instead of a silence, he would very much so be a "mage support" along the lines of brand and karma.
All mages to a degree are somehwhat supportive in nature as they all have some kind of utility. This is why Mages being played in the botlane as supports has been thing since before supports were even allowed to build anything but wards.
Malzahar is no exception to this and him having a slow on his Q wouldnt change a thing really, since he gets Rylais anyway.
If riot remotely cared they would revert the charge system on W entirely and change the voidlings cooldown to scale with rank. That way his midlane isnt effected (You rush morellos) and his duo-bot is kept in check.
The charge system was a consolation buff when they nerfed how his voidlings spawned anyway.
If your concerns about the change to his W as opposed to reworking the champ entirely, we are having a very different discussion here.
Whether or not this would "fix" anything Im not sure, but I digress.