Janna's win rate? (Why win rate is a limited information stat) Also buff Karma!

StoryDuck··1 votes·294 views

Yep, still 54%ish even after mini-rework + many many nerfs that followed (including big hit on her shield). Win rate by itself is a terrible stat for determining how good a champion is unless its ridiculous like 57+%. The small 45-55% win rate spread is pretty much based on how easy a champion is to use and be effective with. I will grant that Janna is easy to play because her abilities are all decent reward and very minimal risk. Ease of use being tied to a high win rate is a direct cause of auto-fill especially in support role as people get auto-filled to that role the most. It's no surprise that the highest win rate support champions are those that can get by just by placing shields on allies because you have players filling that role that often do not play that role. It can often boil down to "you just don't feed" when in an auto-filed role. Being able to play passive should always be an option but that option allows passive champions to exist and by nature a passive champion will be able to sit back and play...well...passively. we also have to allow a 5% give or take from 50% win rate (45-55) because its just not every going to be possible to reach 50% win rate on all champions.

There are two things win rate can tell us.

  1. If a champion complex or simple.

  2. If something is way off balance.

That's all the data we can get with win rate alone. Even if you throw in play rate that doesn't change the fact that it is just a larger pool of people getting the win rate. Win rate is pretty limited but we can use it in ways that does show there is a problem. As we have established that simple champions tend to have higher win rates and complex champions have lower win rates we can take a look at Karma.

I think it is safe to say karma's kit is pretty simple. The only complex choice comes from deciding which ability to use her R with. She has a basic AoE skill shot, a point and click tether, and a point and click shield. However she has a sub 50% win rate in both support and mid. I would feel safe in saying that Karma needs some buffs as other simple champions like Sona, Janna, Soraka all have much higher win rates. Also more complex champions like Rakan, Braum and Bard have higher win rates as well. By using win rates of other similar champions in the role and comparing kits we can get an idea of a base line idea of what to expect from Karma.

A simple long range poke shielding support should have a much higher win rate (currently 46.46%) but does not. I would also point out that her shield is the strongest with her R compared to all other enchanters and applies in an AoE for ardent this is another red flag that Karma is woefully under performing as currently strong items that favor her kit do not bring her win rate above other non-ardent supports like Leona, Tahm Kench, and Brand.

The point of this is that win rate is a statistic but you can't just say "X champion is too powerful because WIN RATE". Compare the win rate to other win rates of similar champions in that role and then present the data as evidence and not at fact. It's a far more convincing argument. Also, I think we should buff Karma.

Lastly, The only time you should give only win rate as an example of something off is if the win rate is WAY off the mark of 50%. Currently Ryze mid sits at 42.49% win rate and that to me is a big flag something is off for him. I know he s complex but maybe too complex when landing spell rotation? I would say it is fair to say something is off if a win rate is higher then 57% or lower then 43%.

3 Comments

IxtaliKing1 votes

Karma was buffed recently in the safest place Riot could think of (passive) and is currently waiting on a rework. Also, deciding on a Mantra is no longer a complex choice - it's largely dictated by your role (RQ - mage, RW - tank, RE - supp). That in itself is the reason she's a balance problem, her lack of focus doesn't allow her to excel at anything. If she is particularly good at something chances are she's overpowered due to the nature of her kit.

We'll probably have to wait and see the effects the rune update will have on her situation, before Riot looks at further bandaid buffs. However, I'm just waiting on her rework and hoping the bring her firmly back to mid lane with support being a viable (not optimal) option.

JavelinJoe1 votes

Janna is only seeing massive play right now because of the META. Usually she is very good, but the META tends to force another support group over her because she is almost entirely defensive based. So champions like Karma, Lulu, and Thresh are picked over her because they have both defensive uses while also maintaining the offensive / pick threat. Right now with Ardent Censor being so OP/dominant in the current META, she is getting a lot of game play. (She gets played more the higher elo you go too).

Karma on the other hand is not weak by any means. She just has no strength in any specific area. She is a Jack-Of-All-Trades kind of champion. a generalist. Good in many areas but not great in any one area. I like to think of her as the Lucian of Support. When the META is good, and she is not being outdone by other champions, she dominates (remember back a few months ago when she was almost pick/ban?). But with the meta changes and such, she is just being outdone by other champions like Nami, Lulu, Janna, and Rakan because they all have the strong spot she lacks (AOE hard CC with additional hard CC elsewhere). Karma has just her W for Hard CC and it is only single target. Her Q slows but a slow is nothing compared to a 3-5 man knock-up + charm combo or massive wave in team fights.

Lastly, about your win-rate point. Win-rates do matter for judging a champions performance like you said. I agree that some times champions have notably low or high win rates (like Ryze). But you also need to consider the champion's complexity and tendency to dominate games. Ryze is one of the most complex champions in the game. It makes sense h\he has a low win rate because many players have not learned how to use him to the best he can be yet. He is tricky to pick-up as a new player too. So there is some skill bias there. Others are purposely kept low because 1 semi-decent buff would likely make them broken (LeBlanc, Kalista, Nunu). So until RIOT figures out how to deal with them, they are kept on the back burner where they will not become a major problem for some time.

sit kid1 votes

I think there's 2 factors when Riot decides to nerf/buff champions. Winrate & compeditive play

Taking both into mention, champions that have much more strength and less counterplay tend to have lower winrates due to the pro scene picking them up, and viceversa. That's why Enchanter supports have been so good in solo queue even before ardent censer meta. Janna and Soraka have been sitting at above 52% winrates for a long time, but leaving them pretty unsatisfying since Sorakas only function was heals and silences and for Janna the shield and CC her ult and Q provides.

Now with ardent, they get the opportunity to make their ADC a one man army, pretty much reducing counterplay by alot. The same happened with Dark Seal Singed (although to a much lesser extend). He had a horrible laning phase, but the Dark Seals compensated for it.

Soraka, Soraka and the other enchanters were basically just healers, providing very little. I mean, grab some lifesteal as an ADC and you already have plenty of self-sustain and a support with more CC.

Ardent Censer nerfs on the PBE will touch enchanters compeditively much harder than solo queue, and I think it's going to throw the enchanters back into being solo queue champions. Ardent Censer certainly deserves nerfs, but i think hitting it early on, so rushing it isnt as good, instead of pretty much Olaf'ing it would be a better way to tackle the problem.

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