when a b+ win gives you more points than a s+ defeat

Jennifer420·Jun 10, 2019·13 votes·7,126 views

i gave up finding any logic in this oh well

18 Comments

ZaFishboneJun 10, 20197 votes

If you didn't win, there is no way for the game to judge that you actually did well. We've had strats like proxy singed and inting sion get wins, even tho score-wise, those strats would give the appearance that the dude sucked. We have supports who might get unimpressive scores but who can guarantee a win by carrying the adc until late game. Junglers who can win a game early with enough ganks, but once again miss out ion games and maybe do poorer late game. Winning is the only TRUE metric by which we can judge how skilled someone is.

ShahamutJun 10, 20193 votes

Except that for all of the same arguments you presented, those people can still win while contributing nothing:

People get carried sometimes, and there are times that even the best players lose games, and not because they played poorly.

I have heard MANY challenger players (such as Moe aka Yassuo) talk about how difficult it is to climb out of certain elos this season, silver and plat in particular, and then again at diamond 1.

Winning is not the only TRUE metric of skill, it's just the only one that matters when talking about ranking and mmr. You have to remember that you are only 20% of your team. That's far from a majority. It would be nice if other metrics could be weighted in there somewhere as well, but unfortunately it doesnt.

Pika FoxJun 10, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Except that for all of the same arguments you presented, those people can still win while contributing nothing:

People get carried sometimes, and there are times that even the best players lose games, and not because they played poorly.

I have heard MANY challenger players (such as Moe aka Yassuo) talk about how difficult it is to climb out of certain elos this season, silver and plat in particular, and then again at diamond 1.

Winning is not the only TRUE metric of skill, it's just the only one that matters when talking about ranking and mmr. You have to remember that you are only 20% of your team. That's far from a majority. It would be nice if other metrics could be weighted in there somewhere as well, but unfortunately it doesnt.

People get carried, sure, but unless the other person is a smurf, it still takes skill to get carried. Its not as simple as "do nothing, get free win". And winning via getting carried and losing by getting an uncarryable team are not nearly as common as winning or losing through your own skill.

ShahamutJun 10, 20193 votes

my point simply is, even if you outplay your opponent, even if you are BETTER than your opponent, and make all the right decisions, you can and WILL still lose games.

All I am doing here is pointing out that winning is not the only ACTUAL metric of skill in the game, because all of your skill can be overcome by 9 other players in the wrong spots or on the wrong day. Its just that winning is the only metric that MATTERS for climbing because its the only metric that grants you LP.

Why is boosting a thing? because you don't have to be good at the game to climb, you just have to be on the winning team.

Pika FoxJun 10, 20192 votes

{quoted}

my point simply is, even if you outplay your opponent, even if you are BETTER than your opponent, and make all the right decisions, you can and WILL still lose games.

All I am doing here is pointing out that winning is not the only ACTUAL metric of skill in the game, because all of your skill can be overcome by 9 other players in the wrong spots or on the wrong day. Its just that winning is the only metric that MATTERS for climbing because its the only metric that grants you LP.

Why is boosting a thing? because you don't have to be good at the game to climb, you just have to be on the winning team.

Rarely. 90% of the time, if youre actually performing better, you will win. Having a good k/d/a is not performing better. You could be a 20/0 zed and contribute far less to the team than a 0/20 sion.

ShahamutJun 11, 20193 votes

And you aren't listening. I never specifically mentioned kda.

Boosting is a thing. Why is that? 90% of the time it's not boosting?

I simply said other metrics can determine overall skill. We have a stats page that shows not ONLY our kda, but also our average farm, gold lead, roam dominance, objective control, etc. If you are equally matched against 2 enemies in skill, but the other 7 players all suck, odds are you will lose. Its not a garantee though. Might get lucky, have a great game, or they might have a bad game.

You are only 10% of the players. 20% of your team. 90% of the game is out of your control. And recent seasons have become WAY more team reliant than in years past. See Faker.

ZephyrDrakeJun 11, 20193 votes

{quoted}

And you aren't listening. I never specifically mentioned kda.

Boosting is a thing. Why is that? 90% of the time it's not boosting?

I simply said other metrics can determine overall skill. We have a stats page that shows not ONLY our kda, but also our average farm, gold lead, roam dominance, objective control, etc. If you are equally matched against 2 enemies in skill, but the other 7 players all suck, odds are you will lose. Its not a garantee though. Might get lucky, have a great game, or they might have a bad game.

You are only 10% of the players. 20% of your team. 90% of the game is out of your control. And recent seasons have become WAY more team reliant than in years past. See Faker.

And guess what? They all mean absolutely nothing. You can play for stats incredibly easy if you wanted to. There is someone who lost to BEGINNER bots by nothing but playing for stats. You are not going to be playing at your absolute best in every single game. You WILL have terrible games. Every single person in existence will get carried at some point and for quite a number of times regardless of their actual skill lvl.

ShahamutJun 11, 20195 votes

Statistics and logic aren't your strong point I see. Well, if playing to have gold advantages, kda, and taking that lead in to objective damage and roam dominance isn't the path to winning i dont know what to tell you.

But hey that stuff doesn't matter right? So as long as my team Carrie's me and i win, that means i am also good, because i won. Even if i contribute nothing in terms of tower damage, kill participation. Doesn't matter, i won and that makes me a good player...?

Good players will still lose, even if they are the best player in said game. This is very true for support mains especially, and more so when they play tanks. Because 90% of the players can still screw you no matter how good you actually are.

Good players dont ONLY have good win rates, they have good CS scores, high objective damage and/or kill participation. All of these stats contribute to wins, but they do not guarantee them, nothing does.

You still haven't addressed the issue of elo-boosting, but just continue to dogmatically repeat the same garbage of "it doesn't matter because winning..." I have bested diamond players in normal games, been accused of using a false account as a gold 4 vs a plat 1 in a small time league. I have lost to someone stuck in bronze 1 in custom 5v5s. I've been hard carried and watched my lane opponent get hard carried.

To reiterate my original point: there are many metrics to measure skill in the game, winning is unfortunately the only on that affects LP gain.

ZephyrDrakeJun 11, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Statistics and logic aren't your strong point I see. Well, if playing to have gold advantages, kda, and taking that lead in to objective damage and roam dominance isn't the path to winning i dont know what to tell you.

But hey that stuff doesn't matter right? So as long as my team Carrie's me and i win, that means i am also good, because i won. Even if i contribute nothing in terms of tower damage, kill participation. Doesn't matter, i won and that makes me a good player...?

Good players will still lose, even if they are the best player in said game. This is very true for support mains especially, and more so when they play tanks. Because 90% of the players can still screw you no matter how good you actually are.

Good players dont ONLY have good win rates, they have good CS scores, high objective damage and/or kill participation. All of these stats contribute to wins, but they do not guarantee them, nothing does.

You still haven't addressed the issue of elo-boosting, but just continue to dogmatically repeat the same garbage of "it doesn't matter because winning..." I have bested diamond players in normal games, been accused of using a false account as a gold 4 vs a plat 1 in a small time league. I have lost to someone stuck in bronze 1 in custom 5v5s. I've been hard carried and watched my lane opponent get hard carried.

To reiterate my original point: there are many metrics to measure skill in the game, winning is unfortunately the only on that affects LP gain.

seems to me you are the one whose statistics isn't their strong suit. STATS CAN BE PADDED. Simple as that, playing for stats is easier than playing to win. This is not a discussion or an opinion. This is a FACT! I can put a control ward in the brush near my own base at the start of the game and inflate my vision score insanely easily. I can pick champions who excel at CSing and have stupidly high CS scores. I can use my skills on cooldown to inflate my numbers. High stats mean absolutely nothing. Someone who roams ONCE and gets a kill is way more impactful than someone who roams 5 times and don't even get a single summoner. How much or how high you have a stat is useless if it doesn't achieve anything. The goal of the game is to blow up the enemy nexus not "hey guys I can CS good!". Every single stat in the game is completely dependent on the state of that particular game, what champions are in that game. it's something that in every single game you would have to put a * in every single stat to clarify a billion things that have to be taken into consideration in each and every single game. A losing matchup with bas CS isn't anything new. A winning matchup with bad CS is something bad. A roaming champion that never roams is bad, someone like Xerath not roaming isn't bad. Not every stat is important to every single champion in the game and as a result are not important to every single player in the game. What does a support care about CSing? or damage in general? but wait! some supports do damage so you can't just completely ignore that aspect. The same for so many champions and play style that each player is just good at. It's completely pointless to look at stats when there is ZERO context behind them.

ShahamutJun 11, 20194 votes

Stats all have context, yes, and that makes them hard to interpret in general. Which I guess they mean nothing if all you do is auto fill and play all 5 roles on a consistent basis.

"playing for stats" is stupid. I don't even understand why anyone would do that, you play to win. What your stats CAN tell you is the areas of the game where you struggle in particular. HENCE, they are a metric that measures SKILL in a particular area of the game.

MMR can be manipulated, boosters do it all the time. I have never met anyone who SERIOUSLY plays the game just to see if they can have a good KDA. Everyone that I have met is trying to win the game if they aren't legit intentionally trolling.

By your logic, I dont need to cs, I just need to run into their base and destroy the nexus. How am I going to do that without levels, or gold... or without dying... or destroying the... other ... turrets... ... ...?

Pika FoxJun 11, 20191 votes

{quoted}

And you aren't listening. I never specifically mentioned kda.

Boosting is a thing. Why is that? 90% of the time it's not boosting?

I simply said other metrics can determine overall skill. We have a stats page that shows not ONLY our kda, but also our average farm, gold lead, roam dominance, objective control, etc. If you are equally matched against 2 enemies in skill, but the other 7 players all suck, odds are you will lose. Its not a garantee though. Might get lucky, have a great game, or they might have a bad game.

You are only 10% of the players. 20% of your team. 90% of the game is out of your control. And recent seasons have become WAY more team reliant than in years past. See Faker.

Simple fact of the matter is there is a less than 30 MMR difference between all the members of your team, and a less than 4 MMR difference between the two teams.

The vast majority of your games will be close enough that your skill will have a direct impact on the outcome of the game as a result. Even if its a game where youre in a bad matchup and need to get carried, you need the skill to put yourself into that position and minimize losses.

The FACT is YOUR skill determines YOUR rank. If youre not climbing and you play multiple games a day, the FACT is it is because of YOU.

ShahamutJun 11, 20194 votes

and when someone runs it down, afk's, tilts off the planet or leaves the game, none of that matters. MMR can be manipulated as much as any other "stat" in the game. And it is. Regulary, by BOOSTERS.

You people are actually stupid or just not reading if you think I am saying "MY SKILL DOESNT MATTER WHAA!! COINFLIP GAMES!"

The only thing I was pointing out is there are aspects of the game to be "good" at. There are areas you can look at to "improve" your chances of winning. An individual can only focus on their own performance, but just because you are the only one that you can control does not mean that EVERY GAME YOU LOSE IS YOUR FAULT. That's stupid. Great point for teaching a mind set, but not a factual truth.

SaezioJun 11, 20191 votes

You are arguing with someone that only plays bots unless a mission requires you to go pvp.

ShahamutJun 11, 20194 votes

lawl

Pika FoxJun 12, 20191 votes

{quoted}

and when someone runs it down, afk's, tilts off the planet or leaves the game, none of that matters. MMR can be manipulated as much as any other "stat" in the game. And it is. Regulary, by BOOSTERS.

You people are actually stupid or just not reading if you think I am saying "MY SKILL DOESNT MATTER WHAA!! COINFLIP GAMES!"

The only thing I was pointing out is there are aspects of the game to be "good" at. There are areas you can look at to "improve" your chances of winning. An individual can only focus on their own performance, but just because you are the only one that you can control does not mean that EVERY GAME YOU LOSE IS YOUR FAULT. That's stupid. Great point for teaching a mind set, but not a factual truth.

None of this is a legitimate argument, because youre not going to be in a game with an inting troll or a booster more than 1% of your games.

If you cannot climb, it is YOUR FAULT. PERIOD.

Autrah FangJun 10, 20195 votes

I mean, this is the same system that wants you to participate in/take all of the kills in the game, but also afk farm and have 150 cs at 15 minutes (which are both mutually exclusive) on a jungler, and also have 0 deaths whatsoever just to get an S-. However, get 140 farm or die literally once and it's an A+... Yeah, I'd say the system makes zero sense [zombie-nunu-bummed]

(if it wasn't obvious, this comment is full of hyperbole, but as someone who's been trying to get M7 on Evelynn for the last year+, it really feels like this)

ZaFishboneJun 10, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=That Shaman,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1Oqz3YvK,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-06-10T04:52:35.070+0000)

I mean, this is the same system that wants you to participate in/take all of the kills in the game, but also afk farm and have 150 cs at 15 minutes (which are both mutually exclusive) on a jungler, and also have 0 deaths whatsoever just to get an S-. However, get 140 farm or die literally once and it's an A+... Yeah, I'd say the system makes zero sense [zombie-nunu-bummed]

(if it wasn't obvious, this comment is full of hyperbole, but as someone who's been trying to get M7 on Evelynn for the last year+, it really feels like this)

Play ranked a lot, then, once you've improved, come back to normals. That's what I did to get my last M7 token. If you won't even try to play ranked, don't be surprised if you never improve. Normal MMr matchmaking is too inconsistent to foster a good learning experience.