If assasins are intended to have delayed burst marksmen need delayed sustain

Irelia Bot·Jun 10, 2017·152 votes·5,318 views

Sanguine Blade generally did not seem to be well liked because it is not as reliable when compared to the flat stats of bloodthirster. But given that marksmen often heal well above 10% of their health with a single auto it might be the hit needed to their sustain as the counter measure to assassins having longer windows required for their burst.

Make sustained damage required to get sustain, make it dependent on a debuff on the target getting stacked 5 times to get maximized lifesteal from any lifesteal item.

This is not about the damage on the items, only the lifesteal.

162 Comments

RebonackJun 10, 201759 votes

I've never been fond of Lifesteal/Spellvamp as a concept in general. It's fine for a champ's kit component since they're ostensibly paying for it in power budget and can be balanced around it, but being able to itemize for it tends to skew things. That's why Spellvamp was straight up removed. If Lifesteal didn't exist, regen and healing Supports would be far more valuable.

Seeing someone full-heal late game with four auto attacks on some minions is just silly.

Big LincolnJun 10, 201710 votes

dps champs need it in order to be able to outplay burst and still be able to contribute to a fight

RebonackJun 10, 201747 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=19YH8pa1,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-06-10T15:46:32.013+0000)

dps champs need it in order to be able to outplay burst and still be able to contribute to a fight

Outplaying burst as a Marksmen should be coming from good positioning and a Support with a modicum of awareness. This coming from a Kog OTP.

Big LincolnJun 10, 201713 votes

and what if that burst is targeted? lifesteal gives dps champs the opportunity to heal back up. if there was no lifesteal then unless you had a healing support you wouldn't be allowed to participate in the teamfight even if you survived, because the enemy could just hit you once more to finish you off despite their assassin failing to finish the job

Sahn UzalJun 10, 20173 votes

Isn't lifesteal kinda supposed to be a counter to sustained damage? While it won't affect burst champions as much because they don't give you the time to lifesteal through their damage? That's the idea behind it atleast, right?

Big LincolnJun 10, 201714 votes

lifesteal helps you fight other sustained damage champions but its most useful at letting you heal up after eating burst. like, if Syndra could just ult an ADC, not kill them, and then they couldn't lifesteal it back, she would be a lot stronger than she is now, and so would other burst champs, because they could send your DPS back to base even if they didn't play well enough to full-out kill them

my problem is that lifesteal is too high, on top of supports getting heal/shield boosts on top of Redemption coming into the game for another big heal. tho I would say that the supports are the real problem given how some of them can just perma-shield a carry while also CClocking any attackers

Sahn UzalJun 10, 20172 votes

Ah, got ya. Yeah I think that's fair.

I do agree that lifesteal is a bit too high for all the shielding and healing there already is aswell.

RebonackJun 10, 201735 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=19YH8pa1,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2017-06-10T16:01:31.800+0000)

and what if that burst is targeted? lifesteal gives dps champs the opportunity to heal back up. if there was no lifesteal then unless you had a healing support you wouldn't be allowed to participate in the teamfight even if you survived, because the enemy could just hit you once more to finish you off despite their assassin failing to finish the job

If you don't have a healing Support, your shielding Support failed to react in time, your Tank Support didn't intercept for you, or your team decided to grab Brand instead of a someone with more utility, then that's the price you should be paying for getting pounced on by an Assassin.

Or you could just snag a nice anti-burst item to mitigate the issue. That's what Maw and Guardian Angel are for, yes?

kasfasJun 10, 201710 votes

Or I mean you don't need to play an adc, you could try a less squishy and team reliant champion botlane.

That's not to say marksmen shouldn't go there, but if your team lacks peel for you you shouldn't be surviving an assassin combo.

Take this with one of the many grains of salt we have here, as I am a tank main.

Irelia BotJun 10, 201724 votes

You dare suggest that something other than marksmen and a support can go bot?

What do you think this is? DOTA 2?

kasfasJun 10, 201718 votes

THIS IS BOTLANE!! https://68.media.tumblr.com/3aa2bc78f704590f16e3aad479cd4cba/tumblr_mvyj69kVop1rj2phto1_500.gif

SH AzykanJun 10, 20172 votes

confirmed pantheon bot lane new meta

starelementpokeJun 10, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=19YH8pa1,comment-id=0001000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2017-06-10T17:01:10.229+0000)

You dare suggest that something other than marksmen and a support can go bot?

What do you think this is? DOTA 2?

No, the Defense of the Ancients mod.

ModAcademy KaynJun 10, 20177 votes

At the same time, if an ADC is able to dodge or outplay an assassin, why shouldn't they have a way to survive after that? Why does every team have to be a "Protect the Kog" comp?

kasfasJun 10, 201715 votes

I mean sure, but you shouldnt be able to have made their whole assasination attempt pointless because you right clicked a few times. That damage should stick a bit.

Like when a nami wave gets blocked by a yasuo windwall its just a total nullification of something, but in this case you nullify the whole champion!

and in the case of the "protect the kog" thing, if a champion builds no defensive stats and has every class in the game dedicated to killing them then they should sure as hell need protection, because if they dont that just means they are overpowered.

ModAcademy KaynJun 10, 20177 votes

Kog shouldn't be the pinnacle in which we balance ADC's around. He's the outlier, not the base.

RebonackJun 10, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=19YH8pa1,comment-id=0001000000000001,timestamp=2017-06-10T16:36:10.960+0000)

Kog shouldn't be the pinnacle in which we balance ADC's around. He's the outlier, not the base.

Most Marksmen are far more self-sufficient than Kog is. If they get sacked in spite of all their mobility/CC/whatever, then that's on them.

I'll say this, I have no issue with a Marksmen being able to heal up after a skirmish. I just think that sustain should come from sources outside the Marksmen (healing Supports or healing support items) or from items with real opportunity cost involved (less gimpy HP regen due to the loss of Lifesteal).

Hell, you could even do something crazy like creating a Marksmen item that builds out of the Bottle.

ModAcademy KaynJun 10, 20174 votes

Why is healing during combat so wrong? A marksmen is reliant on their team sure, but that reliance ends with peeling off engagers and divers. A team can't always stop an assassin or a mage, but if the ADC is good enough to be able to dodge some vital part of a combo, then they shouldn't be punished for being completely out of a fight regardless, unless they decided to champ select a Healer.

That's ridiculously dependent on a team, and while that may sound alright for a Kog main as yourself, for Kog to work best, people build entire team comps around him. For that idea you're suggesting to work, you'd have to focus entire teams around keeping your frail carry safe, which discounts what others want to do. Not everyone wants to be a Lulu, or a Peeler for someone else to do the work.

kile147Jun 10, 20176 votes

Honestly healing during combat wouldn't be as much of a pain if it wasn't so damn much. Warwick is a frustrating champ because has an obscene amount of sustain in his kit and he still doesn't heal as much as carries can. Combat sustain should encourage focusing the target, but as it is it basically means you 100-0 instantly or don't bother attacking at all. It limits the playstyles that are viable and forces assassins to either 100-0 or build bruiser. Because Riot has delayed a lot of assassins' burst the amount of healing has now made their jobs even more feast or famine and is going to force even more bruiser builds.

Hyrum GraffJun 10, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Outplaying burst as a Marksmen should be coming from good positioning and a Support with a modicum of awareness. This coming from a Kog OTP.

Lifesteal isn't about outplaying burst alone, it's about burst vs poke.

Marksman need to be in aa range for an extended duration to be effective, and need relatively squishy builds to be effective. That's a necessary trade-off for best in game dps (not the only tradeoff).

This means they need to be full hp at the start of a fight, or they'll just get popped before they can contribute (in comparison, a mage can drop a full rotation and die, and still be at least a little useful).

In-combat sustain is a still-important but secondary contribution.

makkiiJun 11, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hyrum Graff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=19YH8pa1,comment-id=0001000000000003,timestamp=2017-06-10T23:29:34.511+0000)

Lifesteal isn't about outplaying burst alone, it's about burst vs poke.

Marksman need to be in aa range for an extended duration to be effective, and need relatively squishy builds to be effective. That's a necessary trade-off for best in game dps (not the only tradeoff).

This means they need to be full hp at the start of a fight, or they'll just get popped before they can contribute (in comparison, a mage can drop a full rotation and die, and still be at least a little useful).

In-combat sustain is a still-important but secondary contribution.

But a more reasonable 15-25% lifesteal average fits this situation perfectly, but adc's nowadays be running 40-70% lifesteal with no legitimate level of tradeoff, and are healing half the damage done to them in middle of a fight.

Its to the point where an adc will be at 10% mid teamfight and your one ability away from dispatching them for your team, then 2 people on the other team keep you cc'd for 2-4 seconds while the adc attack moves behind them and they are back to 50% hp, which means it will take another rotation to bring them down provided you unload that exact second....thats when lifesteal is too much.

makkiiJun 10, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=19YH8pa1,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-06-10T15:46:32.013+0000)

dps champs need it in order to be able to outplay burst and still be able to contribute to a fight

Ive never really understood this concept, adc's role in the game is suppose to be farming to lategame where they become the teams sustained damage per second at a superior range over a sustained teamfight.

Mages have more burst but thwir dps is deaigned to be less so why is it that mages arent allowed to have huge spell camp but adc's can have as much lifesteal as they want? Especially with the nerfed vamp on aoe?

Big LincolnJun 10, 20172 votes

because most DPS mages have better inbuilt survivability than ADCs, or, in the case of Karthus, gets to do shit even after you killed him. they aren't really glass cannons either, since a lot of their items have at least some health, if not resists like veil/zhonya's and the unique passive/actives that come with them

makkiiJun 10, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=19YH8pa1,comment-id=0001000000010000,timestamp=2017-06-10T17:34:33.399+0000)

because most DPS mages have better inbuilt survivability than ADCs, or, in the case of Karthus, gets to do shit even after you killed him. they aren't really glass cannons either, since a lot of their items have at least some health, if not resists like veil/zhonya's and the unique passive/actives that come with them

There are quite a few offensive ad items with hp, even more with d stats in general including GA and DD. Furthermore because of the dps issue i mentioned adc's get way more health back overthe course of a fighr than mages do from equal percentages, from a source with no mana cost i might add.

Secondly adcs aren't supposed to be survivable anyways, because they have superior sustained lategame damage, so by all means they should have access to lifesteal but to me they shouldnt have more access to it percentage wise because they scale ludicrously better with it.

They are supposed to be a TEAMS lategame damage output, they arent supposed to outheal another champions damage output outright via their own dmg, thats bad design, considering they already scale better.

macromiteJun 10, 20173 votes

dps champs need it in order to be able to outplay burst.

Why do they need to outplay burst? Is there a legitimate reason?

Big LincolnJun 10, 20174 votes

because every single ADC would be unplayable if they couldn't heal up after eating someone's damage and managing to survive

macromiteJun 10, 20172 votes

because every single ADC would be unplayable if they couldn't heal up after eating someone's damage and managing to survive

So why do they need that healing during combat?

Big LincolnJun 10, 20172 votes

so they can continue to fight? the entire purpose of a DPS class?

macromiteJun 10, 20173 votes

if they've already managed to survive the burst, why is it important for them to continue to gain health?

NineTailedMysticJun 10, 20173 votes

Spellvamp was removed because of Vladimir.

statelesskillerJun 10, 20177 votes

spell vamp wasnt removed BECAUSE of vladimir. spell vamp was removed because no champ EXCEPT vladimir reliably built it. though i still hold TO THIS DAY, that other champs could have built the item if they where not tuned to not need it.

StealWolverineJun 10, 20177 votes

You are missing the point. The reason spellvamp was kept weak enough others didnt use it was because of vlad. If it was strong enough for others to warrant buying, vlad would have been a monster with it.

makkiiJun 10, 20172 votes

{quoted}

You are missing the point. The reason spellvamp was kept weak enough others didnt use it was because of vlad. If it was strong enough for others to warrant buying, vlad would have been a monster with it.

This is true, and thats because when riot designed vlad they didnt build him to have inferior damage as a counterbalance to that, which was stupid on riots part.

Riot has a history of nerfing whole subgroups because of 1-2 champs being broken.

trust me i remember Imbavamp vlad and imbavamp ryze

Sahn UzalJun 11, 20173 votes

Riot stated that spellvamp was a pain to balance because it has to interact with a ton of different spells that deal their damage in a ton of different ways (AoE, Single target etc) while lifesteal is just on Auto attacks (Hell, and lifesteal already proves to be a pain to balance at times :P)

Mister SupportJun 10, 20175 votes

Honestly with the Runes Reforged coming in preseason I'd love if they took lifesteal away from items and made it a rune/keystone you opt into, but is something that ramps up against champions (so that you can't just full heal off of creeps).

General Esdeath Jun 10, 20173 votes

I wouldn't mind lifesteal if we toned it down. There's no reason a item 1053 should be enough lifesteal to make item 3075 useless

crimsonzero2Jun 11, 20173 votes

if item 3075 could inflict grievous wound i think it would make the item a very viable buy

General Esdeath Jun 11, 20172 votes

That's what I've been saying, make it so I can actually do damage with it

Nameless DrifterJun 11, 20173 votes

If Lifesteal gets removed...marksman literally become easy targets for everyone to kill. Healing/shielding supps would have to be 100% picked or ban. Tank/CC supports would see almost no play. Marksman would have to be Enormously buffed in terms of damage...since they lost their sustain since no lifesteal.

And no you cant always heal or protect enough your adc...your game knowledge is honestly lacking. A malzahar support can kill a adc, Zed, Talon, LB, Kat, etc... In literally 1-2 seconds. Even with healing as Soraka its really HARD to make them survive that burst.

With lifesteal gone...Yasuo and Riven would probably become the new botlane "adc"...They can self peel themselves and delete people with enough items. Most importantly they have mobility, something that adcs dont have.

So no deleting lifesteal would be ridiculous and a big mistake.

ModAcademy KaynJun 10, 201711 votes

I'm sorry, but that's just ridiculous. "Delayed Sustain" I mean, what even? The reason ADC's have Lifesteal is so they can keep killing tanks, and to heal back burst if they're able to survive it. If ADCs didn't have that immediate Lifesteal after getting bursted and surviving, it doesn't matter if they lived or not, they're pretty much out of the fight if even a small breeze comes by.

If you want an ADC dead, you play your best to hit them with everything you have. Assassin or Mage, if you land your full combo, that ADC is going to die. But that doesn't mean the ADC is going to be willing about it. They can dodge and outplay whatever you have to throw.

Akali is SO HOTJun 10, 201723 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=19YH8pa1,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-06-10T16:38:02.508+0000)

if you land your full combo, that ADC is going to die

item 3812 item 3026 Lulu item 3222 item 3046 item 3140 item 3107 item 3401 Ivern item 3190 item 3109 summoner 7 summoner 4 Ivern summoner 3 Janna

ModAcademy KaynJun 10, 20172 votes

Supports have always existed. If you have a Class that's playing and building to fuck over an assassin, guess what's going to happen. Might as well list every tank while you're at it.

AaravosJun 10, 201713 votes

Supports are, but item 3812 item 3046 item 3026 item 3107 item 3109 Ivern didn't

ChaosThiefJun 10, 201711 votes

If anything, lifesteal needs to be weaker if you only build one item. The fact that a Bork or a Death's Dance is enough to outsustain any damage whatsoever is dumb. I can understand if they have a bork, death's dance, AND a bloodthirster, but only one is a bit overkill.

AimléssJun 10, 20175 votes

It's like all the top laner tank mains swarm to these boards to spread their ADC hate, its fucking disgusting.

Irelia BotJun 10, 201713 votes

It's like this wouldn't effect all top laners who build lifesteal items as well... /s

AimléssJun 11, 20174 votes

I said tanks, obviously you don't have to read to get upvotes around here. Anyway, it's the bruisers/tank mains that can't burst down ADC's fast enough for them to get their lifesteal. No way does an assassin lose a 1 v 1 with equal gold/skill to an ADC just because the ADC has lifesteal. Unless their support is protecting them, in that case, what do you expect???

Marksmen get bursted down by high damage, so sorry tank/bruiser mains, if you're gonna build tanky, then you aren't gonna be able to 1 v 1 a good marksmen, so yes, there's a drawback to building defense, and yes there are and should be actual champs in the game that can't kill Marksmen. Nitpick and downvote me all you want, you know its true. Now que the irrational hate.

BloodbornSJun 11, 20173 votes

I think its not about the tanks but about the assasins getting nerfed to deal delayed damage, this way its harder for the assasin to kill an ADC reliably (or its almost impossible with some items/champs xD) and after the fight even if you almost killed the ADC he just heals back up in which he makes the assasin completly useless

OP Garen SupportJun 10, 20174 votes

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/Euwc3FXt-stop-ruining-the-game-by-favouring-adc-role

Baron of BreadJun 11, 20173 votes

Perhaps make it so lifesteal functions more like the bleed effect on Death's Dance? Make it so the lifesteal is instead a heal over time effect so it can still save a carry from sustained damage but not heal enough over the course of an assassin's burst to prevent that from killing them.

That way the ADC isn't punished for switching targets based on who they can easily hit and can still sustain up off of minion waves.