Boards›Gameplay

To Reds and anybody else: The intergalactic guide on how to improve the jungle!

GelsominoKiller··7 votes·688 views

Before starting, I'd like to thank Riot balance team for the current status of the game, which has never been so various. Good job. I do really enjoy how the classes coexist in this meta and how we can see a large champion pool and some unused champions (URGOD WTF). I do like the jungle, and i think it is overall in a good state; but since nothing's perfect, as a long run jungle main I'd like to share my ideas on how the role could be improved.

Sorry for my england, it's very bad. I also want to say that there's nothing remotely intergalactic in this post. I lied. I won't apologize for that.

If you want the TD;LR just read the paragraphs headlines, and decide which suggestion do you want to read, if you want to read any.

Lower smite upgrade cost: from 450 to 350 or 400. Why? Simple, in order to create a meaningful choice between clearing more camps on your 1st clear for an extra item or an early gank bet. Currently going for a gank or not results you having the same items in both scenarios, which is a really flat situation.

Turn trailblazer into a "fast clear smite" and create a real "sustain smite": The current problem with trailblazer is that he's occupying the niche of two different purposes. My suggestion is to remove the health and mana restore, re-introduce the cd reduction which was really appreciated and add a new cool, thematically cohesive effect: make the trailblazer literally open a trail, meaning smiting a camp will create a net of roads connecting all your spawned camps for a duration, with you getting movespeed on those roads, for faster camp reaching. Then you can create a proper "stay-healty-during-your-clears" smite for those who need or want it.

Making poacher actually a thing: The item in his current state is useless. It does NOTHING if you don't use it on an enemy camp, and that's bad. A community suggestion was to make it grant vision of the opposite enemy camp, the enemy not knowing being watched. In my opinion this is really good, since it reinforces counterjungling and control playstyle, which is not adequately supported right now. Also, the extra gold doesn't make a real difference. It would be really cool if poachers granted different, cool effects according to the camp stolen (example: stealing raptors gives you a free ward).

Vision-centered smite upgrade: this could be a nice addition for control junglers. It could give different types of wards based on the number of camps you kill, extra ward placement range, extra ward duration, extra vision range, or something like that. That's different from sightstone (which i believe is a fine item on junglers), because it connects the vision game with your role and performance as a jungler, with a superior early game focus (you have to wait your first 800g to buy sightstone, sacrificing combat stats and postponing core items).

Make the effectiveness of jungle items scale off the number of monsters killed: this reinforces in a healthy way the "farming strategy" that currently holds no place, because it does not give a direct advantage on gold and experience like feral flare did; this would put some farming junglers (WW, Yi, Shyvana etc) in a better spot. It also allows the balance team to tune effectively an item which is problematic only during the early game without making it useless in late game (balance lever). It could also help to solve the problem of laners taking smite items, since the item's power would be reduced for toplaners (another balance lever). Examples: cinderhulk grants 10-15% bonus health, +1% every camp slain, capping at 25-30%; stalker's blade deals +2 true damage per monster slain, capping at #tot and increases your movement speed +1 per monster slain, capping at #tot, on use. (Side note: I don't think there's anything wrong with laners going smite, UNLESS it's because it's an overpowered gimmick that limits the champion pool based on who can use it and who can deal with its users. That's, unfortunately, the current shyvana toplane smite situation. My suggestion isn't simply made to kill this option, but to make it a more interesting, deep choice. Just think at dynamic junglers: 2 guys run smite on your team, they both want to stack their item potential at max, but they cannot share the jungle: so they coordinate, switching their respective positions, as the situations calls for it; the enemy jungler is also more encouraged to invade, in order to make the opponent too low to go top, or to exploit a low-health toplaner that just decided to jungle)

Reduce the cost to switch between smite upgrades: right now the feature is just useless, for how unreasonably high the cost is. For all the good reasons for whom you introduced this option the first time, please bring it back for 50g, 75g or 100g. It was awesome and added A LOT of interesting strategies and game choices!

Make the jungler's gold income independent from the upgrades: right now everyone is almost pigeonholed into rushing smite upgrade and enchant if he doesn't want t lose a good chunk of extra gold. For the sake of build flexibility and variety, make the on-kill gold scale directly from machete passive with game time or number of camps cleared. This is also the best thing you can do in order to make the smite switching system really work!

Re-introduce the S4 jungle items extra gold mechanic on a pseudo-machete item: Do you remember the spirit items getting stacks over time to a cap, which were consumed when you killed a camp? In my opinion this could be great for chain ganking, a strategy I find extremely hard to make work in this meta. When i gank non-stop, I found myself being 3 levels down the midlaners, and really short on gold. If I don't succeed in making my lanes snowball, it's disaster. Old spirit items supported this strategy much better! You could give us the option to chose our favorite gold income mechanic: the current extra-gold-on-kill one or the old stack-and-consume one. They would be tied to two different items, hunter's machete and its new brother (everything actually building out on machete would build out on the new item indifferently). Perhaps, could the new item grant a little extra exp if the user's behind in levels?

More specific, solely jungle-focused champion buffs: You should go down the "nidalee path" more often: I'd like to see more changes aimed to turn junglers something different than watered-down versions of their lane selves; I'd like to see some unused, good potential junglers receive some love (example: Wukong. Right now he can't be played anywere. You could make his decoy heal him if it hits jungle creeps, or his passive work on large monsters); i'd like you to think out a niche in the jungle for those champions (example: right now toplane maokai > jungle maokai in every regard, and there's no reason to pick him in the jungle. You could make his passive recover some mana on jungle creeps, or you could perhaps decide that his niche in the jungle is: "the guy who landmines your fucking jungle with annoying little kamikaze seeds poking you down", and work on this aspect with buffs and changes that don't impact his toplane whatsoever).

Item variety!: last but not least, the real way to enhance variety in the game: improving itemization. Cinderhulk addition is the best example: it allowed a large pool of champion to enter the meta, changing (and improving, imo), the game. Now, I get what's your stand on items. You've got an item for the tanks, an item for the ad, an item for the ap, an item for the atkspeed-centered users. That's it. My suggestion is... go ham. Create a jungle item building from phage, one from sheen, one from cutlass, one from hunting guise, one from seeker's armguard, one from vampiric scepter, one from hexdrinker and so on; give us back juggernaut, solidifying its niche as an instant heavy hp item, opposed to cinderhulk, a late-game-supertank item (you could reduce cinderhulk flat hp and give juggernaut more hp and less cdr).** If everyone has the most fitting item for himself, or several possible options, nobody's performance is influenced by how well the champ can scale with the most powerful item available.** Right now jungle (and toplane) viability is dictated on how well you can scale off cinderhulk: if cinderhulk was nerfed on its flat-hp side (and reinforced on its tankier-if-tank side), it would be a healthier, more thought out choice; but then you would have to provide a tank-now item for the ones that want to be tanky as soon as possible, or don't want to go full tank at all in order to maximize the % health bonus (elise could be a good example of a champ who would take juggernaut over cinderhulk: why should elise be penalized for cinderhulk not being ideal on her, when we can create a different, not mutually exclusive item better responding to her needs?).

Those are my 2 cents on jungle. I hope I didn't bore any of you with this long read.

4 Comments

Byakuya Kuchiki5 votes

btw i think that was more than 2 cents, that was like your $5 on jungle

Byakuya Kuchiki2 votes

BUMPERINO I AGREE WITH 98% OF THIS PLEASE RITO SEE THIS

Jungle Lux God2 votes

I also have been playing the jungle a lot myself, and think you have a lot of interesting points in this post based on the jungle. I took the time to read your incredibly long post, and wanted to post my own thoughts about what you talked about.

**About adjusting Smite upgrade costs: ** if you remember back at the start of season 5, the Smite upgrades did cost less (350 instead of 450, if I remember correctly), and apparently Riot thought it wasn't healthy for it to be at a lower cost because of how powerful level 1 invades could swing the game for the jungler with the lower costs of the Smite upgrades. I also don't really think it is too necessary because you still get your jungle item with only needing 3 camps (one buff and two small camps at baseline, one camp and both buffs could probably work too). The only difference is buying your jungle item with extra potions, where it definitely could be a big change for some champs, but the aforementioned start with only three camps will get you level 3 at least, and most champions can either clear effectively at level 3 or cannot get through the first clear.

**On switching Smite upgrades: ** when switching Smite upgrades was free, players just chose whichever Smite upgrade was the best at the time. This was not a healthy strategy. If switching Smite upgrades does not have a reasonable cost, then players will go back to switching to whichever upgrade is the best at the particular time. 100 gold should be a reasonable enough cost for this I think, but I don't think the Smite switching cost is that necessary.

**On changing Ranger's Trailblazer: ** I'm torn on whether to agree with this point at all. Some junglers have enough of a problem clearing the jungle that they NEED to take Trailblazer in order to baseline clear the jungle, and changing Trailblazer from a "powerfarming" jungle item to a "fast-clearing" jungle item and adding a "high-sustain" jungle item may cause two different degrees of problems. On one end, you may have junglers that cannot clear the jungle effectively because they don't have the sustain AND clearing power that Trailblazer currently provides, and become unviable because they cannot clear effectively anymore. On the other end, you may have junglers that lose all relevancy by having their strengths being dominated by the strengths of the jungle items. Shyvanna can clear fast, but is she still worth running when Warwick can clear as fast with the new Traiblazer and still has more sustain? Likewise, Warwick has a lot of sustain, but is he still worth running when Shyvanna can sustain as well as having faster clears? I think changing Trailblazer might turn the jungle into more of "who is the best right now" and less of taking a champion's unique strengths into the jungle, and that isn't good. This might cause there to be less diversity in the jungle, at least with those who currently run Trailblazer (although I know I just mentioned champs that I think don't currently run Trailblazer on a regular basis).

**On Poacher's Knife and vision-centered Smite upgrades: ** Poacher's Knife is bad because its focus is based on an opportunity, not a playstyle. In its current state, Poacher's Knife cannot be supported because there is too much risk and not enough of a reward, but if the reward justifies the risk then this item will decide the game 10 minutes into the game simply by giving you a massive reward, AND you opponent losing a camp. Why not make it a vision-centered Smite upgrade? Vision in the enemy team's jungle helps you counterjungle better by giving better knowledge over where the enemy jungler is, but it could also be useful for protecting your own jungle or keeping vision over the river as well. Vision over where a camp is upon Smiting a monster in it would be a really cool option because it gives control junglers better vision over the map and gives counterjungling junglers more opportunities to counterjungle, if counterjungling actually can be considered a playstyle (which it isn't).

On item effectiveness on monster kills: I think this is a cool idea, but I'm not sure how good it could be implemented. I think this should be left off of the Smite upgrades because they determine how much you want to go into a particular playstyle. If you want to gank with a non-ganking jungler, you cannot afford to wait until you have cleared a half dozen camps after buying the item for your Chilling Smite slow/ms boost (no one runs if for the damage) to be relevant enough to allow you to gank 10 minutes into the game, but you can wait until you have cleared a dozen camps for your Cinderhulk % health bonus to be relevant.

**On gold mechanics: ** The old gold mechanics on the Season 4 items was removed because it too heavily favored certain playstyles over others. But what if the gold mechanics for each item were based off of the playstyle they were trying to support? Conservation stacks for Stalkers to support ganking but the bonus gold system that we currently have for Trailblazer to support powerfarming? Maybe the old Bounty Hunter passive on Skirmisher's that used to be on Spirit of the Elder Lizard and Spirit of the Spectral Wraith before they got changed to have the Conservation passive? Changing the gold upgrades to be dependent on time instead of item is a cool idea, but I'm not sure how much it would change the game. In most cases, upgrading Machete is the ideal build path regardless of the gold bonuses, while in other cases getting another item that isn't a Smite upgrade is so good that the gold loss doesn't matter (this is the case with some tank junglers that need the Immolate passive on Bami's Cinder in order to clear effectively). This would definitely be good, but I'm not sure how impactful it would be.

**On champion-specific buffs: ** Obviously this has been done before (the Nidalee change you mentioned is one of them, while Garen also got some jungle-exclusive buffs that certainly helped, although he certainly is not a meta-pick for the jungle), but I'm not sure that buffing champions for the jungle for the sake of helping some champions jungle is the best idea. If the champion can only be played jungle (ie. someone like Rammus) and the champion isn't that great in the jungle in the early game, then it would be appropriate to buff the champ, but if the champ can be played elsewhere (ie. someone like Annie), then there's no point in buffing the champion to be playable in the jungle. And before you say anything about Nidalee being fairly playable in the solo lanes, the changes Nidalee got for the jungle were not done to explicitly help her ability to jungle.

**On deep pools of jungle items: ** New jungle-centered items are cool, but adding new jungle items has a big cost: it makes it harder to learn to play the jungle. Right now, the jungle is not the easiest role to play, and with good reason: there are so many factors that go into jungling, such as managing jungle timers and buffs, knowing when/when not to gank, dealing with your laner's stupidity/lack of jungle knowledge, etc. Then you throw a bunch of other items into the mix, and suddenly it becomes a lot harder to play than it currently is. For experienced junglers, extra jungle items would be fantastic and make the jungle role a whole lot deeper, but for newer junglers the jungle would be a lot harder to understand how the jungle works that it may turn off a lot of players from learning the role. Just keep the new player experience in mind with this.

Sorry for my own long reply, but I felt I had to express my thoughts on the stuff you talked about.

GelsominoKiller1 votes

Thank you for your comment. A long post indeed requires a long reply.

About adjusting Smite upgrade costs: my idea here is to create a choice during your first clear: do i clear 3 camps and gank, or do i clear 5 camps and back, buying a combat item which will help me during my second clear (like a dagger), or during a countergank later? At the start of S5, i had this choice, and i liked the thing; right now, if i can gank, i gank. That's it.

On switching Smite upgrades: free switching was bad, i do agree. Is it super-necessary as a feature? No. But does it hurt anybody? Neither, meaning it's better for it to be functional, and not a noob trap. Think at this scenario: "I went stalker's, but my lanes are now pushed and i cannot gank: i'll switch to trailblazer for powerfarming, poacher if i want to bug the enemy jungler or vision smite for warding my lanes against enemy ganks". Those choices in my opinion truly make the jungle game deep and interesting. Right now you can only stick with what you've got and hope the situation is favorable to it.

On Trailblazer: i totally get your point, and you're not wrong. Shyvana farms fast but has no sustain, WW farms slow but has tons of sustain. Current trailblazer boosts clear speed AND sustain of both: the champion identity is preserved and nobody steps in the other's house. If we split trailblazer into 2 items, then shyvana with the sustain one = ww with the clear-fast one, and you pick what's better. But you're missing one thing: what about shyvana with the clear-fast one? She will retain her superiority in speed clear over ww, and she will be an absolute monster at that, something WW cannot be. The deal here is: do i enhance my strength or do i cover my weakness? Obviously if i decide to cover the weaknesses of all the champs, i get many jacks-for-all-trades and i can only pick the best. But i can also empower the good qualities of a champion, maintaining the weaknesses. I don't know if in the end this is a good idea, after all.

Poacher's knife: I do disagree here: currently counterjungling is an opportunity, that's true; but it used to be a playstyle, and i'd like to see it go back there. "Oh, enemy's bot. Imma steal them raptors". Current counterjungling is opportunistic and has zero risks: you do it because "why not". Instead playing around it requires a lot of thought, preparation, risk and investment: you need to deep ward the enemy jungle, be sure to not being spotted, keep track of his spawn timers and deny the right buff. Just the pressure of being counterjungled actively can be worth it, since the enemy will spend a lot on wards. I think the item should not give massive advantages since you're also putting behind your opponent, but it should for sure make the risk actually worth it.

Gold mechanics: I'll use two examples. I do play a lot of jungle Maokai. In S4 i did rush roa whenever i could, then go for quill coat and ancient golem. In s5 if i do that i'm paying a +200g tax for absolutely NO REASON. I don't see why i should be penalized for not rushing the proper jungle item riot wants me to rush, so i think extra gold tied to the upgrade should go. Also i enjoyed playing pantheon (or xin, or j4): his ganks are really strong, so i want to do it as much as i can. Then i cannot gank mid because i'm 3 levels behind, i can't clear because i've got no gold for items, and i can't keep up with the pace of the game anymore. So i'll spend the rest or the mach imploding every team fight hoping to place a cc on a carry. Again, is this a gamechanging improvement? Probably not, but for sure it helps doing things that currently aren't in a good spot... so... why not?

On item effectiveness on monster kills: I don't want an item "to become relevant" after a #tot of kills, this would be bad. My idea on stalker's blade: it is a really strong ganking tool but, as the game progresses, becomes less and less effective because in tf you want more speed and damage (or more slow). But you can't simply buff it, because it would break the early game. So you can add a slow-scaling mechanic you want to cap but don't really feel the hurry to do so: farming junglers will reach this point before the others, as a compensation for all the ganks they gave up, but the item's not meant to be useless unless fully stacked. The extra bonuses can be moderate. Or, if you want an item to not being desirable from toplaners, you can add a fast stacking-mechanic that caps more or less at 2-3 full clears: all junglers do that, often before closing the item itself, but toplaners don't.

On the item variety: i do get the "burden of knowledge" point, but i think having an healthy itemization environment is more important: maybe i've listed way too many upgrades, but i also think that more than one upgrade per class is strongly needed.

Champion buffs: again, why not? A champion that can be played in two positions is two champions, especially if it offers something unique to the role. Moreover, i find unfair to completely disregard a champion's role, balance-wise, because he can be played somewhere else. What would you tell to those who played hecarim in the jungle way before he became a toplaner, if he got straight nerfs who balanced him top but killed his already underperforming jungle? I was expecting this to happen, but current hecarim changes on the PBE reassured me: toplane nerfs are coupled with jungle only-buffs (oh god this infamous dmg reduction, i hated it so much), and that's exactly my idea of fair, healthy balance for multiple-roles champions.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by GelsominoKiller

@Riot Please give us an explanation on this worrisome statement.
Gameplay258 comments
261
votes
Unpopular opinion: don't buff tanks
Gameplay80 comments
144
votes
Teleport Nerf was uncalled for. And pointless
Gameplay24 comments
124
votes
"Sex sells" is legitimate as long as it does not hinder character identity/theme/coherence
Story, Art, & Sound175 comments
124
votes
Just tuning in to draw attention on the fact that...
Gameplay46 comments
101
votes
Non-Support tanks are finding success only with damage builds.
Gameplay63 comments
85
votes