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"Kog'Maw is a late game hyper carry"

NodirjonSattarov··5 votes·4,346 views

"Kog'Maw is a late game hyper carry. If your team works together, then you're sure to win regardless of how immobile, squishy, damage-less, useless he is!"

http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/kogmaw/adc at 47.27% win rate at 40+ minutes. http://champion.gg/champion/KogMaw/ADC at a 46.58% win rate 45 minutes.

Champions that have a better super late game than Kog'Maw: Miss Fortune: http://champion.gg/champion/MissFortune 51.03% win rate at 40+ minutes. Twitch: http://champion.gg/champion/Twitch/ADC 54.08% win rate at 40+ minutes. Vayne: http://champion.gg/champion/Vayne/ADC 56.75% win rate at 40+ minutes. Caitlyn: http://champion.gg/champion/Caitlyn/ADC 51.89% win rate at 40+ minutes. Jhin: http://champion.gg/champion/Jhin/ADC 48.95% win rate at 40+ minutes. Jinx: http://champion.gg/champion/Jinx/ADC 50.35% win rate at 40+ minutes. Sivir: http://champion.gg/champion/Sivir/ADC 52.79% win rate at 40+ minutes. Tristana: http://champion.gg/champion/Tristana/ADC 51.79% win rate at 40+ minutes. Draven: http://champion.gg/champion/Draven/ADC 48.65% win rate at 40+ minutes. Ashe: http://champion.gg/champion/Ashe/ADC 49.92% win rate at 40+ minutes. Lucian: http://champion.gg/champion/Lucian/ADC 47.68% win rate at 40+ minutes. Kalista: http://champion.gg/champion/Kalista/ADC 46.67% win rate at 40+ minutes.

You can't tell me Kog'Maw is a late game hyper carry. You can't tell me that teamwork is required for Kog'Maw to win the game. You can't tell me that Kog'Maw has the advantage late game.

Draven is an early game champion/lane bully with a better late game than Kog'Maw. Lucian is an early game champion/lane bully with a better late game than Kog'Maw. Jhin is an early game champion with a better late game than Kog'Maw. Kalista is a gutted champion with a better late game than Kog'Maw. Tristana was useless all season but has a better late game than Kog'Maw. Miss Fortune lacks the armor penetration build but has a better late game than Kog'Maw.

Riot buffed Rageblade as if the primary reason for it being nerfed in the first place was because Kog'Maw "warped" under-efficient items. They buffed BoRK as if 2% increase will make up for the cost and will provide usefulness in a meta full of "reworked", "outplayable" assassins.

Riot doesn't know what to do with Kog'Maw. As long as he has a >1% play rate they can ignore him until Assassins and jungle changes settle down. The problem has persisted for months now and when Riot implemented the R buff it effected Kog'Maw negatively. Not only can he not execute targets, it is a useless poke.

I'll tell you again and again, you've been had, you've been hoodwinked, you've been led astray, bamboozled.

22 Comments

Best Kog NA2 votes

He's no longer an ADC. He's a mage. ADC Kog'Maw is way too reliant on his team. Until something is changed Kog'Maw support is more viable than Kog'Maw ADC.

NodirjonSattarov1 votes

No where does it state that Kog'Maw is a mage. Riot doesn't want him to be a mage.

Eedat1 votes

Yet here we are

Best Kog NA1 votes

47% winrate and 35% role choice rate http://champion.gg/champion/KogMaw/ADC 55% winrate and 58% role choice rate http://champion.gg/champion/KogMaw/Middle

Riot isn't saying anything but the data is

NodirjonSattarov1 votes

Look at the play rate: .59%

That's 1 Kog'Maw AP game in every 165 games. He is played midlane because he is more viable there than botlane. It is simply an anomaly due to the lack of knowledge of the new assassins and his surprise factor. Same goes for Corki who shouldn't be doing well. Once again, the only reason why Kog'Maw is doing well midlane is because assassins are doing poorly and dominant mages aren't being played because of the play rate of the new assassins.

khorney1 votes

His ap scalings........reason he isn't anymore was when they reworked him to not have thenough attack speed boost and not now since they reworked fervor of battle . Time to take smite bot lane to get blood razor

NodirjonSattarov1 votes

Are you supposing that any champion with AP scalings (whether they're god awful like Kog'Maws AP Scalings) are considered mages?

khorney1 votes

Seeing all his moves scale off of ap as well as ad.

NodirjonSattarov1 votes

4 of his abilities scale of off AP but they scale terribly. Only 1 ability scales off of AD and its his ult that scaled off of bonus AD. It is the only decent scaling he has. This doesn't justify him being a mage though.

khorney1 votes

The only one that truly matters on him is his w active where it does %hp damage . It has to be the scaling it is because it would be broken op if it was higher . And his ultimate does double damage when the target is below certain hp not to mention it has no cd....

Carrie Pigeon1 votes

{quoted}

No where does it state that Kog'Maw is a mage. Riot doesn't want him to be a mage.

Look at his champion page on either the client or wiki it states Marksman/Mage. While Kog'Maw has some lackluster scalings you can easily compare them to Xeraths a mage with similar scalings. Xerath Q being a decently ranged poke through minions with 75% Scaling compared to Kog'Maws E a decently ranged poke through minions with a 70% scaling. Xerath E is a standard skillshot with a 45% scaling but has a stun while Kog'Maw has a standard skillshot on his Q with 50% scaling (and better base damage) but shreds armor and MR. Their Ws and Ults cannot be compared to easily as both Ws are very different in playstyle and while Xeraths ult does more damage early on it loses to a Kog'Maw ulti in damage when a champion is below 40% HP.

The only reason I compare him to xerath is to show similar scalings on most (I say most because Xerath ult has 47% AP scaling and Kog'maw ult has 25/50% AP scaling) of their abilities, their range, and both typically using ultimate to execute a target. While AP Kog'maw may seem a bit weak it is definitly more viable than our current AD Kog'Maw just due to how he was changed. I doubt Riot will find a healthy style for Kog'Maw for a while and he's likely not going to be looked at while champions like Kalista and Azir are in there present state being nerfed to all hell.

NodirjonSattarov1 votes

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't a champion considered a mage due to how much magic damage they do? About 40% of Kog'Maw's damage is magic damage but that doesn't make him a mage. I understand and know that his secondary is mage but I assure you that Riot doesn't want him that way. Another theory I have is that all spell weaving ADCs are mages (ie; Varus, Corki, Ezreal) because they require their spells to proc Sheen or tear upgrades.

I am well aware of Kog'Maw scalings. I think a major thing that separates him from being a decent midlaner and a very good one is his cooldowns. Q -8s W-17s E -12s R- 2-1s . Additionally, the cooldowns don't reduce with increased level. This is a key indication that he isn't supposed to be a mid-lane mage. It forces him to use his abilities, yes, but primarily use his auto attacks. This is what separates him from artillery champions like Velkoz and Xerath. Furthermore, his mage itemization is awfully limited. By limited I mean he needs tear on his first back or he will run out of mana. He builds that into Seraphs, followed by Rylias, both AP penetration items, AP penetration boots, and possibly Ludens (for the move speed). Kog'Maw doesn't need AP, he just needs mana and penetration. Cooldown isn't needed, which most mages get, because his ult is on a 1 second cooldown. If anything his lack of needing cooldowns is what makes him not a mage. He has the scalings of a mage, the damage of a mage, but because he doesn't need cooldowns to exert his DPS makes him anything but a mage.

I 100% agree that AP Kog is more viable than AD Kog'Maw. Why? Because he is able to make use of all his abilities (even if they have lengthy cooldowns) with the items he builds. Since all his abilities scale with AP, why would you even consider building AD? His ult scales with AD but hardly. They need to be below 40% health to do some real damage but since Kog'Maw doesn't build that much BONUS AD (130% Bonus AD when below 40% health) it really isn't much use. By late game you probably have what, 140 bonus AD? Which converts to 480 magic damage. Seems like alot? Not at all, when you incorporate base MR of the enemy ADC (suppose its 90MR) you only do 252 magic damage. I've had people get away from my "execute" ult and it just makes me question what Riot intends his ult to do.

Carrie Pigeon1 votes

{quoted}

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't a champion considered a mage due to how much magic damage they do? About 40% of Kog'Maw's damage is magic damage but that doesn't make him a mage. I understand and know that his secondary is mage but I assure you that Riot doesn't want him that way. Another theory I have is that all spell weaving ADCs are mages (ie; Varus, Corki, Ezreal) because they require their spells to proc Sheen or tear upgrades.

I am well aware of Kog'Maw scalings. I think a major thing that separates him from being a decent midlaner and a very good one is his cooldowns. Q -8s W-17s E -12s R- 2-1s . Additionally, the cooldowns don't reduce with increased level. This is a key indication that he isn't supposed to be a mid-lane mage. It forces him to use his abilities, yes, but primarily use his auto attacks. This is what separates him from artillery champions like Velkoz and Xerath. Furthermore, his mage itemization is awfully limited. By limited I mean he needs tear on his first back or he will run out of mana. He builds that into Seraphs, followed by Rylias, both AP penetration items, AP penetration boots, and possibly Ludens (for the move speed). Kog'Maw doesn't need AP, he just needs mana and penetration. Cooldown isn't needed, which most mages get, because his ult is on a 1 second cooldown. If anything his lack of needing cooldowns is what makes him not a mage. He has the scalings of a mage, the damage of a mage, but because he doesn't need cooldowns to exert his DPS makes him anything but a mage.

I 100% agree that AP Kog is more viable than AD Kog'Maw. Why? Because he is able to make use of all his abilities (even if they have lengthy cooldowns) with the items he builds. Since all his abilities scale with AP, why would you even consider building AD? His ult scales with AD but hardly. They need to be below 40% health to do some real damage but since Kog'Maw doesn't build that much BONUS AD (130% Bonus AD when below 40% health) it really isn't much use. By late game you probably have what, 140 bonus AD? Which converts to 480 magic damage. Seems like alot? Not at all, when you incorporate base MR of the enemy ADC (suppose its 90MR) you only do 252 magic damage. I've had people get away from my "execute" ult and it just makes me question what Riot intends his ult to do.

I can kind of see where you're coming from however the comment saying "About 40% of Kog'Maws damage is magic" is a bit odd because that's considering a standard Kog'Maw build of say Triforce Runaans IE (I really don't know what AD Kog'maws build) however a more AP focused build is likely going to do 80% Magic damage (Or at least varients I've seen staying at max range).

Stating his reliance on tear is a bit awkward because in doing so you are saying people like Swain or Karthus cannot be effecient mages because they are almost required to get a Rod of Ages or Tear to have mana that can keep up with their costs. The needing of CDR is another issue I have with your comments but the thing about it is is that not everyone needs CDR to be an effecient mage. Looking at Heimerdinger, Karthus, Fiddle, Elise, Kennen, and Aurelion Sol (All Primary Mages) all don't demand CDR in their kits. While a bit of CDR here and there is nice for say more Karthus ults or more Elise stuns it simply isn't needed and saying "If anything his lack of needing cooldowns is what makes him not a mage." is a bit baffling.

NodirjonSattarov1 votes

AP focused build is likely going to do 80% Magic damage

If you build AP, you will naturally do more magic damage. I was explaining that the role Kog'Maw is supposed to occupy (ADC/Marksmen) results in 40% magic damage. If you never auto during an entire match of course you'll have nearly 100% magic damage. However, Kog'Maw is supposed to auto, his W encourages him to auto, the items he is "supposed" to get forces him to auto (sheen, BoRK, Rageblade).

Swain or Karthus cannot be effecient mages because they are almost required to get a Rod of Ages or Tear

I don't know how or why you're comparing Kog'Maw to Karthus and Swain. Both Swain and Karthus have mana return abilities that help them sustain in terms of mana when Kog'Maw does not. The reason why they build Tear/Rod is because of how low their mana costs are and how efficient they can proc Tear as well as how it synergizes with mana returning abilities. What would Karthus and Swain build instead of Rod/Tear? Karthus doesn't need CDR and neither does Swain because they have abilities that are on an extremely low cooldown. The reason why Tear is a necessity on Kog'Maw is because 1) Kog'Maw has high mana costs (especially if you spam ult) 2) provides a shield 3) Kog'Maw doesn't scale well with AP, so all he needs is mana and move speed.

the thing about it is is that not everyone needs CDR to be an effecient mage

If you look at what I had said, I specifically said that Kog'Maw doesn't have abilities that are reduced with level besides his Ult. I said it this way because he is a champion that requires him to auto, he has an ability that increases the range and aa damage.

it simply isn't needed and saying "If anything his lack of needing cooldowns is what makes him not a mage."

Classify what is and isn't a mage in your own words since I seem to have an evident misunderstanding.

Wind Whistler1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Best Kog NA,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=12eEkidE,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-11-19T20:39:35.460+0000)

He's no longer an ADC. He's a mage. ADC Kog'Maw is way too reliant on his team. Until something is changed Kog'Maw support is more viable than Kog'Maw ADC.

He's not a very good mage, either, you know.

Best Kog NA1 votes

A 55% WR says otherwise

Wind Whistler1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Best Kog NA,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=12eEkidE,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2016-11-19T20:57:38.190+0000)

A 55% WR says otherwise

I don't know how. His numbers are all lower than they were pre rework.

Rebonack2 votes

I think it's hilarious that all the hyper-carries that aren't Kog are doing pretty great right now.

Obviously it isn't the meta if Twitch and Vayne are both amazing.

The problem is that Riot wants Kog to fill two different roles at the same time (somehow). They want him to be able to function as his team's primary (or only) damage source, which would require him to have a godly mid-game and a great late game. They also want him to be a late game hyper carry, which requires him to have an insane late game whilst being fairly self-sufficient so he can work as an auto-win clause if the game goes long.

Both of those things were briefly true with the remade Kog, but then Riot wrecked him for doing exactly what they wanted him to.

Whoops.

Eedat1 votes

AP Kog is more fun anyway

NodirjonSattarov1 votes

Oh do you frequently play AP Kog? No, you don't

It doesn't matter what is more "fun", Teemo is considered "fun" but is unhealthy. Singed proxy farming is considered "fun" but is considered unhealthy. AP Kog'Maw is considered "fun" but is unhealthy for the game. Riot specifically said his play style is unhealthy. Enjoy your time playing AP Kog'maw because Riot has planned to nerf him if he came back into popularity, which he is. Not that you play AP Kog'Maw though, so you have nothing to worry about.

Best Kog NA2 votes

From a person playing AP Kog'maw a decent bit. He's REALLY really fun to play AP

IPromiseTomorrow1 votes

Yea Riot kinda gave him the cold shoulder. They did a "fix" to his rework with no good results. Why they aren't helping him idk.

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