id rather go back to juggernaut over cinderhulk

Very Hard Engage·Jan 31, 2017·3 votes·607 views

open up tenacity as a tank stat again and revitalize what a tank is supposed to do for a team. peel/intiate/protect.

i recognize that would further slow their already terrible clear speeds, but straight up need counters to the hard damage meta you've enforced.

"just buy merc treds" but i need tabi's for the full enemy AD team and i still need tenacity to do my job.

please also reintroduce mastery - Enchanted armor: increases armor/magic resist by 2.5/5/7.5/10%. to counteract all the direct bonus %damage addition.

24 Comments

DunkinNoobsJan 31, 20173 votes

Ah yes, let's make tank junglers even more garbage. Good idea OP. Literally no one would build this jungle item; they'd all just rush Sunfire instead.

Very Hard EngageJan 31, 20172 votes

so what you're saying a tank is only viable if it can clear the jungle quickly and farm it out by dealing tons of damages.

ok good logic.

except one little problem.

thats literally the exact opposite of what a tank is supposed to do for a team.

what if i told you you could clear the jungle without a burn effect, simply by riot reverting all of their jungle changes since season 4, and still be on par with every other jungler +/- 10 seconds, except udyr/yi/shyv.

Big LincolnJan 31, 20172 votes

tank jungles are supposed to tank the creeps and let their team do the damage? lmao

the only good tank jungles are the ones with good clears. why do you think nautilus isn't jungle anymore despite having a ridiculously good kit?

DunkinNoobsJan 31, 20173 votes

{quoted}

so what you're saying a tank is only viable if it can clear the jungle quickly and farm it out by dealing tons of damages.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Tank junglers are only viable when they have clear speeds comparable to carry junglers. When they don't, they simply get run over by the Lee Sins, Graves, Kha's and Nidalee's of the world. Clear speed and safety is the biggest determining factor in whether or not a champion can jungle, and when tank junglers have bad clears; they're garbage. It's not a coincidence that so many junglers rush Tiamat and that Runic Echoes gives AOE magic damage and MS: Clear speed is just that fucking important. You can't clear with the big boys? You can't jungle. End. Of. Story.

Very Hard EngageJan 31, 20171 votes

and tank junglers had comparable clear speeds back in season 4

DunkinNoobsJan 31, 20173 votes

Did you watch high level play in Season 4 at all? It was Lee, Elise, and Khazix, every goddamn game, with the occasional Vi or J4. Tank junglers were garbage across the board because they couldn't keep up with the real junglers. Hell, the only time tank junglers have ever been meta at high levels of play was during release Cinderhulk precisely because it gave those champions competitive clear speeds.

Very Hard EngageJan 31, 20172 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsKfhreywNM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZpYKXQ0vAw

it was those 3 specific champs because they had amazing ganks, 2v1 potential and early game tower dives. without the massive damage inflation we currently have, a tank jungler showing up to gank the enemy might still escape even with a prime flank. you really dont remember at all.

they were constantly chased back to tower and then finished under their tower and that left the jungler having to get out, which khaz elise and lee all can do.

DunkinNoobsJan 31, 20172 votes

Congratulations, they have similar first clears. Guess what happens after the first clear? Lee goes back and buys AD while Naut goes back and buys health. Lee finishes his second clear a good 15-20 seconds faster than Naut, and the gap only grows once he finishes elder lizard.

Not that we need to look back to season 4 to see this. Just look at last season. The best junglers for Season 6: Gragas, Graves, Nidalee, and Kindred. The latter 3 all had god tier clear speed and early dueling while Gragas still had above average clearspeed and broken tier early ganks with E-Flash. The junglers with the best clear speed almost invariably rise to the top and the ones that clear slowly sink to the bottom. The only exceptions to this are champions like Shyvana that possess so few other tools to make her a good jungler that her fast clearspeed is much less relevant.

Very Hard EngageJan 31, 20171 votes

but the flip side is you pick your tank jungler for later game team fights and coordiation. in addition that naut is in prime position to gank, that lee not so much, hes lost quite a bit of health.

you pick your early game AD champ for your ganks and snowball potential.

and the late game never comes around thanks to all the snowballs we have.

tanks dont need damage to be relevant, they need consistency. you pick a tank to outscale and later punish that lee sin, but that never happens these days.

team CC doesn't mean jack when fights are over with a single lee kick taking out your carries.

DunkinNoobsJan 31, 20172 votes

The only time tank junglers are good is when they also do damage. Why do you think Sejuani was so busted back in 5.5? She did absolutely insane amounts of damage while still reaping all the benefits of being a tank. Why do you think Tank Gragas jungle is a thing? Because he can do the job of a tank AND do damage. Why do you think Poppy is so busted? Because she's impossible to kill, AND she does tons of damage. Tanks that don't do damage suck ass and don't get picked, no matter their role. Even Nautilus, the kind of endless CC, only gets picked when he does good damage.

Very Hard EngageJan 31, 20173 votes

and why do you think its relevant for your jungler to be the one to carry a game when historically they have earned 3/5ths gold what any laner would and were always 1 or 2 levels down in relation to their solo laners for the purpose of impacting other lanes and creating a ? ? ? on the map.

if you look at recent stats junglers have now become on par with carries in terms of gold and exp.

i absolutely agree, in the current jungle, lee khaz elise can all get really big and gain quite a bit from their own jungle that tanks just cant get same value no matter what they try.

however back when both the tank and the carry jungler were down in exp/gold it was very reasonable to play a tank in the jungle because the enemy lee just wouldn't have that giant lead over you even when power farming. and when they did powerfarm you too had the opportunity to freely gank without fear of a countergank because you maintained a higher health pool than they did.

DunkinNoobsJan 31, 20172 votes

Riot decided to make the jungle more equal to other roles by giving them more gold and exp. That means you need to have the clear speed necessary to keep up in order to be a viable jungler. Whether you like it or not, that's the direction that Riot has taken the jungle the past 3 years. Certainly better than being the teams second support, imo.

Very Hard EngageJan 31, 20172 votes

and that decision right there killed tank junglers and enforced damage from everyone or get gimped in team gold.

repeat after me - "tanks do not deal damage, they provide initiation, peel, and damage mitigation"

"riot now demands tanks also deal damage, the ones that dont just handicap the team."

fundamentally undermining the class.

DunkinNoobsJan 31, 20172 votes

Tanks have always needed to do damage to be relevant. There's no "now" about it. There's a reason that you didn't see tanks in season 4 at high levels of play; instead you saw Shyvana, Renekton, and Mundo, champions that could fulfill a similar role to tanks while still doing damage. Tanks don't see play at higher levels unless they also do damage, and this has always been true.

AptestJan 31, 20171 votes

more support junglers = more space for me to full-damage it with brand support. more full damage brand "support" = more space for you to play a jungle support or jungle tank.

so i think we can both get on that horse.

AptestJan 31, 20172 votes

im considering chiming in but you're saying everything i want to say.

In addition to this, you can position your tank in top lane and have your late game hyperscaling tank from there.

ErockandrollJan 31, 20171 votes

{quoted}

so what you're saying a tank is only viable if it can clear the jungle quickly and farm it out by dealing tons of damages.

ok good logic.

except one little problem.

thats literally the exact opposite of what a tank is supposed to do for a team.

what if i told you you could clear the jungle without a burn effect, simply by riot reverting all of their jungle changes since season 4, and still be on par with every other jungler +/- 10 seconds, except udyr/yi/shyv.

Tanks simply need that base level of damage regardless. (But they don't get massive damage from those items)

Jungle Tanks need it to keep up in farm, and in tern in levels and gold, otherwise resulting in the problem I just mentioned.

Top lane Tanks need a level of wave clear to prevent getting horrendously pushed in, by opponents who have more damage and push the waves faster.

Literally the only Tank class who doesn't need a base level of damage, is the support.

This isn't pre season 4 where you could mitigate the farm deficit with Heart of Gold or Philosopher stone. You need the ability to farm effectively.

Very Hard EngageJan 31, 20171 votes

scroll down and watch the 2 videos i posted.

lee finishes his jungle at 4:11

naut finishes his jungle at 4:05

BluePolarizerFeb 1, 20171 votes

Naut had higher E damage back then. His damage was needed heavily in season 5.

ErockandrollJan 31, 20172 votes

If your prioritizing this over clear speed, then you have completely forgotten the lesson that we learned concerning clear speed.

That lesson, is that clear speed is a bad balancing lever. Simply put it, the champion with the fastest clear speed will out farm and out level their opponents, allowing them to bully their opponents. I would not give up the flame passive for anything at this point, not even for tendency. And franckly, it would probably gut every Tank Jungler, except maybe the few who had strong HP ratios in their kit.

Also, I think the tendency is over rated at that point. Often enough, if I find myself against an AD heavy team, I can trade Mercs for ninja tabi, and still do my job.

Very Hard EngageJan 31, 20171 votes

consider this, if your items are tanky its still viable even when levels behind because its being built for its utility and not its damage.

its just a question of do the damage dealers see this much value from the item and build it too and then abuse their clear speeds when ahead.

back in the day jungle camps stayed weaker in relation to the average teams level so it could still be farmed out when behind in level, but this lead to invades and more risky/snowbally play from the enemy team.

MonkeyMadnessJan 31, 20172 votes

I disagree. It would be more prudent to simply reduce damage across the board, which would be very easy to do if Riot wasn't so oblivious to the fact that MASTERIES ARE VIRTUALLY THE SINGULAR CAUSE OF THE PROBLEM.