@Meddler: What are your thoughts on a Champion who uses two resource bars?

darkdill·Apr 5, 2015·29 votes·12,452 views

The Demon Hunter in Diablo 3 uses two different resources: Hatred and Discipline. Hatred fuels the DH's offensive abilities, while Discipline is for defensive, evasive, and utility abilities, creating some very interesting gameplay.

Do you think it'd be possible at all to create a Champion who uses two different resource bars? Maybe one is mana, while the other is a unique resource that applies to the Champion itself. Just a thought.

91 Comments

RiotMeddlerApr 5, 201533 votes

Could certainly be done of course, I'd be inclined to start at the outcomes end of things though. Define what decisions and gameplay a 2 resource bar champion allows you to offer that you couldn't do with one resource bar (or one plus an ammo system). If that looks compelling could be worth an investigation, if not it's probably just adding extra complexity for low depth.

darkdillApr 5, 20153 votes

Cool. It's just something to think about.

RiotMeddlerApr 5, 201519 votes

Yeah, those sort of questions make for great thought exercises.

trial1Apr 6, 20151 votes

Is it possible to have extra bar for another resource ? The UI, it perfectly fine with only 2 bars ( HP and resource ). Plus the bars on top of a character, fit with only 2 bars.

darkdillApr 6, 20153 votes

They could split the resource bar in half, with one side being resource A, and the other side being resource B.

eric is riceApr 6, 20153 votes

Why not use an equilibrium concept, where your ult creates two different forms that use separate energies or some sort. And the more you use of one stance, it becomes weaker so you are forced to change to the other different form. One form could act as a more bursty, but slow champion and the other acting as a high moblity, but consistent damage. You would have to switch between the two or some sort. Not sure, just ideas

Klax002saurApr 5, 20152 votes

Abilities could be empowered to do 1 of 2 different outcomes based on the "balance" of the champion. Balance being determined by the difference between the resources and such. One form could benefit highly from AD, while the other benefits highly from AP making a dual spec the best choice unless you wanted to focus a single form for some odd reason.

The5lackerApr 5, 20156 votes

Stance based champion where consuming one resource fuels the other, so players are able to generate a constant barrage by switching stances when they need to.

delonixApr 6, 20155 votes

You could do this with a single resource bar. One stance fill the bar, the other stance depletes it.

The5lackerApr 6, 20151 votes

But what happens when the stance that fills the bar...fills the bar? It's not like champions can't use abilities that generate health or mana when they're at health or mana.

delonixApr 6, 20153 votes

If I understand correctly, with two resource bars, the champ would eventually run out of a resource from staying in one stance and would have to switch to the other stance. With one resource bar, it would be like Rumble, the champ would no longer be able to use abilities at full resource in the generation stance.

Of course, it could be better for gameplay to let one stance go on forever, but it's definitely possible for a single resource bar to accomplish exactly what two resource bars would in this situation.

Spacesuit SpiffApr 6, 20151 votes

Rumble . Just have a tooltip that says "can't use these abilities at maximum resource".

The5lackerApr 6, 20151 votes

No, he has a tooltip that says "At Max Heat you're silenced temporarily and gain a buff."

DreadlocksApr 6, 20151 votes

This sounds like a cool idea. To expand on this thought. How about... after filling one resource bar it gets stored away adding power to an ability (kind of like rengar) however you can store up to say 5 resource bars making the ability really powerful, the trade off being a longer cool down the stronger/more charges, the ability had.. I would say linking this to a champions ultimate would be kind of neat. Maybe a horrible idea but just a thought.

edit: perhaps it gains stacks based on CS? kind of like sion only you can release the "CS" as damage...

The5lackerApr 6, 20154 votes

That is not an idea that has been mentally put into the game. Think about how playing that would work: How long would it take to get that one good ability? How needlessly complex as this? Does this actually promote any sort of interesting playstyle, or is it just layers upon layers of needless complexity that would inevitably gate the champion's power?

No, if you want to manage a complex resource, there has to be a greater mechanical and thematic reason for it, not just "wouldn't it be cool if?" For example, the idea I've toyed with is a single bar that holds 200 units of resource divided between two diametrically opposed resources. Lets call them...Order and Chaos. Then we have a champion who switches stances between abilities that utilize Order (Defensive, CC related abilities) and abilities that use Chaos (Aggressive, highly mobile abilities.) Whenever an ability consumes Chaos, it generates an equal amount of Order for the other stance to use, and visa versa. Simple enough for any player to pick up and immediately understand, but deep enough to allow for a variety of playstyles. Simple yet deep is the penultimate goal of design.

CubedJusticeApr 6, 20151 votes

The problem with a bar like the one you described is that it would influence a hit and run tactic, which would suck to play against. It needs some toying in that way, but it's a neat idea.

DapperinoCappuccApr 6, 20151 votes

Not necessarily. I'm imagining it as a sort of Irelia for Order and Zed for Chaos. Rather than explaining deeper I'll just vaguely run over the idea I have.

Main form is order because of its defensive stats or whatever. It's good at keeping you alive. When you run out of Order you need to go for damage so you switch to Chaos for mobility and damage, get the damage off, and switch back to Order in order (lel) to stay alive long enough for a second or third round of Chaos in order to be successful.

While in Chaos, your Chaos bar should be automatically depleting over time (filling up your Order). This should start 2 seconds after changing form and is stopped by damaging enemy champions. This is to prevent the player from HAVING to all in the enemy champion(s) to regain Order (lel yet again) BUT isn't necessary. It all depends on how healthy the kit is. My understanding being that it'll be like Rengar where you can't stack a resource without damaging something. And while I suppose one could go into the jungle for a Raptor buffet I like the idea of waiting out the Order form in order to strike the Chaos form. Thinking back on this after writing ahead I think that both bars should be depleting and, upon reaching 0, should force a transformation.

Champion has 0 MR / Armor

Order: Brand level mobility. MR/Armor is doubled. Gain 1 Order Stack (idk) on damaging an enemy with an ability or auto attack. This stack grants armor/mr per stack. Low stickiness and no real ranged abilities, but I'd like to see something ala a mini Janna ult that could be used to keep order via peeling for someone (including yourself). Could even have a short delay for added counterplay.

Chaos: Lucian level mobility. Walks to charge up ala Statikk Shyv and then can cast the ability. Very sticky but in a grab-release fashion. I'd like to think that champions should be able to "get away" from this "cat" of sorts chasing them down via some sort of trickery or quick reflexes. Any champion should be able to do this. Perhaps whenever one is damaged by Chaos they're given a short burst of movement speed or are launched in a direction that they can choose by quickly clicking (or by default simply ala Condemn if no player action is taken). Don't much care for this iteration, though. I DO like that it CREATES Chaos in fights. By adding Chaos to fights you make things more wild by more or less throwing enemies around (albeit wherever they want to go).

Idk. It's very rough and I think I could figure out a proper kit with enough time. Woke up at 5:30am to mice though so glorious traps have been set and I'm still very tired. Adrenaline's wearing off.

Edit: Just had a thought: What if this is instead made to be a sort of anti-dive champion. Like she/he just curls up to the ADC and pushes enemies away by "pouncing" on them a lot. Similar to Alistar but.. actually that sounds pretty bad. Nevermind. Too tired. xD Alistar with super low CD headbutt = not a good time.

CubedJusticeApr 6, 20151 votes

I see. That's much better than the way I perceived it. I had seen it as a sort of a run up "punch pow whack" dash away sort of thing, and either you'd have a broken amount of resource, so it doesn't limit you at all, or you'd have to switch between creating distance between you and the enemy, and closing the gap, which sounded weird and not fun. I like your idea much better.

LittleBlastApr 6, 20157 votes

I feel like it would be good on Nidalee. Cougar using energy and Human using mana.

eric is riceApr 6, 20151 votes

I'm too scared of AD Nidalee split push coming back qq

Linna ExcelApr 6, 20151 votes

How about a different bar for different forms? IE Shyvana only gets rage in her dragon form but is resourceless in human, Elise has a spider only resource, energy perhaps, Nidalee uses fury in cat form, and things like that.

This seems the most graceful way of adding a second bar without over-complicating things.

AMYS GRAVEApr 6, 20151 votes

OK, start with the outcome. A hybrid champ that wants to alternately cast abilities and auto attack in order to balance their dual resources. I think fury/energy is the best combo that i can think of where being out of combat for a short time resets both. While in combat your fury builds up while your energy gets expended.

If your missing energy is more than twice the fury you've generated then you can't cast abilities, but your AA do more damage, consuming some fury. Conversely if your fury is more than twice your missing energy then your AA deal reduced damage but your abilities get empowered, returning some energy. This way you can't play as a purely AD auto-attacker or a purely AP caster because then your two resources would become imbalanced. The depth comes from this resource management and choosing if you want empowered AA or empowered abilities at the expense of the other giving the champion higher burst, or higher dps. The nice thing is that the champion would not be able to have both at any given time, keeping them from becoming stupid OP as teamfights go on, while remaining strong either bursting with abilities or dot over the course of the teamfight.

The ideal play would be to keep these two resources in balance and/or briefly prioritize one over the other.

Thoughts?

IllumanatiObamaApr 6, 20151 votes

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/U9cU4lgw-changes-to-aatroxs-w-ability-casts-and-basic-attacks-charge-up-w-passive

Hey, Meddler, I know this out of context with the thread but what would you think of these changes on Aatrox? Here's a link if you are curious.

To stay in context, how would one implement 2 resource bars for a champion? One that comes to mind when it comes to using two resources is Olaf who uses mana on his Q and W and health for his E.

PineappleReduxApr 9, 20151 votes

Just to pop in a mechanic from another game (Elsword) they're two characters with a pretty cool resource bar.

The mechanic is known as Way of the Sword (WoTS) and it can be filled with red (destruction) or blue (vitality). Certain skills (destruction skills) consume destruction and gather vitality while vitality skills do the opposite (consume vitality and produce destruction). The aura doesn't kick into effect until the bar fills either way. At which point, the character glows briefly and the bar turns shiny. Remember that this is ONE bar, not two bars.

Once the bar turns shiny, the respective aura takes place along with the skill buffs. A fully charged destruction meter grants 100% crit on certain attacks as well as 100% crit on destruction skills. A fully charged vitality meter grants massively reduced CDs and mana costs on vitality skills. After the meter is charged fully, that aura can no longer be gathered until it's fully depleted.

If you use a destruction skill while the destruction meter is charging, it depletes it slightly (but the skill isn't buffed, as the meter didn't fill all the way)

I don't think I explained it very well, so I'll put it in a bullet point form:

Mechanic known as WoTS takes the form of a special resource bar
There is one bar
It can be filled with Destruction or Vitality
Destruction skills charge vitality and consume destruction. Vitality does opposite.
Once the bar is filled, a special buff is granted based on what aura it's charged with. The bar also glows, and that aura can no longer be gathered until the bar is fully depleted (Ex: If I charged destruction all the way and consumed a bit, vitality wouldn't charge the destruction bar until I consumed all of it).
Destruction grants 100% crit on certain attacks and destruction skills, vitality grants massively reduced CD and mana costs on vitality skills
If a destruction skill is used while the destruction bar is in the process of charging, it depletes slightly but the skill isn't buffed.

In Elsword, it does offer a lot of fun strategy, as a large part of mastering the character is knowing when and how to charge each aura effectively.

I realize that the effects of the bar in Elsword might (or would) be insane in LoL, I'm just putting them here for reference.

YumekazeApr 5, 20153 votes

I know this is a stretch, but doesn't Akali use "Essence of Shadow"s on top of Energy?

darkdillApr 5, 20154 votes

That's not really two bars, though. That's just Energy plus an Ammo system.

YumekazeApr 5, 20151 votes

True, true XD What about Mana and Health being two resource bars? A champion who drains his own life-energy, whilst also needing mana to cast spells would be interesting

The5lackerApr 5, 20156 votes

I'd much rather see a Mana-based caster who can substitute Health for Mana if needed.

LoL Ergo UrgotApr 5, 20153 votes

{quoted}

I'd much rather see a Mana-based caster who can substitute Health for Mana if needed.

In skyrim, there was an alteration spell that allowed one to drain their own health for magika (mana). It made for a fun play style.

The5lackerApr 6, 20152 votes

I actually had an older champion concept who could expend Health if he lacked adequate mana for his spells, and his ult was a toggle that radically amped up his spells but caused them to cost Health on top of their mana cost.

Good times...

RiotMeddlerApr 6, 201514 votes

Oh, nice, we kicked around that same idea (Passive: Spend health instead of mana when OOM) a year or two ago for a champion that never went anywhere. Imagine we'll give it a another try at some point, offers some cool gameplay and great opportunities for strong thematic connections. Guessing if we do find it a home it'll be on a beserker (champs that gain bonuses for being low on health) of some sort.

FeelinTheAsterApr 6, 20156 votes

{quoted}

Oh, nice, we kicked around that same idea (Passive: Spend health instead of mana when OOM) a year or two ago for a champion that never went anywhere. Imagine we'll give it a another try at some point, offers some cool gameplay and great opportunities for strong thematic connections. Guessing if we do find it a home it'll be on a beserker (champs that gain bonuses for being low on health) of some sort.

So... Olaf?

RiotMeddlerApr 6, 201511 votes

I'd be more inclined to try it on a squishy, ranged champ. Imagine a moderate range mage with high mana costs, who, once they run OOM, has a real tension about how many extra casts they can afford to get off (how low can you go?). Like an offensive focused Soraka in some regards.

{quoted}

I would say more of a "Blood Mage" sort of diabolical character. "Dark Pacts" and whatnot.

Thematically that's the sort of space I'd start exploring from yeah, though probably not just straight blood mage given we've already got one of those.

TiberiusAudleyApr 6, 20154 votes

What about an actual Pyrophoenix... instead of health/blood... FIRE.

ArchangelN7Apr 6, 20152 votes

Y'know...Aatrox has been a little lonely lately. Wouldn't mind another Darkin being added to the mix. c:

SociopathFriendApr 6, 20153 votes

True... you already have a blood mage Vladimir and a dark knight Aatrox Mordekaiser ... it's a shame League doesn't have demons or anything of that ilk.

BlackquillApr 6, 20153 votes

Tbh i see Aatrox more as a demon than a dark knight.

Ariel the CruelApr 6, 20152 votes

I'm just going to kick a dead horse here...

But this seems to border on Old Karma. And if I recall, one of the reasons for her ~~deletion~~ rework was that Riot felt that her health gambling (with passive) was unhealthy (suddenly, W2).

How would this be different?

Linna ExcelApr 6, 20151 votes

Wouldn't a blood mage go far into Vlad's thematic territory and gamplay mechanics?

Also, soraka already has this and I hate it about her new rework.

red panda zApr 7, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I'd be more inclined to try it on a squishy, ranged champ. Imagine a moderate range mage with high mana costs, who, once they run OOM, has a real tension about how many extra casts they can afford to get off (how low can you go?). Like an offensive focused Soraka in some regards.

Thematically that's the sort of space I'd start exploring from yeah, though probably not just straight blood mage given we've already got one of those.

The idea of a high risk high reward mage who can benefit from lower health is strikingly similar to Karma's old Passive. For those that don't know or remember, it granted her bonus AP as her health went down. It was great when you played her well but, if memory serves, was really challenging to balance and was ultimately one of the things that caused her dramatic rework.

I think the biggest issue was that there wasn't really counter play other than "Ignore Karma". It inspired less skilled players to play too dangerously and die when they should've backed, and allowed experienced Karma masters (however few there may have been) to steamroll rather early in the game.

JamnonApr 8, 20151 votes

Would you consider it on Olaf ? He feels like a beserker champ. Feels thematically appropriate given his passive. If put on another champ I would worry that this champ might step on Olafs toes.

NorthernDruidApr 6, 20153 votes

Soraka has two casting resources at least, Mana and Health.

She just doesn't have an extra bar.

The5lackerApr 5, 20152 votes

Someone just got back from playing Diablo 3.

darkdillApr 5, 20156 votes

Does that really matter?

The5lackerApr 6, 20151 votes

No, just noting that you weren't exactly subtle about it.

DreamspitterApr 6, 20153 votes

{quoted}

No, just noting that you weren't exactly subtle about it.

Well he point blank referenced the game by name.

SecretAgentHulkApr 6, 20152 votes

Yes, occasionally some of us will play other video games than League.

v good pupperApr 6, 20152 votes

It could be a really neat starting point for a Lux rework, novice mage pushing herself to beyond the normal limit to cast challenging spells

darkdillApr 6, 20153 votes

Ehh, Lux doesn't need a rework. She's got a good place in terms of what she does and who she is. All she needs is some QoL changes and a reduction to the cost of her E.

If anything, your idea should be for a new Champion.

v good pupperApr 6, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Ehh, Lux doesn't need a rework. She's got a good place in terms of what she does and who she is. All she needs is some QoL changes and a reduction to the cost of her E.

If anything, your idea should be for a new Champion.

iirc Lux was getting a rework at some point, at least character wise. Just thought it might fit her