From the comments on your "rework reversion" post, it seems that there is a significant outcry for the ult to be reverted as well in order to bring back AP Kog'Maw. I dunno anything about it but apparently it was a lot of fun, and I think if League needs anything at this point in its life, it's more fun. Maybe listen on this one?
Eedat44 votesPeople don't realize that he gains range on his ult per level so they complain about level 16 AP Kog. They won't admit how insanely vulnerable he is in lane or in general or that he sacrifices a ton of early game strength for his late game power. Or that the ramping mana costs prevent him from spamming it without going OOM insanely fast. Or that he has no form if hard CC or escape. I mean even Xerath has a stun and Ziggs has an escape
Dengeden3 votesAnd Kog stacks HP and is a better duelist thanks to W
Eedat28 votesThese people crack me up.
"AP Kog is a great duelist"
Wtf am I reading lol
ABSINTHEged4 votesOld AP Kog with a railai's could fuck up almost every champion when he had exhaust up. Not that I minded.... Having been the AP Kog at the time. xD
Eedat17 votesLOL yeah sure dude. Go feed "duel" a Leblanc in lane and see how that works out. Let's see exhaust be up 100% of the time that LB jumps on you
ABSINTHEged3 votesIn all seriousness between rylai's (400 health + easy permanent slow), Lindy's (300 health), Athene's (30 MR), and the active on seraphs embrace (a shield usually worth about 300 health), yes, you can kill a LeBlanc on AP Kog.
All of those items are core in AP Kog's build anyways. He should be building them every game. That being said it's a skill matchup. Just like with any mage you need to predict her.
Throw in an exhaust? Yes you have a duel.
KorZod5 votesNeither Liandy's nor Athenes are core on AP kog. Look up Happo, one of the last truly top-tier AP kog players. With the changes to how his ult works (and athenes... very inefficient on Kog) you really want arch/void/rylais/ludens/morellos. He bursts more than pokes, so Liandry's is inefficient, Athene's gives Mregen which is useless on Kog because you run out of mana so fast ult chaining (and you don't have a shield for blood passive).
You'd definitely be right pre-rework, but not post. Raw mana is just too good to give up, and morello's lost chapter build path is amazing mid-game, and the late game +20% mana on assists and kills keeps you going in fights you'd otherwise end up OOM in.
In any event, I'd agree that with exhaust you can win that. If you time your EQR right, and don't die to her jump, you'd probably win.
Eedat9 votesWell good to know once I hit 5 items and my tear is fully stacked I can stand a chance against Leblanc in lane. As well all know 40 minutes into the game is when laning phase really begins
Battlecast Sona2 votesthat's where all the hardcore duels REALLY happen, after everyone has completed 3-4 items
Eedat4 votesyou mean when LB has 4 items and I'm on 2.5 after getting dominated in lane?
K.
Battlecast Sona2 votesI was sarcastically agreeing with you... Why u respond so hostile?
Eedat7 votesbecause of the other people in this thread that act like LB doesnt completely and utterly destroy Kog
ABSINTHEged4 votesAre you actually complaining about how an early game lane bully assassain beats a hypercarry late game artillery mage in lane?
Your only goal in the laning phase is to survive.
Eedat2 votesAre you actually impying you actually stand a chance against LB in lane to get to 4-5 items?
This is the funniest part. You've never even played AP Kog yet you're going to attempt to tell me how its played lmao.
Thats what's great about the boards. People who have absolutely ZERO idea what they're talking about try to tell you they're right hahaha
ABSINTHEged3 votesLol. I mained AP Kog in season 5, buddy.
Kog's lane is very hard against LB. That's correct. It's honestly more difficult with his movement speed against things with more range like varus, zed, and Xerath.
You don't need to kill LB to get her to back off, though. All you need to do is survive, and going the rylai's build you scale pretty well with her. Rylai's and farming from tower with the very tip of your E should be enough to keep you alive.
Eedat3 votesI mained AP Kog in season 5, buddy.
Ok 0 mastery points on Kog'Maw player. No ranked games on Kog last season either. You're story sounds legit. We believe you. Except by "We" I actually mean "Nobody".
ABSINTHEged3 votesLol! I see you found my, "Drink absinthe and play singed," account that has only existed this season. Something anyone who can read should have been able to deduce from my NAME (which has absinthe and singed in it), my match history full of 0/10 singed games, and the fact that it's in fucking silver. xD
Way to go buddy.
hhaavviikk13 votesgetting harassed from 1800 range isn't fun.
Tyrone Lannister9 votesYea ap kog while being fun to play, isnt fun to play against. Especially how much dmg he could do with just ludens
hhaavviikk2 votesyep, at rank 1 of his ult the range is acceptable, however at 1800 range it's near impossible to just hard engage on him to stop him from harassing you with his ult.
however I will also agree that his current ult feels bad to use, using it against champions who aren't already nearly dead feels like a waste of mana.
ofart7 votesyep, at rank 1 of his ult the range is acceptable, however at 1800 range it's near impossible to just hard engage on him to stop him from harassing you with his ult.
however I will also agree that his current ult feels bad to use, using it against champions who aren't already nearly dead feels like a waste of mana.
his winrate wasn't dominant and nor was he picked anywhere near as much as standard mids so I don't think it was an issue
the meta is even worse for ap kog now because of so many more engage/roaming champions like taliyah, aurelion and kled. even the adc reworks have more mobility - think corki package, graves, fiora rework etc.
split-pushers are also in a better spot than they were then and not just because of jax buffs. first turret gold is great and getting rift on the top laner makes split pushing even stronger too.
early game matters more than it did then too due to the more impactful dragons and the stacking mechanic. turrets are also easier to kill now that you benefit from penetration when attacking them. spawn-timers are also longer most of the game so again, it's more punishing for weaker early game teams. this is amplified by the souped up baron minions and extended duration for baron.
finally, you don't just instantly get to 1800 range. that happens at 35+ min. and you should have a sizeable lead by then. it's like saying vayne is too strong because of her late game and ignoring everything it took to get there or her other weaknesses besides damage. kog is similar and has many weaknesses. even for poke, he had to wait nearly 10 seconds after every 3 ults. to reset his mana costs. it looks much easier when playing against it than it actually is and my guess is your team wasn't recognizing the many windows of opportunity. they didn't even have to get to kog directly in one of those windows. just engaging on ANYONE would start a disadvantageous fight while kog's mana costs haven't reset. plus, ap kog wasn't usually as good at straight-up all-ins as other mids such as annie or cass..
to sum up, even the old ap kog would be overall weaker than he used to be except for one thing: Rylai's. this item is my only balance worry for him due to the 40% 1 sec slow. he can use it now too but his ult. is pretty meaningless for poke so it's basically just for cc. the old kog could use it for cc too but would also hurt so the slow would become more meaningful.
Rebonack12 votesRiot has said that they believe an artillery Mage with no hard CC, ramping mana costs, and a tiny skillshot is 'unhealthy' for the game. So they're probably not going to be reverting the Ult, sadly.
Erockandroll4 votesRiot has said that they believe an artillery Mage with no hard CC, ramping mana costs, and a tiny skillshot is 'unhealthy' for the game. So they're probably not going to be reverting the Ult, sadly.
Wasn't really healthy as it was. also Riot may not have found enough in AP Kog to make it a distinctive pick, when compared to other siege mages.
I actually wanted to consider if AP Kog could be changed to have a more distinctive AP kit. Though it might be difficult to support that and his ADC build at the same time.
ofart7 votesWasn't really healthy as it was. also Riot may not have found enough in AP Kog to make it a distinctive pick, when compared to other siege mages.
I actually wanted to consider if AP Kog could be changed to have a more distinctive AP kit. Though it might be difficult to support that and his ADC build at the same time.
he was a VERY distinctive pick and the only long-range poke-dps (for the window while he still has mana) hypercarry champion. i think ap kog was just as unique, if not more than say lux compared to vel'koz.
Rebonack3 votesWasn't really healthy as it was. also Riot may not have found enough in AP Kog to make it a distinctive pick, when compared to other siege mages.
I actually wanted to consider if AP Kog could be changed to have a more distinctive AP kit. Though it might be difficult to support that and his ADC build at the same time.
There still aren't any other Artillery Mages with Kog's poke pattern. EG, spam a bunch of shots and then wait six seconds for the mana cost to reset. Kog's AP ratios weren't amazing. He needed to soften up foes with his Ult before trying to finish them off with QE.
And I've got to ask, how was AP Kog's Ult more unhealthy than Lux' E? Until Kog hits level 16 the range is pretty similar and Lux' skillshot is MUCH harder to dodge.
Battlecast Sona2 votesLux's laser is on a much longer CD and the tell is much larger/easier to see than Kog's R?
I mean, the main problem with Kog's R is that when you're ahead as AP Kog it can destroy people but when you're behind it's basically worthless. But Kog that's ahead vs Lux that's ahead? The Kog definitely has the advantage in that scenario because his poke is spammable and gives vision, whereas Lux's only real long range poke is E and she's gated pretty hard by CDs (as she should be). That's the main problem I feel with AP Kog - he really doesn't feel very gated by anything at all except mana pool, and even that can be counteracted fairly easily.
Rebonack2 votes[{quoted}](name=Battlecast Janna,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0u46XXR9,comment-id=0000000000010000,timestamp=2016-09-12T20:45:51.363+0000)
Lux's laser is on a much longer CD and the tell is much larger/easier to see than Kog's R?
And it hits an area about thirty times as large, has a lower delay before dealing its damage, and deals well over twice the damage. Lux also lands her combo no questions asked if she hits her Q.
I mean, the main problem with Kog's R is that when you're ahead as AP Kog it can destroy people but when you're behind it's basically worthless. But Kog that's ahead vs Lux that's ahead? The Kog definitely has the advantage in that scenario because his poke is spammable and gives vision, whereas Lux's only real long range poke is E and she's gated pretty hard by CDs (as she should be). That's the main problem I feel with AP Kog - he really doesn't feel very gated by anything at all except mana pool, and even that can be counteracted fairly easily.
He's cripplingly weak early game, compared to Lux' fairly solid presence. His poke is downright terrible pre-six. And post six he lacks killing power compared to other Mages that he makes up for with superior poke. There's nothing wrong with champions not fitting into the homogenized mess that is the rest of the Artillery Mage class.
KorZod2 votesKog had a pretty solid niche as the windowed relentless-barrage. As opposed to most mages where if you survive the 3 spell rotation you can engage more safely, Kog can barrage you without rest for a really long time, as long as mana holds. His Q armor/MR shred was also unique among mages, and scaling nature was different than most mages level 6 first item power spike. Kog was a later, level 11 ish 2.5 item spike (Ludens, tear/old liandrys)
Camp Top10 votesI loved old kog maw and he was my season 4 favorite adc and mid. I am ecstatic that they are doing this but to me it's like they're giving us a hollow shell without the ult. This is some amalgamation of play styles with no cohesion
ABSINTHEged8 votesAs a former AP kog'maw main, it was only ever fun for the AP Kog'maw.
That being said, his old kit with the new ult kind of gimps his AD laning phase.
They'll need to figure something out.
Sohleks3 votesThat being said, his old kit with the new ult kind of gimps his AD laning phase.
I remember laning versus old AD Kog and actually having to respect his poke 6 & 11.
Now he has nothing without extended trades. And we want him to be weak there cause remember earlier..?
It's a pidgeon holed linear pattern that gimps Kog in lane. In what way does it even makes sense thematically it only hurts as a finisher.
SpecterVonBaren1 votesWhat? Old Kog was BETTER in lane than new Kog, what are you smoking?
ABSINTHEged2 votesI think you must have misread.
I'm not comparing Old Kog and New Kog. I'm saying that riot can't leave new Kog's ult on the champion if they reverse the rest of his kit.
Old Kog was better in lane because he could actually poke.
Dengeden5 votesAP Kog buys 
when his ult decimates you regardless of your health. Are you sure you want that?
AhmCha2 votesConsidering the hit box on his ult, I don't think it would be too crazy. Like I said I don't know much about it. Ive only been around since the end of season 4 and I never saw it, or kogmaw in general. All I know is that it seems like something that a lot of people loved and I'd hate to see it go without making a case for it.
Battlecast Sona4 votesit's pretty toxic, honestly. The main issue is that he can stall midlane forever because he can literally stand under his tower and push ER on the creepwave to clear it...without ever being in range of poke or harass. Anyone who is defending it (it did have clear weaknesses) is ignorant, because having weaknesses doesn't make something not awful to play against or automatically healthy for the state of the game. That's one of the big reasons that, now, it does more damage when a target is lower on HP (which solidifies the intended use case of finishing people off with Kog's range, which makes sense) - but that hampered AP Kog's build heavily, because you relied on the R to deal the preliminary damage as well.
Speedphoenix5 votesplease don't ap kog maw is awesome as it is, these people simply stopped playing him
Doctor Dyment5 votesSame people asking for it are probably in the same boats as the people who were upset when Riot killed AP Yi. Yeah people used it, but it was probably better when they removed the ability to be AP. Just my opinion on it.
ofart3 votes[{quoted}](name=Doctor Dyment,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0u46XXR9,comment-id=0017,timestamp=2016-09-13T02:23:46.820+0000)
Same people asking for it are probably in the same boats as the people who were upset when Riot killed AP Yi. Yeah people used it, but it was probably better when they removed the ability to be AP. Just my opinion on it.
ap yi was more of a gimmick than ap kog and was a bit awkward for his kit. kog has all magic damage abilities with ap scaling on every ability and was played as an ap mid for 5 seasons through every meta and item refresh.
Sire Hippington3 votesthough the ap built+playstyle that most people used was prettymuch useing just his ult and maybe occasionally the E, so only half the kit, like Yi did. The Ap builts/playstyles that use his entire kit still work perfectly fine, didn't have any issues with my nashors koggmaw since the rework.
Sire Hippington3 votesAp(as in Ult only) kog might be fun to play, but it's horrible to face. Once level 16, it's like a xerath with infinite ammo on the ult...
Now, I'm not against helping ap kog, but i'm certainly against reverting the ult changes. His old ult spamming ap built was toxic. A possible change to help ap kog would be buffing his Q, increase the ap ratio back to 0.7 and maybe give it some splash effeckt that deals damage while only the main target gets the armor/mr shred. His Q is the most interactive spell, if ap kog should get power, then Q is the way to go.
Also, ap-heavy builts still work perfectly fine, it's just the builts that focus on his ult and only his ult that struggle.
Blåbæret2 votesAP Kog is an unwanted annoyance and a plague which is why Riot doesn't support the playstyle. Usually, people who want these kinds of builds back are using it a means of freelo or generally just enjoys being toxic (similar to the typical Yas main).
Kog in himself is inherently unhealthy and he'll probably receive another rework sooner or later. Wouldn't be surprised if Riot consideres him a design mistake.
Harvey Rabbit1 votesI've been experimenting with AP Kog in Poro King, and every time I have played it I have either highest damage to champions or second highest on my team. It really messes with the opponents' minds, they feel under constant threat no matter where they are, and he's not that easy to burst down because he can e,q,w,r someone in like .6 seconds and then keep unloading after that if they are still alive (they usually aren't).
I'm not sure about SR, because I find it so boring and don't play it much, but it seems like AP Kog can still be pretty strong even in current form. If you are used to AD Kog (like I was), you really don't get that his E and Q are formidable spells when you build up AP, you can do a lot of damage with just those. E hits for a huge AOE and slow, and when you get your AP up it does significant damage. And I guess if they revert W like they are talking about that will also strengthen AP Kog because on AP the W will be stronger without the 50% damage reduction. Yes, with AP Kog you are not trying to get that close to opponents usually, but often in practice you do end up that close to opponents.
When people talk about reverting Kog's ult, WHAT EXACTLY WAS DIFFERENT ABOUT THE OLD ULT? Some of us weren't around then.
Cipse2 votesCost: 40 mana to 50 mana Damage: 80/120/160 to 70/110/150 AP Ratio: 0.3 to 0.25 Bonus AD Ratio: 0.5 to 0.65 Vision Duration: 4 seconds to 2 seconds Stack Duration: 6 seconds to 10 seconds
Does double damage to enemies between 25% and 50% health Does triple damage to enemies below 25% health Double base damage to enemy champions removed
Harvey Rabbit1 votesThanks. I also found this on the wiki:
Living Artillery.png Living Artillery Damage changed to 70 / 110 / 150 (+ 65% Bonus AD) (+ 25% AP) from 80 / 120 / 160 (+ 50% Bonus AD) (+ 30% AP) REMOVED: Bonus damage to champions NEW EFFECT: Deals 「 twice the damage 」 to targets below 50% maximum health and 「 thrice the damage 」 to targets below 25% maximum health Cost increased to 50 from 40 Per-cast added cost increased to 50 from 40 Maximum cost increased to 500 from 400 Added cost duration increased to 10 seconds from 6
I dunno, to be honest changing the ult back seems like it would be a nerf. [But there was some kind of bonus damage to champions before that I can't find what it is.] The bonus damage that they added on on weakened targets is immense. The base damages of the ult now aren't that different than before. **Seems like people's main problem with AP Kog currently is not being able to manage mp, but that is actually quite possible to do. **
ULTIx2 votesBefore rework, damage from R was +150% against champions. That's why it was far far better before rework.
Wind Whistler3 votes[{quoted}](name=Hey Le Piaf,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0u46XXR9,comment-id=000c000100000000,timestamp=2016-09-13T14:43:53.803+0000)
Before rework, damage from R was +150% against champions. That's why it was far far better before rework.
It was actually just 100%. Way back when he was released, it USED to be 150%, but they nerfed it to 125%, and then much, much later, I think in season 4 or something, they nerfed it to 100%. It was still much better, though.
Cipse2 votesI mained AP Kog last season and I do think that the damage changes were overall a nerf to him. I say that because he had a pretty weak early game and the doubled base damage to champions helped him a lot because, in laning, you would use R to poke or to keep them away from you when you farmed. The new R gives more damage to him late game but I don't think his late game needs any more strength.
But the biggest change to me was increasing the stack duration. Basically, this opens up larger windows to be engaged upon whilst lowering the amount of poke Kog will deal. The mana changes hurt but not as much as the debuff length.
