Or would that just make it broken?
Thornmail is arguably a bad item right now, one of the major problems its suffering is the fact that any little bit if Lifesteal will out sustain the return damage it does. So I wonder if giving it the ability to null any Life Steal proc on the user would make it more healthy? or if it would make it broken?
Thoughts?
Crett5 votesRiot's tried this in the past. I don't think it'd be an awful idea if it at least applied grievous wounds, but I wouldn't know personally.
Ralanr2 votesI honestly don't think thornmail can ever be a good and balanced item. It directly punishes sustained damage, which is the intended weakness of champions who buy it.
It might just have to disappear.
Jax Cramer2 votesTo be fair it was pretty balanced before Riot changed it in 5.16. The last time it received a change before that was back in Season 2...so it was a pretty solid and decently popular purchase for 3 seasons in a row basically without any balance changes.
Ralanr1 votesWhat was it before the change?
Jax Cramer1 votes200 gold cheaper.
Wolfram Oxford1 votesWhat was it before the change?
It didn't scale with armor back then.
Need Gold 4 Tent1 votesAlso was 30% if I recall correctly. But the problem with that was that some autoattack reliant champs like Vayne, Kog, and other champs who used on-hits/abilities were punished a lot less than they should've been with it, while champs that relied on crit were punished too heavily for it (you could literally "burst" yourself to death on it with crit builds).
Now, with the reduced % and an added scaling for armor meant that on-hits were equally punished which I believe to be Thornmail's original purpose, not just against crit but against AA reliant champs. Vayne and Kog who generally built less LS were still covered by the armor scaling bit, while the crit building ones who built BT would receive a bigger damage from the % return portion.
That being said, with crit builds becoming popular again, the old thornmail would've been better (and probably even balanced) in the current situation.
Spoofghoul1 votesThe main reason why it got gutted was because it was good single defensive item, making it too powerful on anyone who did not buy any additional defense because it did not really scale
Jax Cramer2 votesThornmail is not as bad as people are making it out to be. Some people expect buying a 2350 gold item vs a full AD comp automatically gives them the win so they think it sucks.
Tomosima2 votesIt would be beyond broken, even adcs would buy it
MatthewRT22 votesi don't think it should completely negate the healing but give something like grievous wounds
Need Gold 4 Tent1 votesA tank's version of EC, I like it. If the GW (not the damage) applied to spell casts as well, it would be perfect for a tank against healing from abilities (tanks now don't have a way to cut healing except for Mortal Reminder or Morello's, both which aren't great on them).
Anonagon2 votesUnpopular opinion, but here I go:
I don't think Thornmail should be a viable item. Lets face it; carries are supposed to be able to kill tanks. That's the point. If damage didn't outscale tankiness, then games simply wouldn't end at an acceptable pace. As hilarious as it is to watch an ADC struggle to figure out how to damage a Rammus or Malphite with thornmail, that shouldn't be a thing in this game.
Rivuo1 votesThornmail is arguably a bad item right now, one of the major problems its suffering is the fact that any little bit if Lifesteal will out sustain the return damage it does.
False. No matter if you have a bloodthirster, You still need MR to negate damage coming back.
Tew Liter1 votesIt would make ADC's effectively useless.
Very Hard Engage2 votesno it just means you cant build IE/hurricane/boots and expect to be able to deal with them, you gotta change up your build/order is all.
Tew Liter1 votesAnd build what? Honestly I think thornmail is fine its a situational item not one that should be built every game.
Very Hard Engage1 votesback in the day lucian used to rush bork. and caitlyn rushed blood thirster. they were much longer drawn out fights instead of whoops mistepped once, blitz got me in dead... long gone are the days where it meant you played passively to get the rest of your health back.... and then re engage under more favorable terms.
you would now rush cleaver or last whisper so you could kill them in fewer autos. i dont want 0 lifesteal from thornmail, thats just dumb. but whats worse is how ineffective thornmail is.
1374341 votesBack in the day bork was stronger and every adc rushed blood thirster... because it was a very different item.
People didn't play passively to get the rest of their health back, they played passively to build up their bloodthirster stacks to make them stronger (+1 AD and 0.2% lifesteal per a minion kill capping at 30, giving the item 100 AD and 18% ls at full stacks, half the stacks lost at death).
And its always been whoops mistepped once blitz got me im dead (or burnt flash/heal/whatever). That is always how Blitz lanes have been played.
Very Hard Engage1 votesas someone who plays rammus and builds thornmail.... a lot....
1 lifesteal item negates thornmail.
2 lifesteal items negates thornmail + DBC
3 lifesteal items and he heals off of me.
thornmail should be stronger than 1 lifesteal item, but less than 2. the damage should be ramped up a little bit overall and maybe see a price increase too and build from a third cloth armor or an additional chain vest.
it only costs 2350.... but its a terrible rush item.
BLYAT moon Akali1 votesno, it would be more appropriate to hardcap lifesteal at 20%.
warpenguin5551 votesRemoving all lifesteal - No. Changing it to give back physical to attackers damage and giving grevious wounds - maybe
6Sfool1 votesYES. I could go for that. Or at least the grievous wounds part. Items such as thornmail and sunfire cape deal magic damage because magic damage is balanced around that kind of dot (darius is an exception).
I really don't like how ranged ad's have both the best access to lifesteal and to grievous wounds. Tanks need some love, and right now tanks have very limited access to grievous wounds.
Riot could make it a frontliner item, giving it a bit less armor but a small amount of ad or cdr.
Veraska1 votesThornmail is such a badly designed item already and that would break it even more
Tychusfindlay9191 votesWould probably break it.
A simple change would be having it reflect true damage or physical damage (adc have no armor options but have a couple mr AD options, so this would counteract that).
The Whamboozler1 votesThornmail is bad for lots of reasons. Because lifesteal basically negates it AND because it has no other stats but armor in a game where armor pen is ABSURDLY common and strong. Getting thornmail rarely makes you feel much tankier at all considering it has no offensive stats, and what it does do is negated by a commonplace ability.
Thornmail should be a health/armor item like deadmans and randuins and then it might see some use against comps with multiple auto attackers because at least it wouldn't be utterly useless once they have armor pen. It should also apply some sort of debuff with the return damage. Maybe not grievous wounds but something.
Nagoh Shan1 votesIt would, but let's still not do that.
