Huge Problem with Tanks: Mid-tier items feel awful.

ModCaptainMårvelous··30 votes·12,895 views

And this is a problem that goes well beyond any meta or damage count.

When you compare mid-tier items:

#Mages

Mages get all sorts of neat in-between items that can change how you play. Stopwatch is one hourglass proc for 600g, Hextech revolver gives you some sniping potential. If you're building into a spellblade type build, Sheen gives you a nice powerspike. There's also lost chapter, now the quintiseential item for mana on level-up.

#Bruisers/Skirmishers/melee in general

Not quite as much as mages but still some neat stuff. Tiamat gives you waveclear and a bonus item proc to use. Phage gives you some MS when you use physical skills. Trinity can also give you some neat stuff. There's also a bit of overlap with tanks, adcs and assassin here.

#ADCs and Assassins

Rounding off these two together as there's some overlap: While it's not much, they do have some fun things. Cutlass gives you a neat little slow before you make it to bork. Hexdrinker gives you some durability vs, mages and pops a shield. QSS is QSS. Also some subtle things like the charge shard whose name I can never get right. (Krichsis? Kriches? Something like that).

#Supports

lmao miss me with that shit supports get crazy neat toys.

#Tanks

To understand why tanks are the most bland/problematic, let's look at some mid tier items: item 3076 item 3082 item 3211 item 3751 item 2053 (There's also the line of just "More armor" or "More MR" or "More HP" )

Do you see a pattern?

Most of these items simply rely on the enemy to hit you. Tanks, in this regard, have very little agency and the uniqueness/"fun" of their mid-tier items are entirely focused on "I got hit so something happens". The alternative items are passives with general effects you could easily miss. Tank mid-tier items don't feel good because you're either just given something for being hit or not given adequate tools to do ANYTHING other than "Please beat my face in so I can use my item."

And yes, reader who is already prepping the comment, I'm aware there are plenty of generic stat sticks in other classes like tanks. However, tank mid-tiers have nothing going for them. They're boring, bland and require the enemy to act upon you, not with you. Unlike a stat stick like, say, Seeker's armguard where the armor/ap boost is entirely on me to farm.

IMO, tanks need something. Maybe actives. Maybe something neater. I don't have a solution but as is, tank mid-tiers feel like the worst in the game which leads to them feeling worse.

59 Comments

LiL Bunnie FuFuu20 votes

You know what would make playing tanks more fun?

Less damage

:)

Hotarµ4 votes

[{quoted}](name=LiL Bunnie FuFuu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0sc9TjnJ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-12-30T08:28:02.363+0000)

You know what would make playing tanks more fun?

Less damage

:)

Better tank itemization would result in less damage being taken and tanks being more viable.

LiL Bunnie FuFuu3 votes

Remove some of the stupidly high damage (especially true damage, which can't be mitigated) and you don't need better items to make tanks great again

Monstermushmush10 votes

[{quoted}](name=LiL Bunnie FuFuu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0sc9TjnJ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-12-30T08:28:02.363+0000)

You know what would make playing tanks more fun?

Less damage

:)

Indeed. And increased tankiness.

GayFluffyUnicorn2 votes

Less dmg and increased tankiness :thinking: You do realize conq and all the penetration exists because of how absurd defense has become? That's not how you fix it.

LiL Bunnie FuFuu3 votes

If your post was a meme then I congratulate you because it was very funny :)

KmSneaky1 votes

[{quoted}](name=LiL Bunnie FuFuu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0sc9TjnJ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-12-30T08:28:02.363+0000)

You know what would make playing tanks more fun?

Less damage

:)

I don't see why anyone would ask that :OOO Ornn OrnnOrnnOrnnOrnnOrnn

Daddy Ants10 votes

Making certain tank items melee only (item 3025 for example) would allow for more power to be put into them.

Bramble Vest is a tough one to balance, if it's too strong it invalidates champions like Fiora, Mundo etc.

Spectre's Cowl in my opinion is in a decent spot for it's price. Spectre's + Mercs is enough to invalidate ranged AP poke from champions like Viktor or Teemo.

Remember when Tank Itemization was insanely strong and we saw shit like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y3jRaYbSuM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbU6A9EFuxo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmyuZe1uEAQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dn8KMj0aFKA

No one wants this kind of gameplay to come back.

YumaS2Astral7 votes

The thing is,all those examples weren't tanks, they were assassins abusing tank items. You can tune assassins by giving them low base damage and high scalings, scalings with only AP/AD, allowing them to properly balanced around assassin items, and leaving tank items for, well... tanks

Cosnirak1 votes

And that's how you end up with extremely feast or famine assassins. You may feel differently, but personally I don't like assassins being that feast or famine.

FSRER1 votes

oh so nerf like 20 champions for such builds? You sir should work at riot

ModCaptainMårvelous3 votes

As pointed out in another comment: Assassins abusing good tank items.

I wouldn't say you have to buff or nerf top-tier tank items, mind you. Those are separate. What I'm advocating for is better mid-game/component itemization for tanks so that they feel better about getting a mid-tier item. Perhaps it changes how they play a bit. Etc. The post itself is less about "I think tank mid-tiers are over/underpowered" and more so "These items don't feel good to purchase are tanks have little skill expression or uniqueness in items".

Moody P1 votes

if riot did the right thing in s7 and pushed the stats from items hard into champion base stats then we would never have this issue again

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

As nice as that would be, I can just imagine the boards:

"TOO MUCH STUFF TO PUSH" "Items don't feel rewarding anymore." "Done with this game. Items are useless."

Moody P9 votes

Tank items are primarily built as a response to other champions on the enemy team (e.g who's fed, who you're laning vs) so this makes sense. It's to make tanks not feel pressured to buy any particular "core" item because their builds are usually very reactive to what's going on in the game.

Ralanr4 votes

Someone else actually gets this.

ModCaptainMårvelous4 votes

The one problem with that is you can still make mid-tier tank items that are more interesting or unique to purchase. For example, imagine if there was a mini-adaptive helm that didn't block as much damage but helped against dot mages. Likewise, if you're fighting a burst mage, maybe something like hexdrinker where you can get some durability to deal with burst.

To be truthful, your post just makes me realize how interesting tank items could be from a mid-tier position vs. what they are now.

Śhunpo2 votes

item 3076 Just needs to be removed, gross. Remove that and then we can talk about buffs.

Mael Jade1 votes

{quoted}

item 3076 Just needs to be removed, gross. Remove that and then we can talk about buffs.

Wouldnt be that bad, then Fiora would finally get some nerfs. Literally went without nerfs but instead got buffs over the last year because Bramble Vest counters her so hard she does not need any other nerf. LUL

GayFluffyUnicorn3 votes

Well that's riot for you. They don't know how to balance that abomination so they created an item to fuck her.

Great now she can get buffed and those who do not buy bramble vest just get slaughtered.

Śhunpo1 votes

I completely agree, nerf Fiora. She's always been strong, it's just that when she's somewhat fair to play against she isn't picked in the LC$ and you KNOW Riot doesn't want that.

AR URF2 votes

maybe item 3751 and item 3068 can have an active where it deals double dmg for a certain amount of time?

Finders Keepers2 votes

Bring back DFG

Daddy Ants2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Finders Keepers,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0sc9TjnJ,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2018-12-30T16:18:09.457+0000)

Bring back DFG

No.

Mages have the best itemization in the game right now.

If anything, other classes need itemization buffs or mages need itemization nerfs.

WiegrafOfValor2 votes

The community tried several times to pitch good active/passive effects for Tank items, Roit simply doesn't care as they want Tank to fck off from competitive.

I'll try to remember some of my favorites:

  • Active - Pull enemies towards you like a self Orianna ult, no damage, only cancels dashes and pull enemies towards you. (45 sec cooldown) (That would be a nice playmaking item to help Tank peel their carries, saving them from engaging as you cancel Assassin's dashes or even hold enemies near you giving your backline time to hit them.)

  • Passive - Reduce your own damage towards champions by X% (Technology is there as proven by Stoneplate) however, your AA gives the enemy 1/3 of X% for 6 seconds, stacking 6 times. Ending in 2X% damage reduction on the enemy, hitting a different enemy champion will reset the passive. (Great for engaging Tanks and Tank Supports, as you can just focus their DPS and reduce their effectiveness on a teamfight, making enemies have to focus you to peel their DPS from you.)

  • Active - Mark an enemy for 4 seconds, during this time their damage against other allied champions will be reduced by 50% and damage dealt on you will be increased by 50%. (60 sec cooldown) (I think it serves as a non-forced taunt on the enemy, giving 2 choices to them: Focus you for a 50% damage increase, focus the enemy but deal only half of the damage.)

  • Active - Smash the ground creating an AoE that grounds all enemies inside for 3 seconds, AoE scale with armor. (60 sec cooldown) (It can be a really nice niche for countering high mobility champions, also a great Yasuo counter, and that's always a plus for me.)

  • Passive - Gain physical armor equals to 50% of total armor, regens after 8 seconds outside combat. Active - During 2 seconds restore you armor shield to 300% (300% of 50% total armor = 150% total armor) of its maximum value. (90 sec cooldown)

TekkenPlayer1 votes

{quoted}

When you compare mid-tier items:

#Mages

Mages get all sorts of neat in-between items that can change how you play. Stopwatch is one hourglass proc for 600g, Hextech revolver gives you some sniping potential. If you're building into a spellblade type build, Sheen gives you a nice powerspike. There's also lost chapter, now the quintiseential item for mana on level-up.

most mid "Mages"will not buy anything besides item 3802 item 3070 item 3010"

Sheen / hextech revolver are rarely built. Utility items are a leisure item under the condition that your team is ahead. Everything is in one form or another mana or CDR first. And there's nothing else to build but pen and more damage. Rushing zhonyas early is a terrible investment as well.

I wanted to clarify that mage items are pretty fucking bland too, and there's little variety since items basically synergize with eachother and are expensive. Not building them is practically trolling unless you are sitting on a fat stack of gold

AjXtar1 votes

I remember when buyingitem 3751 was actually a good buy. Now I feel like a troll picking that.

FSRER1 votes

Most of these items simply rely on the enemy to hit you.

item 3309 item 3190 The first got removed god knows why The second is i guess in the game but it really needs better health scaling for the shield.

(not gona mention item 3109 because it has a self harming ability.)

Now, im one of those who here will say that tanks have armor items but still mages are allowed to destroy them. There are so many magic penetration items with no magic resist items whatsoever. Lets see a pure tank who isn't able to play with ap....Garen. Best excample. item 3194 item 3065 item 3111 In total 135 magic resist... laughable. You know what i think? item 4401 should get in game (with some tweaks of course) so that we actually have more mr choises.

Lovelle1 votes

Bruisers only have Tiamat and Phage, and one of them just got a price increase. Not all bruisers can optimally use Cleaver and Trinity Force is too expensive for most of them, relative to their scaling.

I would argue bruiser itemization is worse than tanks, because tanks are inherently gold efficient, while bruisers need items fast to not be useless by mid game.

GayFluffyUnicorn3 votes

Ofc bruiser itemization is worse. Unlike all the other classes they never got the promised update. To this day the most expensive build path with the shittiest scaling and gold efficiency.

King Lego1 votes

While I like playing as a tank because nothing is more satisfying than seeing a Zed barely able to tickle you even with his full rotation.

I do agree and also want tanks to become actual tanks again, there is just one problem.

How can we fix it without the return of the tank meta problem? Tank Fizz, Tank Ekko, Tank Katarina, and Tank Akali were something that had little to no counterplay.

I remember going Tank Vel'Koz in Season 7 with only Luden's and Zhonya as my 2 AP items and the rest just Armor/MR. It actually made the enemy team flame me non-stop because they couldn't do anything while I was able to melt them.

SanKakU1 votes

They just need to add more armor and MR ratios to tanks. Tank items are fine, I buy them on mages and whatever. It's tanks themselves that are bad because a lot of times their scaling is all over the place. Look at Braum, he's like a worse Ornn. Where Ornn scales with AD, AP, MR, armor, health...Q for AD, W for health, E for MR+armor, and R for AP. That's a different set of stats for each ability. Now let's look at Braum. Passive for Attack Speed...Q for health, W for MR+armor, E for movement speed, and R for AP. Again, all over the place. Imagine if his R also scaled with armor+MR, his E movement speed bonus would be boosted by AP, and perhaps a little AP scaling added to his Q. Then take Ornn and add a small amount of AP scaling to his Q and a small amount of AD scaling to his R.

Ornn being a newer champ isn't as bad off as many other tanks IMO, but he still suffers from things that champs from other classes don't have to suffer from. One of the few exceptions would be Jinx. Jinx's W has a rather high AD scaling, but doesn't scale with AP at all. And her E doesn't scale with AD at all. If one or both of these things changed, Jinx would actually maybe make it as a viable support. As it is, a lot of the tanks have a similar problem that Jinx has but instead of it making them bad for support, it makes them bad for the game entirely IMO. I'd rather play Morgana for example and buy a Randuin's or whatever tank item she doesn't scale with so I have access to Black Shield than to pick a champion that sacrifices too much for their durability and crowd control.

The scaling that tanks have with the tank items is just not good enough. If I were on the balance team, the first thing I'd do is touch every tank's scaling numbers. AP scaling numbers would either get gutted, or base numbers would get gutted, depending on the values. And then I'd throw in armor, health, MR, maybe even movement speed and attack speed scaling in a bunch of places so they can get better use out of defensive items than the champs that are abusing them and getting the items nerfed.

King Lego1 votes

{quoted}

They just need to add more armor and MR ratios to tanks. Tank items are fine, I buy them on mages and whatever. It's tanks themselves that are bad because a lot of times their scaling is all over the place. Look at Braum, he's like a worse Ornn. Where Ornn scales with AD, AP, MR, armor, health...Q for AD, W for health, E for MR+armor, and R for AP. That's a different set of stats for each ability. Now let's look at Braum. Passive for Attack Speed...Q for health, W for MR+armor, E for movement speed, and R for AP. Again, all over the place. Imagine if his R also scaled with armor+MR, his E movement speed bonus would be boosted by AP, and perhaps a little AP scaling added to his Q. Then take Ornn and add a small amount of AP scaling to his Q and a small amount of AD scaling to his R.

Ornn being a newer champ isn't as bad off as many other tanks IMO, but he still suffers from things that champs from other classes don't have to suffer from. One of the few exceptions would be Jinx. Jinx's W has a rather high AD scaling, but doesn't scale with AP at all. And her E doesn't scale with AD at all. If one or both of these things changed, Jinx would actually maybe make it as a viable support. As it is, a lot of the tanks have a similar problem that Jinx has but instead of it making them bad for support, it makes them bad for the game entirely IMO. I'd rather play Morgana for example and buy a Randuin's or whatever tank item she doesn't scale with so I have access to Black Shield than to pick a champion that sacrifices too much for their durability and crowd control.

The scaling that tanks have with the tank items is just not good enough. If I were on the balance team, the first thing I'd do is touch every tank's scaling numbers. AP scaling numbers would either get gutted, or base numbers would get gutted, depending on the values. And then I'd throw in armor, health, MR, maybe even movement speed and attack speed scaling in a bunch of places so they can get better use out of defensive items than the champs that are abusing them and getting the items nerfed.

Makes sense really. I use to be good at Braum. I haven't played him for a long time.

Although I'm not even sure about Jinx being played as a support. This one is just too weird for me. Probably because I don't understand that champion well.

Boiled Triangles1 votes

Just decrease damage in the game, then make item adjustments if needed. Literally any other move riot makes besides nerfing damage is a wasted action.

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

Yeah, not really.

As I wanted to point out in the OP, these problems will persist regardless of meta and will always be a thing until a change is made. They transcend damage, durability, meta and the like: It's a problem with the game itself. In much the same way things like Flash and ADC reliance on bot lane are always a problem, so too can this be a problem.

If Riot introduced a patch and cut all damage in the game by 75%, it still would make these items boring.

Boiled Triangles1 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, not really.

As I wanted to point out in the OP, these problems will persist regardless of meta and will always be a thing until a change is made. They transcend damage, durability, meta and the like: It's a problem with the game itself. In much the same way things like Flash and ADC reliance on bot lane are always a problem, so too can this be a problem.

If Riot introduced a patch and cut all damage in the game by 75%, it still would make these items boring.

There are plenty of tank items that have interesting actives, and decreasing the amount of damage in the game would likely give tanks more freedom to build such items.

ModCaptainMårvelous2 votes

Which ones? A lot of them usually fall more under support items and good more so for support tanks and not like...tank-tanks.

For non-support actives I'm thinking:

item 3193 item 3143 item 3800 item 3512

Most of these are sometimes built by bruisers, for sure, but these items still won't be built en masse even in a tank meta. This also ignores the main part of OP/point I made before, where it's not the end game stuff that feels bad (as you can get some neat passives/actives like warmogs or zzrot) but the mid-tier stuff that feels the worst.

Tanks items, in general, feel bad as mid-tier items more so than other classes.

SanKakU1 votes

Tanks use their annoying crowd control to encourage champs to hit them. If those champs do not hit them, they're going to have a harder time getting to their desired targets. I would argue that this leads to higher mobility tanks being stronger because such can give chase when attempts to avoid the tanks are made.

deltemp9515121 votes

Tanks are troll picks. That's about all there is to it. If you don't have damage you are 100% useless and might as well int.

Leaf on Bush1 votes

That's what tanks do, but you need to time your int so it helps your team.

Leaf on Bush1 votes

Do you see a pattern?

Not really. Maybe be more specific.

Most of these items simply rely on the enemy to hit you. Tanks, in this regard, have very little agency and the uniqueness/"fun" of their mid-tier items are entirely focused on "I got hit so something happens".

I am a bit confused. Are tanks not supposed to tank, that's literally their name. You don't have to enjoy this role, but please stop this nonsensical feedback.

You also can't think of a single suggestion, could this be because you don't even know what you want?

ModCaptainMårvelous4 votes

Well the first half of "Did you see a pattern" was a lead in to part two.

That said, to your second point, you can still be a tank but have more to do. I have about four tanks in WoW and all of them have some pretty entertaining things they can do. I've played tanks in dota as well, which also have more to do. To give an example, compare blademail to thornmail or Shiva's Guard to Frozen heart.

Blademail gives you an active that reflects ALL damage for a brief time, making you have to judge when it's the right time to pop it which can lead to some absolutely devastating punishment. Thornmail...gives you damage for people hitting you.

Shiva's Guard makes a giant slow field that deals a little damage and slows enemies around you. It's great for getting in the middle of a fight and makes you judge if you should use it to slow people in a fight or use it to catch people escaping. Frozen Heart....passively slows people.

In every regard, League's tank itemization fails to be really interesting. Very few tanks items have actives and components don't feel good to use. "They're tanks so they should just take hits" is a terrible argument to make and makes the case that tank players don't actually want to do things but be passive meat walls that are entirely reliant on their kits with zero skill expression in their items. You can be a tank with more to do and Riot can absolutely add or improve items to allow tanks to have more to do in a fight without just making each new item a nice new cut of veal for the meat slab.

Leaf on Bush1 votes

Blademail gives you an active that reflects ALL damage for a brief time

so you...

simply rely on the enemy to hit you. Tanks, in this regard, have very little agency

How is that better? Also how does this item fit into the general item roster of league of legends? Seems kinda overpowered.

ModCaptainMårvelous2 votes

How is that better? Also how does this item fit into the general item roster of league of legends? Seems kinda overpowered.

Note:

Blademail gives you an active that reflects ALL damage for a brief time

Compare to Thormail:

Passively gives you reflected damage on hit

There is a major, huge difference. And yeah, it does seem OP, but it also can do absolutely nothing if you mistime it. In much the same way Fiora's parry can block absolutely nothing or block your ultimate, it relies on both you to counter it and her to play around you.

If this was an item in league, you'd basically have two options: You can either tank it on a champ you know will focus you and punish them accordingly for hitting you or you can pick up a taunt champ and use it to maximize your punishment. Either way, there's more thought, skill and general usefulness to it.

Even then, ignoring the thornmail/blademail example, making stuff like FH an active means you can hit them harder in teamfights, punish people for letting you start fights on your terms or otherwise. And even if that's too powerful, giving tanks mid-tier item actives will make them more enjoyable to play and give them some power beyond "My item's effectiveness is 100% reliant on you hitting me"

Minimac20001 votes

Honestly it's not midtier items it's all tank items. They just suck balls rn bc of high damage. I've stopped building resists on tanks, building item 3748 item 3053 and pretending to be a juggernaut, just works better on all of the useful tanks rn

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

To reiterate the post, this isn't about how good or bad the tank items are. It's about how it feels to build a mid-tier item.

item 3077 item 3052 feel better to build because one gives you an active, the other gives you a stacking mechanic which lets you do something with the item.

item 3024 item 3211 feel worse because they're flat stats and any uniqueness is reliant on either someone hitting you or just being near you. As a tank you have zero agency with items like this.

KETSU01 votes

although i do agree tanks are weak, I cant accept the fact that a item 1031 and a item 3047 will make my damage obsolete in lane as a skirmisher

Shatter the Sun1 votes

Idea for a tank item would be:

"Name here"

Stats- Melee only 2800 Gold 50 armor 50 magic resist 15% tenacity

Items to build- item 1031 item 1057

Passive- attacking an enemy champion lets you resist their strongest damage type by X% adding 1% for every 50 armor and MR you have stacking up to 90% after X amount of seconds. When out of combat resists begin to deteriorate.

Active- Send out tendrils that latch on to enemies allowing you to gain resistances to each enemy tagged with a tendril. Enemies can walk out of range of tendrils to break the link causing the resist type to deteriorate faster than normal if you they were not the last person hit.

This encourages you to get into the middle of the fight and actually fight. You gain tankiness for bravery.

Daddy Ants1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Shatter the Sun,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0sc9TjnJ,comment-id=0019,timestamp=2018-12-31T03:25:25.014+0000)

Idea for a tank item would be:

"Name here"

Stats- Melee only 2800 Gold 50 armor 50 magic resist 15% tenacity

Items to build- item 1031 item 1057

Passive- attacking an enemy champion lets you resist their strongest damage type (Magic or Physical only) by X% adding 1% for every 50 armor and MR you have stacking up to 90% after X amount of seconds. When out of combat resists begin to deteriorate.

Active- Send out tendrils that latch on to enemies allowing you to gain resistances to each enemy tagged with a tendril. Enemies can walk out of range of tendrils to break the link causing the resist type to deteriorate faster than normal if you they were not the last person hit.

Vlada Cut1 votes

So you're saying that Tanks have a bigger problem because they have cool items while supports "don't". So by that logic shouldn't supports be getting "fresh new toys" then? You said it, not me lol.

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