Stacking armor reduces move speed, AA attack speed and ability telegraph speed but increases AD

Brascus·Mar 21, 2017·2 votes·1,072 views

This would be an interesting concept to try out on Juggernauts, the whole slow but dangerous theme

http://imgur.com/OrulFRM

http://imgur.com/fzX62ov

42 Comments

RalanrMar 21, 20176 votes

You shouldn't lose a stat by building a different stat.

ADCs don't lose durability for damage, they just don't get durable because they don't build for it.

BrascusMar 21, 20171 votes

Why not though? Works in dark souls, if you build tanky in DS you give up sustained damage for 1 big hit every now and then, the weight of the armor gives you more poise so attacks won't as easily stagger/knock you down because armor can get heavy when it's made of 5" plates of steel

RalanrMar 21, 20174 votes

Dark souls is a third person hack and slash that really rewards muscle memory (and dying a lot to learn things apparently). I wouldn't really see Dark Souls as the best game to compare design choices with League.

Also Dark Souls doesn't look like it was designed with PVP as a primary, unlike league.

BrascusMar 21, 20171 votes

So you haven't played Dark Souls?

RalanrMar 21, 20171 votes

I haven't gotten into it as much as I would like.

BrascusMar 21, 20171 votes

#8 has a good example

https://youtu.be/Nf1pttPMAp0?t=133

RalanrMar 21, 20171 votes

Forgive me, I'm not really understanding how that would make your mechanic work in league.

BrascusMar 21, 20171 votes

It's a literal example of a dude who wore heavy armor and a heavy weapon, almost 1 shot someone with their guard down, the victim rallied and used hit dexterity to out maneuver future attempts

Which is why it's balanced

1 build is heavily telegraphed and devastating
the other is reactionary and more mobile

RalanrMar 21, 20171 votes

Ok, so how exactly is that supposed to transition into league? The character would pretty much be at their strongest at level 1 because they have all their stats as equal.

BrascusMar 21, 20171 votes

Take Darius Q for example or Morde Q, as they stack armor the AD and/or AD ratio would increase but the windup would take longer, they also move slower.

At level 1 it's more neutral than being more/less powerful.

Maybe there would be proper Juggernaut items to reflect this, if not a conversion keystone:

#Havel's Hauberk Armor & Attack Damage +1 Telegraph Speed -1 Move Speed -1

RalanrMar 21, 20172 votes

Except people would end up building him the opposite so they wouldn't lose their negatives.

Instead of armor they'd build health. Instead of AD they'd just build crit.

The more of the primary stats you build, the easier it becomes for your enemy to fight you as well given what you subtract. It's basically a reverse snowball design.

BrascusMar 21, 20171 votes

Garen Darius will still find it impossible to stick to mobile targets without something like item 3022 or item 3025 so in theory it doesn't matter that much. They get windows of opportunity when in range, Darius being more versatile and your team helps you fill in the gaps.

Any juggernaut right now will get kited to death going solo.

RalanrMar 21, 20171 votes

Exactly, because their core items punish them and their items that avoid the punishment don't work well on them, they effectively become trash because no one wants to build stats that make them weaker than they already are in an area.

BrascusMar 21, 20171 votes

It's perfectly viable in game design to counter balance flaws, otherwise Juggernauts as a concept wouldn't exist.

Covering your flaws only opens up new ones, if it doesn't the design will be really broken as there is no way to exploit a visible disadvantage.

Things like passive movespeed buffs are a progression of the game and not an actual bonus because everyone has it. Otherwise juggernauts building item 3742 would be so broken, but it's not because mobile champs have lower CD's, more available kiting and higher movespeed like everyone else.

RalanrMar 21, 20171 votes

Except in league we don't really cover our flaws. They are kept open by design. Trying to cover them actually makes us weaker already.

Juggernauts have no real hard counter to kiting from immobile champions.

Marksmen don't have a way to fully counter being bursted without sacrificing damage (and they get nerfs whenever they can).

This would just be unfair to juggernauts. They shouldn't lose a stat they were balanced around not building for building a stat they were balanced around.

BrascusMar 21, 20171 votes

But juggernauts have a lot of inbuilt passive MS items

item 3071 item 3044 item 3742 item 3512

Generally don't build attack speed because it has conflicting synergy

Juggernauts also don't get many attacks in during a team fight, it would make more sense that they would have bigger slower attacks, otherwise Darius wouldn't work at all.

RalanrMar 21, 20171 votes

So why should they get less attack speed from building items? You make them too ability reliant and those abilities become too telegraphed.

Darius would take way too long to actually apply five bleed stacks on people if he lost AS based on his primary items.

BrascusMar 21, 20171 votes

He seems like it takes long but it's pretty ok, you start with 3-4 stacks from the beginning with a combination of E, (run ahead of the target) AA, W, Q (AA), it's even easier to get full stacks if you can start with an AA.

When I first started playing Darius I used to think building attack speed is great because you can apply your passive quickly, but the truth is you need to constantly reposition and don't have time to sit there and auto, if they even let you get in range at all.

RalanrMar 21, 20171 votes

{quoted}

He seems like it takes long but it's pretty ok, you start with 3-4 stacks from the beginning with a combination of E, (run ahead of the target) AA, W, Q (AA), it's even easier to get full stacks if you can start with an AA.

When I first started playing Darius I used to think building attack speed is great because you can apply your passive quickly, but the truth is you need to constantly reposition and don't have time to sit there and auto, if they even let you get in range at all.

That's taking account his current attack speed though.

Now imagine it's lower. So low that you have to primarily rely on your abilities to get stacks and I think the stacks don't last long unless constantly applied.

BrascusMar 21, 20171 votes

He starts with 0.6 attack speed and goes up to 0.7-8 at level 18 unbuffed, which is more than enough, because you weave AA's between skills.

If you get a item 3742 it's like an extra W

RalanrMar 21, 20171 votes

{quoted}

He starts with 0.6 attack speed and goes up to 0.7-8 at level 18 unbuffed, which is more than enough, because you weave AA's between skills.

If you get a it's like an extra W

Yeah, so then I'd imagine his attack speed would be put to .5.

BrascusMar 21, 20171 votes

Which should be ok, considering the trade off

RalanrMar 21, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Which should be ok, considering the trade off

It seems stupid. He already has a trade off by not getting much AS in the first place.

BrascusMar 21, 20171 votes

The key here is telegraphing, essentially the longer the telegraph the greater the damage.

As attacks are highly telegraphed, heavy armor is worn to increase margin for error, since they only need a couple hits at most, but each attack is high risk without taking the proper opportunity.

OleandervineMar 21, 20172 votes

Why does being coated in armor make you deal more damage?

BrascusMar 21, 20171 votes

counter balance design

EschetonMar 21, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Why does being coated in armor make you deal more damage?

Because armor is heavy. More mass=more force=more damage.

That said, it could be interesting on like, 1 champ. But Thresh already sorta has thing going for him. Where his attack speed is reduced, but he gets more damage off souls, which adds both armor and ap.

BrascusMar 21, 20171 votes

It would work on Darius, Morde and Garen

I think this would be made a Keystone so champs like Rammus can be tanky without giving up necessary movespeed, and those who want to commit to the juggernaut playstyle can opt in

OleandervineMar 21, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Because armor is heavy. More mass=more force=more damage.

That said, it could be interesting on like, 1 champ. But Thresh already sorta has thing going for him. Where his attack speed is reduced, but he gets more damage off souls, which adds both armor and ap.

I'm not sure you understand how weight, mass, and armor coating in general works. If I take someone and put metal plates all over him, that increases his overall mass, yes. It also makes him sluggish and unable to maneuver. He won't be able to lift easily, and parts of the plating will hinder his range of motion due to the nature in plating. If the plating is too heavy for him, he can't lift at all, let alone hit someone harder unless he's trained with that much weight on him and can easily lift that many pounds/stones, whatever. This isn't a feasible or sensible method of translating the idea of strength into the game.

EschetonMar 22, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I'm not sure you understand how weight, mass, and armor coating in general works. If I take someone and put metal plates all over him, that increases his overall mass, yes. It also makes him sluggish and unable to maneuver. He won't be able to lift easily, and parts of the plating will hinder his range of motion due to the nature in plating. If the plating is too heavy for him, he can't lift at all, let alone hit someone harder unless he's trained with that much weight on him and can easily lift that many pounds/stones, whatever. This isn't a feasible or sensible method of translating the idea of strength into the game.

Tryndamere : "My right arm is a lot bigger than my left"

Critmaster GarenMar 21, 20171 votes

only one problem. armor is shit right now.

youd be forcing them to build into a cost ineffective defensive stat.

BrascusMar 21, 20171 votes

Armor being shit is a meta problem though, not a class concept problem. It feels pretty shit to build it right now even when it's a core item like item 3742 but hey get in touch with Riot about that.

BrascusMar 21, 20171 votes

If you want to turn this into an armor shred is out of control thread, you might as well, it will be buried soon

ScissorsNstuffMar 21, 20171 votes

negative stats irk people for whatever reason

BrascusMar 21, 20171 votes

That's true the way different people like different things. I don't mind it, and I guess the many folk who don heavy armor builds in DS don't mind it either.

This might also be why many ADC's cry after getting 1 shot in a full damage build ¯_(ツ)_/¯

ZephyrDrakeMar 21, 20171 votes

sorry but telegraph attacks in ANY game aren't because of stupid things like armor. It's because of the weapon they are choosing and whatever the skill is using. It would be stupid in a third person game to have Greatswords be just as fast as a short sword. League's so different from Dark Souls that you cannot even attempt to do things like this because it'll affect balance in such stupid ways that everyone will just start meta gaming to see what is the best amount of armor possible to still have decent enough movement and whatnot. telegraphed skills in league are because the skills themselves are telegraph which in turn makes it possible for those skills to be impactful and also very easy to get used to instead of randomly having your skills be more telegraphed just because of what you are building. Mobas require a lot of knowledge. You need to know so many things in every single MOBA and trying to learn a skill that is so inconsistent in how you expect it to behave should not be one of them.