Why Urgot is a great example of a modern Juggernaut concept

Malicious Metal··47 votes·4,684 views

Ah yes, Juggernauts. A subclass of Melee fighters this board likes to talk about, usually in relation to their power levels being rather low and how much they struggle in the current ecosystem of Summoner's Rift.

And of course they would. Back in 2015 when the Juggernaut rework was released and with Illaoi being underway, they were still able to do their job as a class. Keystone masteries weren't a thing and they were able to shine in a milieu where their damage and durability were truly their redeeming qualities.

But time has changed this, with Divers and even Tanks fulfilling their intended power fantasy better than any currently existing Juggernaut. Even strong Juggernauts like Yorick still fall short when it comes to their intended role as a secondary Carry-class champion, with a lot of them lacking strong late game power.

But there's one (or two, if you count Mordekaiser) that really delivers on the Juggernaut creed. A champion who provides his team with a semi-frontliner who loves to duke it out in the midst of the enemy team and brings everything you'd expect from a Juggernaut to the table in form of strong damage throughout the game as well as the survivability and team utility you need as a top laner.

I'm of course talking about our lord and savior; Urgot But why does this crab-legged abomination seem to be a nigh-perfect example of Juggernaut design?

Well, it's mostly because of 3 design factors that really make him stand out from the competition.

  1. Reliable late game Damage on a DPS basis Juggernauts are supposed to be damage threats, yet most of them just spike in the mid game and fall off a cliff late game because their damage is mostly bound to their abilities and thus usually comes in small, burst-like form. Urgot on the other hand, through his passive, has access to strong scaling damage that allows him to remain a threat through all stages of the game. Late game he gets a 2.5 second CD on his passive that deals strong base damage+ a heavy chunk of max hp AOE damage on a short cooldown. Unlike other Juggernauts not named Mordekaiser, he thus can function well in late game due to the target agnostic nature of his damage output, which is what Juggernauts should have in the first place.

Their access to the backline is limited and thus they're intended to just cleave their way through a team if left unchecked, which is hard for them to achieve due to the excessive amounts of CC and ranged damage that just shreds them. Urgot can circumvent this by being a huge frontline threat as well.

  1. His counterplay isn't just "stay out of range" Illaoi gets the perfect setup with her R, ready to destroy those foolish enough to challenge her...And everyone just walks out. Other Juggernauts don't have a lot of counterplay and ways to be outplayed other than keeping them at an arm's length. Urgot's counterplay is more intuitive than that, with him having moderate range (like Mordekaiser) and thus having a new layer for his enemies to play around. Delayed damage of his Q, the telegraphed E, his passive basically giving you the option to dance around him to avoid some of his damage and his R basically telling you to not let the target it's latched on fall below a quarter of their hp.

Him having range thus comes with more nuanced counterplay that's not as archaic in the success and failure scenarios like other Juggernaurs like Darius, Garen and Illaoi.

And 3) His effective range is more than just melee Juggernauts having limited range used to be one of their weaknesses, but in this state of League of Legends it's really just gimping their ability to be proactive and have agency over their own success scenarios. Juggernauts should retain their Immobile nature and lack of backline access as they're basically hulking colossi of the battlefield but restricting them to just a minor 200ish range really just makes them a threat to immobile melees than anything else. Mordekaiser and Urgot thus perform better simply because their effective range is around 400-500ish range, giving them more ways to actually apply their kit's value other than just brute forcing their way into melee range and desperately trying to make use of their abilities.

All in all I'd say for Juggernauts to succeed as a class design they should follow these 3 basic design principles:

  1. A scaling damage curve that keeps them relevant throughout the game and not just be early game bullies that foll off
  2. Have their damage output be bound to other factors than simply staying out of range, as this, once again, just makes them bullies without actual late game teamfight potential and 3. Give them more range rather than purely melee focused abilities as they already suffer from being immobile Melee champions.

Lowering their opressive nature of simply out statting other melees but giving them more intuitive ways to how they approach a situation is what they desperately need or else they'll stay the low elo stompers they are currently. And yes, this wouldn't be a MM thread if I wouldn't stress that this should be kept in mind when they rework Mordekaiser. Yes, sue me.

https://www2.pic-upload.de/img/34325690/08cbd530-8c2a-4e2f-b997-4ca0bdaf520d_1000x1000_scaled1.jpg

62 Comments

Meep Man13 votes

I actually think Yorick does probably the best out of all the Juggernauts since he has a role in the game other than "Im going to either shred the enemy team or die trying". He's a great split pusher and I think is another form of good Juggernaut design. He is less binary since he CAN participate in the game other than just running really angrily at the enemy team or standing beside his carry and hoping an Assassin dares. If I had to categorize Juggernauts into categories of how well designed they were, I would say:

Tier 1- Very Well Designed Pinnacle of Juggernaut design that fit their fantasy and can participate in a game in more ways than one. All are extremely satisfying to play as and, even when meta, no one really complains about them too much. All further Juggernauts and Juggernaut reworks should be made with these designs in mind. Nasus Shyvana Trundle Urgot Yorick

Tier 2- Decently Well Designed Decently designed as they perform their role and do so fairly reliably. However, they have a few frustrating design aspects that make them likely in need of future changes, albeit usually minor overall although some likely need reworks to modernize their kits. Chogath Darius Garen Olaf Udyr *Cho'Gath is overall decently designed, but a few items, namely Righteous Glory, have made him a poor champion to play against at times

Tier 3- Poorly Designed Have an overall bad design since they are very binary in nature and usually have how the match will play out decided in champion select. Can be played to decent effect if one tricked, but usually when they are meta... you really don't want them to be. DrMundo Illaoi Mordekaiser Skarner Volibear *Illaoi is questionable here, but I find her overall fitting for this space albeit not as severe as the other members of this tier

Tormentula11 votes

I agree with all of this except Shyvana, people forgot she even existed throughout most of season 7 and after her "rework" in season 6 she was overly dominate, got nerfed, and immediately fell back into nobody playing her.

Infact season 7 riven jungle had a consistently higher pickrate and winrate then shyvana.

Tbh, shy is just an old champ, she's not poorly designed her kit just hasn't aged well to keep up with the mobility and damage creep. S8 shy looks promising however, she has some pretty good statistics but Idk how she'd hold up to PTA nerf since they've been talking about it.

Also add Skarner to tier 3 (EDIT: aye)

Meep Man1 votes

I forgot about Skarner haha! I think it's because I usually remember him as a Vanguard instead of a Juggernaut.

I actually think Shyvana's current state is good. Just because she isn't played a lot doesn't mean she isn't a good design. She's not like Volibear to where she basically doesn't have a following. People one trick her and play her to decent effect. People forgot she existed because she wasn't the OP Jungle and usually everyone except the OP Jungle is "forgotten" when it comes to the Jungle role. After the on-hit clown fest got cut out of the game, Shyvana stabilized into a nice state to where only her fans really played her and that, in my opinion, is how it should be. Until a champion is meta, they shouldn't constantly be the thought of or talked about. They should have a following and that's it. Not every champion needs to be remembered 24/7 to be well designed. Heck, a champion could sit on the bench competitively for an entire season and still be well designed in my mind as long as they are fun to play as and against.

Z3Sleeper3 votes

Skarner in tier 3? I think he's better designed than people like to admit.

  • Instead of damage scaling into late game, his overall effectiveness scales (speed, tankiness & some damage)
  • Is effective at all stages of the game. Has decent pre-6 ganks and ofc post-6.
  • Has a ranged answer via his E and it's counterplayable.
  • Has a much clearer role than most Juggernauts. Think of what Darius does. Now think of what Skarner does. See the difference?

I've been a Juggernaut main for awhile and Skarner has been one of my favorites next to Yorick and Urgot.

SpecterVonBaren3 votes

No, Skarner is terribly designed as he is now.

Z3Sleeper2 votes

Still better than Darius imo.

Kloqdq5 votes

My problems come from both Shyv and Skarner Passives. Too much of their overall power is pushed into passive that are too conditional or gimmicky. They are cool in design but in practice, they are weak and hold the champions back.

Lil Homie busta12 votes

Nasus design is one of the worst in the game. What's good about a farming split push champion that destroys everything that's within his range WITHOUT no counterplay besides the obvious CC and "kill him fast" or "don't get close to him"?.

Urgot gives a decent amount of room to opponent interaction: you can dodge his stuffs and avoid him using all legs if you are close to a wall (similar to Fiora's vitals). The only thing Nasus can miss is his E, which let's be honest, is almost impossible to miss. If you fight with a bruiser against Urgot or Yorick, you have chance to win if you play right. Nasus simply murder everything with no interactivity or just get CC chained to death. That's doesn't sound like a good design.

I agree about Shyvana, Trundle, Urgot, Yorick, but Nasus is clearly a poor juggernaut design.

DeusVult4 votes

I disagree: Nasus has a weaker early game, a great mid game, and an average late game. Once he gets some stacks, its true, you can't really 1v1 him, but the same can be said about a lot of split push champs who get ahead. You have to fight him 2v1, and cc or kite him while a mage or ADC dps's him down. Late game, his teamfight is lackluster as he has no hard cc, and dies pretty fast on the front line. Its when he perma-splits and the other team can take an objective 4v5 that he does well.

Wobly1 votes

It used to be true that Nasus was a midgame champ. Then they changed his E to % armor shred from flat shred, and let him get double the use from his Q stacks while ulting, significantly shifting his power curve.

Now he's actually useful in teamfights as a front line, peeling tanks and divers off his carries with Wither and his significant damage output, and buffing both his and his ADC's damage against the enemy frontline with E. If you look at his stats here, you'll see that he's actually got his best winrate in games that go +40 minutes.

GayFluffyUnicorn2 votes

Except rito managed to completely break nasus so he doesn't need to have stacks, all he needs is to get level 6 and not be 0/5 and beats you with no counterplay. Before the new runes, corrupting potion/dshield masteries and his passive made it VERY hard to punish him in lane and get him away from farm especially because nasus players can sit back and do nothing while his opponent is FORCED to be aggressive and potentially walk into jungle ganks. Nasus is shit design, got broken by overbuffing for laningphase and sidelane management without fixing any of his issues so he still is a useless piece of shit in any decent elo and can only splitpush to inifinity and beyond.

Forhonor3212 votes

I have some disagreements with your statements. First, Nasus to me is more of a flawed design as a juggernaut. He's not strong early, requires quite amount of stacks to be great mid and then falls off later on. He's absolutely great at 1v1 thanks to said stacking, but team up on him or large amounts of kiting and he doesn't do so great. He also has little teamfight since he doesn't have any super hard CC on him and only is good at split pushing at that point.

Shyvana, as much as I love her, I don't think fits in with well designed. For the most part, yes her kit does work but in terms of being a juggernaut I've never seen this. Juggernauts, at least how I'd describe them, are suppose to be somewhat immoble, but have great damage and a decent amount of CC to make up for that. She, on the other hand, has no CC outside of her ult (which even then I feel is lackluster), is somewhat more mobile thanks to her W and does a shit ton of damage thanks to her whole kit but also removes any other pre-6 CC out from that because of her damage budget. Yes she has a following and is decent at the very least but as I see her now she's an odd mix of diver and juggernaut that doesn't really bring a whole lot to the team other than "lots o damage" and objective control. That plus her feast or famine passive.

Also, CHO'GATH IS NOT A JUGGERNAUT, HE'S A TANK!

SooFr0sty2 votes

From my understanding, juggs have little to no hard cc.

Shyvanna is classified as more of a diver as per her design and by Riot

Forhonor3211 votes

No, they still classify her as a Juggernaut, at least from the last time they talked about subclasses : https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/gameplay/taking-another-look-subclasses

I may be wrong though if they brought up the subject again and I didn't know about it.

SooFr0sty2 votes

{quoted}

No, they still classify her as a Juggernaut, at least from the last time they talked about subclasses : https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/gameplay/taking-another-look-subclasses

I may be wrong though if they brought up the subject again and I didn't know about it.

I looked it up and your right, but then on her mini rework they called her Half-dragon, half-diver so idk anymore lol

DragonShea1 votes

{quoted}

From my understanding, juggs have little to no hard cc.

Shyvanna is classified as more of a diver as per her design and by Riot

So Urgot is also a diver? Look just because a jugg has a dash doesn't mean they are a diver.

SooFr0sty2 votes

His design is more of a juggernaut, low mobility (outside his e), and a lot of damage.

PB4UAME3 votes

Cho is a special playstyle they call him. Certainly not a tank, and really a hybrid battle mage and juggernaut, if anything.

GayFluffyUnicorn6 votes

i think we should all agree and call cho "abomination".

Blackstone013 votes

Skarner isn't even classified as a Juggernaut anymore.

The Cane Master1 votes

{quoted}

I actually think Yorick does probably the best out of all the Juggernauts since he has a role in the game other than "Im going to either shred the enemy team or die trying". He's a great split pusher and I think is another form of good Juggernaut design. He is less binary since he CAN participate in the game other than just running really angrily at the enemy team or standing beside his carry and hoping an Assassin dares. If I had to categorize Juggernauts into categories of how well designed they were, I would say:

Tier 1- Very Well Designed Pinnacle of Juggernaut design that fit their fantasy and can participate in a game in more ways than one. All are extremely satisfying to play as and, even when meta, no one really complains about them too much. All further Juggernauts and Juggernaut reworks should be made with these designs in mind. Nasus

Are you serious? The guy has been released in 2009, with no Gameplay Updates (reworks) so far, has only one skillshot, the rest of his abilities are press-to-use or point-to-click, there is no way of differentiating micro game of bad Nasus player vs a good Nasus player, he is way one-dimensional, thus very much countered by item 3076 item 3165 and item 3123 , has 1v1 winning potential pre 6 no matter how well played, no mobility nor hard CC, gets kited while being useless, 0% competitive pick rate for 4+ years (disregarding a few games over that many years), predictive and rigid gameplay thus also boring to play with as well as against etc. This comes from a 1 million mastery Nasus OTP.

Slich Bissi1 votes

What is Singed? He's certainly not a tank. He doesn't have the hard CC required to be in that category. He has a displacement and a slow, then just runs fast and spews mediocre to severe damage over time.

chipndip17 votes

If Urgot is the idea of a strong juggernaut design, juggernauts as a class need more help than I ever imagined.

Azadethe5 votes

I have a question. Why do you keep referring to "Juggernauts" as "low damage?"

Juggernauts are many things, but low damage isn't one of them.

They are high damage, high sustain, high tanky, but low speed.

Almost every juggernaut is a high damage, oppressive laner who has a harassment tool that can make people choose between csing and dying. They are oppressive in 1v1's and can even control a team fight. BUT, they tend to be slower, and faster champs can work around them as a team and delete them as a group.

Stop referring to them as low damage when they can basically build a Black Cleaver and all tank, and still deal 60k damage a game. They have better AD scaling than AD glass cannons do to compensate for the fact they are expected to build tanky.

But ..... then you look at AD Udyr, Sion, or Darius and how insane those builds are. The most cancerous Garen I've seen is a Lethality Garen with Trinity and Infinite Edge. He has the tenacity and move speed to use his spin on lethality and just delete people, because that kit was built with tanking in mind. Sion is commonly building Duskblade now, to take advantage of Sion's Q and R damage being some of the largest scaling in the game. it's not that Tank Sion won't work; in fact they average about a 2.5 KDA; it's that lethality Sion just makes tanking trivial when Q scales 340% AD at full charge.

And then you look at Darius. If he manages to get 5 stacks on a target he gains an unrestrained 30-200 BONUS AD for 5 sec in addition to up to a 500% damage bleed. That's low damage? Wtf? On Noxian Might with a Sterak's and a Black Cleaver Darius has 450 AD. Low damage?

This isn't even including the fact that current runes boost AD more than they ever have before..... I had a 4 Black Cleaver 1 Frozen Mallet + Jungle item Lee Sin yesterday have 521 AD.

If you're going to argue in defense of your niche interest, at least know those champs and label them correctly. Slow, but High damage and High Tankiness (In Garen's case he's also fast, and on some Darius builds, he's also fast).

Shuriman Curator5 votes

{quoted}

I have a question. Why do you keep referring to "Juggernauts" as "low damage?"

Juggernauts are many things, but low damage isn't one of them.

They are high damage, high sustain, high tanky, but low speed.

Almost every juggernaut is a high damage, oppressive laner who has a harassment tool that can make people choose between csing and dying. They are oppressive in 1v1's and can even control a team fight. BUT, they tend to be slower, and faster champs can work around them as a team and delete them as a group.

Stop referring to them as low damage when they can basically build a Black Cleaver and all tank, and still deal 60k damage a game. They have better AD scaling than AD glass cannons do to compensate for the fact they are expected to build tanky.

But ..... then you look at AD Udyr, Sion, or Darius and how insane those builds are. The most cancerous Garen I've seen is a Lethality Garen with Trinity and Infinite Edge. He has the tenacity and move speed to use his spin on lethality and just delete people, because that kit was built with tanking in mind. Sion is commonly building Duskblade now, to take advantage of Sion's Q and R damage being some of the largest scaling in the game. it's not that Tank Sion won't work; in fact they average about a 2.5 KDA; it's that lethality Sion just makes tanking trivial when Q scales 340% AD at full charge.

And then you look at Darius. If he manages to get 5 stacks on a target he gains an unrestrained 30-200 BONUS AD for 5 sec in addition to up to a 500% damage bleed. That's low damage? Wtf? On Noxian Might with a Sterak's and a Black Cleaver Darius has 450 AD. Low damage?

This isn't even including the fact that current runes boost AD more than they ever have before..... I had a 4 Black Cleaver 1 Frozen Mallet + Jungle item Lee Sin yesterday have 521 AD.

If you're going to argue in defense of your niche interest, at least know those champs and label them correctly. Slow, but High damage and High Tankiness (In Garen's case he's also fast, and on some Darius builds, he's also fast).

Darius R scales with bonus AD not Total, Steraks gives his q a good damage boost but doesn't affect his R.

He also sucks ass right now.

Tortunga3 votes

Overall a great post, but I got some remarks and a question for you.

First the remarks

  1. I don't think damage is the problem for most juggernauts, even in the late game, as when allowed they can deal high amount of constant DPS. Even with Urgots passive, he is still somewhat reliant on his Purge cooldown to really get the most out of it. And besides other juggernauts have a way to increase their DPS as well; Darius can get 200 extra AD from his passive, and Garen has the whole Villain mechanic (It changes when the Villian dies right?) for example. They might not be on the same level as Urgots constant DPS, but if allowed most juggernauts can deal a reasonable amount of damage.

The reason their damage just feels non-existent in the late game, is because of the other two points you made. They just cannot do anything meaningful in a team fight, as they are getting kited around, or being exploded in a couple seconds (Most juggernauts feel a lot squishier than Urgot).

  1. Giving them more counterplay then just 'Stay out of range' would be nice, but isn't a requirement to be honest. Most champions got pretty straight forward main counterplay mechanic, like stay together against an assassin, don't group up to much against an Oriana, etc. I don't think every juggernaut needs ton of counterplay options like Urgot does.

Now the question;

Do you think most of the problem Juggernauts are facing can be fixed with just some buffs here and there, and at most a new Keystone or two, or will it require complete rework for all of them again?

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

I would refrain from buffing too much because those tend to throw things out of wack. Number buffs aren't going to change the fact that Darius WILL get kited to death by a tristana or ezreal, but number buffs WILL make him unbearable to play against if you are a melee top laner that doesn't have as much lenience in the "just stay out of range of him". The current design philosophy of juggernauts (high damage/bulk at the cost of being easily kited) makes them super good in anything low elo because no one is going to kite them and chances are the enemy top laner is going to take the worst trades imagineable. Anything above that and they will NEVER reach their target usually (unless they actively take things like old Ghost+Flash+SRS Darius which had its own downsides such as no TP) and will get counterpicked super hard (you aren't guaranteed to pick after your lane opponent every game) and not be able to actively trade with their opponent (the enemy top laner will give up CS and just freeze the jugg on his side and just get ganks constantly).

DragonShea3 votes

Both Urgot and Yorick are pretty mechanical juggs then you think about it. Not only are they tough beasts of war but their abilities requires you to think how you are gonna use them and be smart about how to fight. Yorick's Wall can screw over immobile champs or those that have their dash/blinks on CD, Urgot can displace his targets to put then in a bad position. And those two have decent follow up on their attack. Get a Q or E to land, they can then start to purge or ghoul the shit out of their target. And both of their ult will make people go OH SHIT

Hell in regards to Urgot. HIs Ult can even be used to CC a Target so faster and more mobile teammates can catch up and kill them should Urgot's Ult expire before he can execute them. Yorick's E can also chuck ghouls above tanks and they'll be like, WTF?!

Many of the other Juggs don't have abilities that can reach behind enemy lines like the OP said and that really is why they are good. They want to brawl with people, but they also have some means to make their weaknesses less deliberating.

Kuzja13 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0cKebPu9,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-11-19T17:47:19.047+0000)

https://www2.pic-upload.de/img/34325690/08cbd530-8c2a-4e2f-b997-4ca0bdaf520d_1000x1000_scaled1.jpg

And that's how this: https://eune.leagueoflegends.com/sites/default/files/styles/scale_xlarge/public/upload/urgot_battlecast_splash_final_0.jpg?itok=4qZKqS4b Came to existence

Sasogwa2 votes

I feel one of the reasons juggs feel weak is the nerf of bc from up to 30% armor shred to 24% armor shred. I feel like it should be 7 stacks max instead of 6, slightly longer to fully stack but giving 28% armor shred. It might buff urgot a bit much but eh.. Bc is a big asset for most juggs to have a powerful lategame scaling.

What do you think about Nasus though? I feel he fulfills the mid-lategame jugg fantasy fairly well. With his R %max health + q spam with 35% armor shred on E, I think he really delivers. The counterplay is slightly lacking, apart from "just kite" but that's also compensated by his abusability early on.

Azadethe2 votes

getting a BC buff is going to be a really hard sell with Transcendence.

Sasogwa2 votes

{quoted}

getting a BC buff is going to be a really hard sell with Transcendence.

yeaaaaah just make cdr a unique passive and we're set

Azadethe1 votes

perhaps. Although it's still effectively currently a 64 AD item with transcendence, and there are plenty of other items with high CDR on "Juggernauts"

Tormentula2 votes

https://i.imgur.com/aiPhdO7.jpgno?redirect

I mean don't get me wrong urgot is probably the best designed juggernaut but that's assuming the weight of the name "juggernaut" isn't keeping him down. However urgot hasn't really been meta for awhile and he was meta for 1 patch with a 2% pick rate and apparently got nerfed or called "too strong" for it.

I don't even know what the hell skarner is anymore, he went from juggernaut to vanguard.

Juggernauts as a class in its own is just really awful. They do damage + are tanky and tjhey have to be balanced between the attributes of a tank and a diver for that reason, which then results in why are you even playing them when you can just play those, which often carry some mobility as a bonus which is a common weakness for juggernauts. (and sometimes the tanks are doing enough damage)

redniwediS2 votes

Right after the Juggernaut update I was really excited for my main, Garen. I felt he was in a decent enough spot before hand, with his super heal 16+ passive and ability to do what he has always done; be reliable. Sure he didn't do great in the late game, but he was a mid game champ. The Juggernaut update was going to give him some late game power and it sounded decent enough.

Then I realized he got that power by losing some of his early game strength, as well as a full second lost on his silence. He still did great, but then the nerfs came in. He lost 33% of his damage on his AoE when he uses it as an AoE, then he lost some speed because he was "too fast" to be a juggernaut (thanks Dead Mans...) and finally his most purchased boots got a nerf because other champion types started buying them.

I honestly miss the days before the Juggernaut update. I miss when Garen was considered a Fighter and could do things without being kited left and right. I know even reverting him back to his pre-juggernaut state wouldn't fix that, but I do miss those days.

PB4UAME1 votes

They also lowered his base MS, and decreased the time he gets his MS buff for, and lowered the values on it, and nerfed his damage and scaling to add in the useless villain mechanic that the enemy team has more agency over than you do.

Zero Skill Tank2 votes

Even strong Juggernauts like Yorick still fall short when it comes to their intended role as a secondary Carry-class champion, with a lot of them lacking strong late game power.

Yorick does exactly what his design and fantasy demand him to. He is weaker or stronger depending on patch, but he doesn't 'fall short' to do anything he was "intended" to od.

Juggs being a 'carry class' is your personal dream, it's perfectly fine for (some) of them to function differently than you imagine.


But yeah, Urgot is super cool.

I'd add to the list that his positioning is more limited than simply 'being melee and having no gapcloser' like outdated juggs (Darius, Mordekaiser ) function, vital parts of his kit limit his movements further, something common in modern jugg deisgns (Yorick Illaoi ), but Urgot has this trait BY FAR the most pronounced.

PB4UAME2 votes

Juggs being a 'carry class' is your personal dream, it's perfectly fine for (some) of them to function differently than you imagine.

Yeah, no. RIOT themselves have come out and said, multiple times now, that Juggeranuts are a class of melee carries. They trade range, mobility, safety and target acquisition for tankiness and sustain, but they are still, fundamentally, melee carry champions.

Zero Skill Tank1 votes

The idea of a carry who's main weakness is lack of target access is completely backwards.

PB4UAME1 votes

Is it? Something that destroys anything in its range sure does sound a lot like marksman. This is that same idea, focused onto a smaller scale. Now there is way more counterplay to it, and ways to play against it, but its the same basic premise, only more restricted.

Doozku2 votes

I'd say one more thing to note is that the most successful juggernauts, both now and in history, were the ones who can hold their own late game and don't fall off like bricks. Urgot is good late game, and while Mordekaiser isn't a lategame god, he's considerably stronger lategame than many other Juggernauts. Even Darius before he got nerfed was actually pretty good lategame especially if he was slightly ahead. I think that part of the problem with Juggernauts is that since they need to build almost full tank they end up losing out on a lot of damage, especially against tanks, that they need to succeed in their intended role in teamfights. I mean look at Illoai. She seems like a teamfight god on paper with all of those tentacles to do damage, but in practice as a Juggernaut she's going to have an incredibly difficult time getting to squishies with her tentacles, while she lacks the tools to deal with tanks lategame. Sure, she is a lane bully, but I think Juggs should be pretty good throughout the entirety of the game, like the aforementioned Urgot and Mordekaiser.

ZT Xperimentor2 votes

You forgot something that makes juggernauts more than just another fighter, durability of some kind. Urgot and mordekaiser have shields, darius and illaoi have sustain. They're more like a bruiser; trading mobility and crowd control, for durability and damage.

Teridax682 votes

I very much agree with this assessment. Here are my thoughts on the conclusion:

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0cKebPu9,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-11-19T17:47:19.047+0000)

  1. A scaling damage curve that keeps them relevant throughout the game and not just be early game bullies that foll off

I agree with this, and I think juggernauts should have damage on par with marksmen (in fact, I think all DPS classes should have around the same damage output). I think it's worth adding, however, that the issue with juggernaut scaling isn't just with their damage, but also their durability: juggernauts still share much of their defensive itemization with tanks, and tanks have been framed around having their durability mostly peak early-mid and fall off late. Because of this, juggernauts also follow a similar tankiness curve, and end up lacking much of the survivability they need to do well in late-game teamfights. Personally, I also think tanks should be more durable overall, but juggernauts at the very least need to have both their damage and durability scale properly to the late game.

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0cKebPu9,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-11-19T17:47:19.047+0000)

  1. Have their damage output be bound to other factors than simply staying out of range, as this, once again, just makes them bullies without actual late game teamfight potential

Agree with this 100%. The fatal flaw of the entire Juggernaut Update is that it redesigned juggernauts around having only one single weakness, namely kiting, and that has made them far too binary in how they interact with melee and ranged classes. Juggernauts should always be slow and telegraphed, but they should also have at least some baseline amount of reliability in how they can affect their opponents, as well as some baseline counterplay even when they're in melee range as well. With every juggernaut (and every champion, really), Riot should be asking themselves two questions: 1) "How can this champion reach their opponent?", and 2) "How can this champion's opponent outplay them at melee range?". Both of these are critical to shaping the gameplay of juggernauts, and unfortunately haven't really been answered satisfyingly on most members of the subclass.

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0cKebPu9,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-11-19T17:47:19.047+0000)

and 3. Give them more range rather than purely melee focused abilities as they already suffer from being immobile Melee champions.

Also agree completely. Giving juggernauts more opportunities to reach ranged targets would be a good way to shift power away from just raw stats, and in this respect I think Illaoi in particular could fare a lot better, were she allowed to control her tentacles more consistently in exchange for losing her one-shot potential at point-blank range. Mordekaiser I think is another juggernaut who deserves to have lots of range on his abilities, as he's part-battle mage and is known for having reach on his E and R at the very least (and previously his Q, too). I think Riot unfortunately still has some ways to go in how they work on melee interactions, as their repertoire is fairly limited and often doesn't really consider melee range at all, particularly when it comes to skillshots, which are undodgeable at point-blank range. Telegraphed abilities could help, but pseudo-enrage timers like Darius's innate, or some other mechanic that gives massive rewards for prolonged fighting, could cement the effectiveness of juggernauts in extended fights, while making them weaker in short skirmishes.

Adding to this, I think we're also going to have to end up making a clear separation between juggernauts and battle mages, as there isn't all that much distinction already: juggernauts are defined by a) short range, b) durability, c) AoE DPS, and d) inferior CC, and battle mages are defined by a) short range (for a mage, anyway), b) durability (relative to other mages), c) AoE DPS, and d) inferior CC (again, relative to other mages). As juggernauts gain more target access, which will inevitably happen in order for them to become viable, these boundaries will become increasingly blurred, and Riot will have to make a decision on whether they want to create better separation (e.g. by making battle mages more CC-heavy/bursty/squishy and juggernauts more oriented towards tanky DPS), or whether they want to accept that both subclasses are more or less the same in their outputs and strength-weakness profiles.

Rebonack1 votes

I'm likely in a minority in that I've been playing Kog'Maw more or less like a Juggernaut since early Season 2, give or take. His powerful base damage, %HP OnHit, nasty resist shred, and potent Ult can all lay on the hurt with a relatively minor investment in offense itemization. Kog with Wit's End and full tank gear can go toe to toe with most of the game's Marksmen and come out on top. In addition, Kog arguably has the strongest Taunt in the game. People will dive him deep and get sad when he doesn't pop.

In terms of design, he's pretty straight forward. Push W and basic attack people. Start lobbing Ults between basic attacks once your target of choice is below 40% health. A good chunk of his damage can be avoided due to his Q and R, but I don't think that's quite as visceral for the person on the receiving end as dodging Urgot's shotgun knees is.

Lock On1 votes

Because being able to outdamage a marksman while building full tank and a black cleaver is healthy.

PB4UAME7 votes

First of all, no juggernaut will EVER out damage an even marksman.

Marksmen build crit + crit damage + AD + AS + armor pen.

Juggernauts can barely afford to get AD on their HP items, and at most get BC for some minor shred, that also benefits their ADC and other physical damage dealers on their team.

With the way auto attacks work in this game, and the formula behind it, nothing can touch late-game marksmens' burst per second.

However, if Juggernauts could reach similar levels of damage while remaining tanky enough to wade through the front line, and stay in combat for a good 5-20 seconds (that they absolutely NEED) so they can actually live long enough to get some of that damage off, the game would be in a much healthier state.

They trade range, safety, mobility, escapes and target acquistion all for some defense and a bit of sustain. It's quite an unfair trade off actually, that leaves juggernauts sorely disadvantaged compared to ranged AD carries (marksmen); despite the fact that both archetypes are supposed to be AD carries.

DragonShea3 votes

{quoted}

First of all, no juggernaut will EVER out damage an an even marksman.

Marksmen build crit + crit damage + AD + AS + armor pen.

Juggernauts can barely afford to get AD on their HP items, and at most get BC for some minor shred, that also benefits their ADC and other physical damage dealers on their team.

With the way auto attacks work in this game, and the formula behind it, nothing can touch late-game marksmens' burst per second.

However, if Juggernauts could reach similar levels of damage while remaining tanky enough to wade through the front line, and stay in combat for a good 5-20 seconds (that they absolutely NEED) so they can actually live long enough to get some of that damage off, the game would be in a much healthier state.

They trade range, safety, mobility, escapes and target acquistion all for some defense and a bit of sustain. It's quite an unfair trade off actually, that leaves juggernauts sorely disadvantaged compared to ranged AD carries 9marksmen); despite the fact that both archetypes are supposed to be AD carries.

The issue is that there ADC's will bitch if their damage is not the best or if they get deleted for mispositioning. That said. Juggs are supposed to survive in the thick of things just like tanks are supposed to. Instead of them doing the disrupting or peeling, they are all about the damage and it should be like that. Problem is, some tanks have good damage and it can disrupt the dynamic of what it means to be a juggernaut. Look at Sej and Rammus and formerly zac, they have good damage and they can do a juggs job better if they are OP or broken.

Another issue is that juggs should have to worry about poke damage or having a little less current HP than normal because of their sustain and durability, that fact juggs have to even worry about their durability even when they are even or ahead is a sad thing. the only time they should be worried is when they are behind or dealing with an anti tank champion like Vayne or the maw.

E Man forever1 votes

One thing I also noticed is how juggernauts also need special conditions for their damage to shine which I find interesting in design.

Darius needs to stack his passive to get going in a fight in a hard to reach but easy to maintain style.

Nasus needs stacks to obtain his damage and even then could easily be kited.

Also would Shyvana be considered a juggernaut or a bruiser. Though I did remember Riot stating that Shyvana was a juggernaut that had a reliable way to get to her target.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

Thanks for an engaging thought experiment and an in-depth analysis of a class. Love these posts!

Tactical Barrels1 votes

"I'm stronger than man, stronger than machine".

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